The "Keep Hope Alive" (that the rights can revert back to Marvel) thread - Part 7

[Whiskey Tango]

I believe I can go and see any movie that I choose to see, and report that here on this site. I can choose to spend my money any way that I want. Never once did I say I would eat it up, enjoy it a little, enjoy it a lot. I'm interested to see what they do with it. Could it be a "trainwreck mentality" on my part...sure. That is no business of yours....There is nothing wrong with that, and you call me a troll again because of my choice, and I'll ban you.

I personally don't care one way or the other if someone else sees it. It just means they hate the idea of it less than I do. And there is plenty wiggle room there because I hate it *a lot*.

 

[Ragnaroknroll]

I know what I'm going to do but I certainly can't tell other people what to do. The film will stand or fall on its own merits or lack thereof. I've seen an unprecedented amount of hate online towards this film but will it all end up as just a bunch of noise? Who knows? But I will admit I'm very curious to see what actually ends up happening. The only thing I'll be grabbing my popcorn for is watching the box office figures. If it ends up being a hit well then Fox can pretty much use this as the opening logo sequence:

http://youtu.be/pfN3r6LHLD0

 

[justanotherguy]

So I know the book and the film are "totally unreltated" but here is what James Robinson current writer for the F4 had to say on the end of the book

On whether or not "Fantastic Four" is coming to an end: Yes. This is what I will say, is that when I started this book there were some people that were open to it, but there was a lot of negativity. Because I heard "Oh god James Robinson is going to do this dark depressing Fantastic Four book. Who cares, that's not what we want. And I think I surprised everybody in that the book is still, I think, a pretty good Fantastic Four book. It has all those elements we like about the book.

There's definitely been a ground swell of people that have gone "Oh you know, this is actually a good book." Leonard Kirk's artwork is wonderful. A the end of the day, nobody that likes the Fantastic Four will have a bad taste in their mouth. That's all I can say. I'm not going to let anybody down. I'm not going to leave this book on a bad note. I love these characters.

On fair-weather fans, and the way they come out of the wood-works when status quos change: That's the thing. Everyone's upset now because the book is going away, but where are those? Are they buying the book? I don't know if they are. A lot of it is people just like to get online and moan and complain. I guarantee you, if you kill off any character—the most obscure character, there will be one angry person that claims that was their favorite character. Jack Frost, golden age character, "Oh my god they've done something to him. Where's the razor blades I'm slashing my wrists." People like to do that on the Internet, so you have to obviously sometimes take that with a grain of salt.

His run has been pretty well received, although I'm not update on it. I thought this could be useful to both sides here.

http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=56812

 

[Dr Tactics]

So I know the book and the film are "totally unreltated" but here is what James Robinson current writer for the F4 had to say on the end of the book




His run has been pretty well received, although I'm not update on it. I thought this could be useful to both sides here.

http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=56812

Well if Marvel had any confidence in this film, they would have welcomed the Film bump for sales of the FF comics (like Most CBM's titles relative to print sales). But this movie is looking like a trashwreck so why continue to publish a FF comic when this film most likely not do anything to increase future sales? This "Grounded & Gritty" film with this (Mis)cast bears no resemblance to the FF to the comics?

Thanks to Trank and Co FFINO, Marvel would just be killing more trees if it weren't cancelled.

 

[Kelly]

I personally don't care one way or the other if someone else sees it. It just means they hate the idea of it less than I do. And there is plenty wiggle room there because I hate it *a lot*.

I hate it for long term F4 fans like yourself and others here...I know how much you guys have wanted, and how long you have waited for a great F4 movie....as for myself, I certainly wish we could be looking forward to a great F4 movie. But, I enjoy going to see movies, all kinds, etc...I ALSO, want to be able to OFFICIALLY slam the movie and say that I have seen it when I come back on these boards to talk about it.

 

[Spiderdevil]

It seems silly to me for anyone who is complaining about the F4's treatment to still go and pay for it at the theaters. I will not pay for this movie. FOX will not burn me again on comic films. I paid for another movie and saw DOFP because I didn't trust FOX and Singer and I hate the way they have handled the XMEN. Their are just too many deviations and liberties from the comic for my tastes and characters that are just in name only. Kitty Pride can now send someone's mind through time? WTF?? It was a good film but not a good xmen film. Fox didn't get credit for my ticket purchase. Sometimes we have to stand our ground as fans to send the studio a message. Even if we don't get the desired result we are enough to make a difference even if it is small. So we sit it out and F4 makes 100 million as opposed to a 150 million as an example. I would love to say I don't see this movie making a 100 mil but you never know and i'm sure FOX is going to be flashing that Marvel movie logo as much as they can for a big opening weekend.

I am sure you saw GoTG,and I am sure you loved it
But the character of Starlord and Drax are completely different from their comic book version,Marvel takes as much liberties as other studios,may more.They changed the entire personality of Tony Stark for example

But they are immune to criticism just because their characters weren't that famous among CBM fans and most people don't even realize how much liberties they have taken

 

[Dark Raven]

I hate it for long term F4 fans like yourself and others here...I know how much you guys have wanted, and how long you have waited for a great F4 movie....as for myself, I certainly wish we could be looking forward to a great F4 movie. But, I enjoy going to see movies, all kinds, etc...I ALSO, want to be able to OFFICIALLY slam the movie and say that I have seen it when I come back on these boards to talk about it.

But maybe that's what Fox are counting on and what MBJ is talking about. They just want you to go see their movie anyway even if it is for the sole purpose of officially slamming it, because at least they'll have gotten your money for the opening weekend or so and made back a profit of sorts.

Then they can spin it in their favour and say that all these people did go and see it as predicted, especially FF fans.

Newsrama should write a new article advocating that method on Fox's behalf:

1. Go see the movie for yourself
2. Savage it
3. Report back to other fans on how bad it was
4. Tell them to repeat steps 1-4
5. Make Fox happy in knowing you gave them your money even if it was for this reason.


6. Kick yourself later (but this falls out of Fox's 5-step plan and is merely one for you to do at home, hence why we don't draw attention to it!).

 

[Dark Raven]

It seems silly to me for anyone who is complaining about the F4's treatment to still go and pay for it at the theaters. I will not pay for this movie. FOX will not burn me again on comic films. I paid for another movie and saw DOFP because I didn't trust FOX and Singer and I hate the way they have handled the XMEN. Their are just too many deviations and liberties from the comic for my tastes and characters that are just in name only. Kitty Pride can now send someone's mind through time? WTF?? It was a good film but not a good xmen film. Fox didn't get credit for my ticket purchase. Sometimes we have to stand our ground as fans to send the studio a message. Even if we don't get the desired result we are enough to make a difference even if it is small. So we sit it out and F4 makes 100 million as opposed to a 150 million as an example. I would love to say I don't see this movie making a 100 mil but you never know and i'm sure FOX is going to be flashing that Marvel movie logo as much as they can for a big opening weekend.

I believe that aspect of her powers is in the original comic. Kitty is able to phase her body into her younger self, so she is the one who effectively "transfers her mind" into herself and is the time traveller. In the X-Men animated cartoon, it is Bishop who goes back (without being phased) so that is changed, and for the movie they retain the phasing aspect and also the idea of someone else going back instead of Kitty, similar to the cartoon. So it's not really that much of a deviation or a WTF moment, since it has precedent in the comic version of DOFP.

With FFINO, it looks like it's going to be more of a case of counting what isn't a deviation.

 

[Willie Lumpkin]

But maybe that's what Fox are counting on and what MBJ is talking about. They just want you to go see their movie anyway even if it is for the sole purpose of officially slamming it, because at least they'll have gotten your money for the opening weekend or so and made back a profit of sorts.

Whether they think that or not, it would be a pretty foolish strategy. The number of people who are as knowledgeable about the FF and care as much as those of us who post regularly on this board has to be so small that it won't be a blip in terms of box office.

I think, rationally, Fox should focus on one of two strategies:

1. Go after the hard-core and more casual FF fans (more casual being ones who don't follow the FF closely but know them from reading other comic books and getting brief glimpses in crossovers, ads, etc. and/or people who have seen a cartoon or two and/or people who have seen a previous movie.)


2. Go after a broader general audience.

If they want to go after group #1, they should create something that is recognizable to that group. Since many of the casual fans don't know a lot about the details of the characters, some of those can be changed, but the broader look and feel of the characters should be familiar to anyone who has encountered them.

If they want to go after group #2, they should spend some time and money marketing and bring in some big-name stars.

But they don't seem to be doing anything that would bring either of those groups in.

Bottom line: To even try to ascribe logical reasons for why Fox is doing what they're doing is probably foolish. They don't seem to know themselves.

 

[Dr Tactics]

I am sure you saw GoTG,and I am sure you loved it
But the character of Starlord and Drax are completely different from their comic book version,Marvel takes as much liberties as other studios,may more.They changed the entire personality of Tony Stark for example

But they are immune to criticism just because their characters weren't that famous among CBM fans and most people don't even realize how much liberties they have taken

I think this is interesting point. Out of all the changes Marvel made have been mostly well received (outside of the Mandarin which I feel was changed to appeal to Shane Blacks wishes and not Marvels) and when Fox (Even Sony) changes things they're slammed. Is it Marvel fanboys excusing Marvels changes and double standard like slam any other studio for changes?

I see this. Marvel seems to improve upon their characters while Fox and Sony just... Change them (for the sake of change pretty much)

Kind of like Kirkmans changes he makes with the Walking Dead TV series vs the Comic book as its TV counterpart is like a "remixed version" to the comics. So likewise Marvel takes its characters base/source material then asks what can we improve on being we have the opportunity to do it without being beholden to Comic Book Cannon but respect to keeping the core aspects of the characteristics in place.

Fox (Singer,Kinburg, Trank and co.) as we know doesn't care. They'll just change a character and a story based on their artistic freedom to tell the story they want to tell with little to no regard of the source material. Then (Fox apologists) wonder, why all the backlash one way and not the other?

Its less important on how you make changes and more important on WHY.

This is why IMO the "Marvel made changes too" is such a weak counter argument

 

[Willie Lumpkin]

[/b]

I think this is interesting point. Out of all the changes Marvel made have been mostly well received (outside of the Mandarin which I feel was changed to appeal to Shane Blacks wishes and not Marvels) and when Fox (Even Sony) changes things they're slammed. Is it Marvel fanboys excusing Marvels changes and double standard like slam any other studio for changes?

I see this. Marvel seems to improve upon their characters while Fox and Sony just... Change them (for the sake of change pretty much)

Kind of like Kirkmans changes he makes with the Walking Dead TV series vs the Comic book as its TV counterpart is like a "remixed version" to the comics. So likewise Marvel takes its characters base/source material then asks what can we improve on being we have the opportunity to do it without being beholden to Comic Book Cannon but respect to keeping the core aspects of the characteristics in place.

Fox (Singer,Kinburg, Trank and co.) as we know doesn't care. They'll just change a character and a story based on their artistic freedom to tell the story they want to tell with little to no regard of the source material. Then (Fox apologists) wonder, why all the backlash one way and not the other?

Its less important on how you make changes and more important on WHY.

This is why IMO the "Marvel made changes too" is such a weak counter argument

I think you have to start with the Superheroes looking like the superheroes (physically and in terms of costume) and the Superheroes need to have the same powers, personalities, occupations and major defining characteristics. Marvel does a pretty good job of maintaining those key points that most people associate with the characters before changing smaller details. If Iron Man has blue and purple armor, that's a problem. If Jarvis is a computer instead of a person, no big deal to all but hard-core fans.

If Ben has a girlfriend named Jenny who isn't blind, I'm not going to be leading a torch and pitchfork brigade.

But when you cast someone who doesn't look like Reed and has a completely wrong personality and you make Reed, Ben and Johnny all the same ages and you cast someone for Ben who doesn't look vaguely like him and you give Doom powers and you give the main characters containment suits instead of costumes etc. etc. etc. you're going to end up with something that doesn't even resemble the characters most people know, and that's when broad numbers of fans (not just a handful of sticklers) either get pissed off or lose interest.

 

[Ragnaroknroll]

I am sure you saw GoTG,and I am sure you loved it
But the character of Starlord and Drax are completely different from their comic book version,Marvel takes as much liberties as other studios,may more.They changed the entire personality of Tony Stark for example

But they are immune to criticism just because their characters weren't that famous among CBM fans and most people don't even realize how much liberties they have taken

I read the Abnett Lanning run of GOTG a while back and maybe my memory is hazy but I sure felt like Gunn totally captured the spirit of that comic. Tony Stark is definitely different but it's an upgrade from the Tony Stark I was used to. Along with Peter Quill Marvel has found a way to make these guys extremely likable characters. I don't see how that's a bad thing.

I'm totally ok with taking certain liberties, adding dimension or traits to characters as long as the core traits stay the same. The changes just add some more depth - sometimes in surprisingly entertaining ways. Honestly, that is what has won me over on the Marvel films - along with continuity, world building, not being ashamed of their comic roots and just pure fun factor - the thing I enjoy most are the characters. They really feel like they leap right off the page. Not only personalities but aesthetically as well. And with comics being a visual medium that means a lot to me.

But it's not just Marvel that's done a good job with this (although they do it far more consistently) - e.g. I have really enjoyed Jackman as Wolverine and both McKellan and Fassbender as Magneto. Their overuse and the fact that other characters are neglected or suffer as a result is what bugs me. And especially when some of those other characters are grossly misrepresented.

 

[Docker2.0]

I read the Abnett Lanning run of GOTG a while back and maybe my memory is hazy but I sure felt like Gunn totally captured the spirit of that comic. Tony Stark is definitely different but it's an upgrade from the Tony Stark I was used to. Along with Peter Quill Marvel has found a way to make these guys extremely likable characters. I don't see how that's a bad thing.

I'm totally ok with taking certain liberties, adding dimension or traits to characters as long as the core traits stay the same. The changes just add some more depth - sometimes in surprisingly entertaining ways. Honestly, that is what has won me over on the Marvel films - along with continuity, world building, not being ashamed of their comic roots and just pure fun factor - the thing I enjoy most are the characters. They really feel like they leap right off the page. Not only personalities but aesthetically as well. And with comics being a visual medium that means a lot to me.

But it's not just Marvel that's done a good job with this (although they do it far more consistently) - e.g. I have really enjoyed Jackman as Wolverine and both McKellan and Fassbender as Magneto. Their overuse and the fact that other characters are neglected or suffer as a result is what bugs me. And especially when some of those other characters are grossly misrepresented.

I agree. The GoG movie seems to be Abnett's run from the comics come to life. I don't know how anyone can say they deviated way off from the comics.

 

[starscream22]

I am sure you saw GoTG,and I am sure you loved it
But the character of Starlord and Drax are completely different from their comic book version,Marvel takes as much liberties as other studios,may more.They changed the entire personality of Tony Stark for example

But they are immune to criticism just because their characters weren't that famous among CBM fans and most people don't even realize how much liberties they have taken

Marvel's films are immune to most criticism because the 10 movies they've released to date don't all suck. This tit for tat just digs you in a bigger hole bringing up how Stark gets a pass compared to Daredevil ,Elektra or Doom.

Fox has 11 "Marvel" films of which more than half of them are forgettable. You could argue that 2 or 3 of Marvels films are Meh but not to the degree of bad that all the other Studios have released.

It's the reason many people want this franchise to revert in the first place. So I don't think there's much of a need to defend Marvel when they do take "liberties". On the flip side It's kind of pointless taking up for a group of actors thrown into a reboot that most didn't want made by Fox in the first place.

Can't wait for GOTG's Blu-ray btw.

 

[starscream22]

I agree. The GoG movie seems to be Abnett's run from the comics come to life. I don't know how anyone can say they deviated way off from the comics.

Gambling on the hope that we don't know any better perhaps...?

That or they just don't know the characters that well themselves. t:

 

[Zarex]

I think you have to start with the Superheroes looking like the superheroes (physically and in terms of costume) and the Superheroes need to have the same powers, personalities, occupations and major defining characteristics. Marvel does a pretty good job of maintaining those key points that most people associate with the characters before changing smaller details. If Iron Man has blue and purple armor, that's a problem. If Jarvis is a computer instead of a person, no big deal to all but hard-core fans.

If Ben has a girlfriend named Jenny who isn't blind, I'm not going to be leading a torch and pitchfork brigade.

But when you cast someone who doesn't look like Reed and has a completely wrong personality and you make Reed, Ben and Johnny all the same ages and you cast someone for Ben who doesn't look vaguely like him and you give Doom powers and you give the main characters containment suits instead of costumes etc. etc. etc. you're going to end up with something that doesn't even resemble the characters most people know, and that's when broad numbers of fans (not just a handful of sticklers) either get pissed off or lose interest.

I think that the limited outcry regarding the MCU changes to the source material comes down to the following - "Has the studio and/or director earned the trust of the audience?" Raimi and Singer both made major changes to their respective source material, but quickly earned the trust of the fan bases by putting out very strong films. Though there certainly were complaints about organic web shooters and leather costumes, the two directors proved they knew how to interpret their characters for the big screen.

Feige has proven himself to the point where even something as controversial as the Mandarin switch is a mere blip on the radar. Compare that to FOX, which has never put out a quality FF movie and Trank, who doesn't appear to have the slightest understanding of what Marvel's First Family is about, and you have the sad situation we find ourselves in.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

They changed the entire personality of Tony Stark for example

No, they didn't. They made him more of a motor-mouthed wisecracker, but that's about it.

The hard-drinking, womanizing, billionaire playboy engineering genius who undergoes a traumatic experience as a hostage and decides to dedicate his life to helping people is straight out of the comics.

They changed one particular aspect of his personality, but he is unquestionably recognizable as being the same Tony Stark of the comics.

 

[starscream22]

I think that the limited outcry regarding the MCU changes to the source material comes down to the following - "Has the studio and/or director earned the trust of the audience?" Raimi and Singer both made major changes to their respective source material, but quickly earned the trust of the fan bases by putting out very strong films. Though there certainly were complaints about organic web shooters and leather costumes, the two directors proved they knew how to interpret their characters for the big screen.

Feige has proven himself to the point where even something as controversial as the Mandarin switch is a mere blip on the radar. Compare that to FOX, which has never put out a quality FF movie and Trank, who doesn't appear to have the slightest understanding of what Marvel's First Family is about, and you have the sad situation we find ourselves in.

One could argue that that twist wasn't his call in the first place. I don't recall ever hearing him speak out about it. I still hate what they did to Mandarin but between RDJ's injury, the films deadline and possible fear by the studio of the comparisons between Mandarin's rings to the Infinity gauntlet I've learned to ignore it for the bigger picture.

 

[Orba]

One could argue that that twist wasn't his call in the first place. I don't recall ever hearing him speak out about it. I still hate what they did to Mandarin but between RDJ's injury, the films deadline and possible fear by the studio of the comparisons between Mandarin's rings to the Infinity gauntlet I've learned to ignore it for the bigger picture.

It never bothered me simply as I knew there had to be some other Mandarin figure had to be out there. The Ten Rings group existed in both the previous IM films so to me at least it was clear that the Ten Rings in IM3 was AIM carrying out identity theft on a known terrorist group to cover-up their Extremis "accidents". I know some say that "All Hail the King" is a retcon by Marvel but to me it would have been a retcon if AHTK didn't exist.

A far bigger change to a character is Fox's version of Sebastian Shaw, he was just a lore name to hang on their own character, he was absolutely nothing like the comic character. Fox even changed his powers.

 

[Kelly]

But maybe that's what Fox are counting on and what MBJ is talking about. They just want you to go see their movie anyway even if it is for the sole purpose of officially slamming it, because at least they'll have gotten your money for the opening weekend or so and made back a profit of sorts.

Then they can spin it in their favour and say that all these people did go and see it as predicted, especially FF fans.

Newsrama should write a new article advocating that method on Fox's behalf:

1. Go see the movie for yourself
2. Savage it
3. Report back to other fans on how bad it was
4. Tell them to repeat steps 1-4
5. Make Fox happy in knowing you gave them your money even if it was for this reason.


6. Kick yourself later (but this falls out of Fox's 5-step plan and is merely one for you to do at home, hence why we don't draw attention to it!).

Well, here is the thing...I don't really try and figure out what Fox is trying to do or not do....I have no clue, I don't sit in on there meetings. I don't really care if they care what I do, or that anyone cares actually. I simply want to go to the movie, I will go for free because I have a manager friend whom I have spoke of before here, I'll buy a drink and some popcorn and see what the movie is all about. I don't really see a need to only look at the BO to make my opinion. I want it to be a strong opinion, clear, intelligent, and with all of the variables before I spend time here after the movie is out giving my opinion. If people don't want to go and see the movie, that is their choice...but I would like to think that they see no need to spend much time here once the movie has come out. But hey, I'm a very much "to each his/her own"....all opinions are more than welcome as far as I'm concerned....the only REAL opinion I care about a nice balance of subjective and objective.....is mine.

 

[starscream22]

It never bothered me simply as I knew there had to be some other Mandarin figure had to be out there. The Ten Rings group existed in both the previous IM films so to me at least it was clear that the Ten Rings in IM3 was AIM carrying out identity theft on a known terrorist group to cover-up their Extremis "accidents". I know some say that "All Hail the King" is a retcon by Marvel but to me it would have been a retcon if AHTK didn't exist.

A far bigger change to a character is Fox's version of Sebastian Shaw, he was just a lore name to hang on their own character, he was absolutely nothing like the comic character. Fox even changed his powers.

AHTK to me was clearly damage control. Marvel knows they dodged a bullet with that twist. Every one gave it the benefit of the doubt off the strength of Avengers success and RDJ but not all came out happy. Thus the 10min cover up/one shoot.

Your right about Sebastian Shaw which to me feels like the norm with FOX whereas Marvel's Mandarin are isolated exceptions. Which is why Doom being stuck at Fox irks my soul.

 

[First Avenger]

One could argue that that twist wasn't his call in the first place. I don't recall ever hearing him speak out about it. I still hate what they did to Mandarin but between RDJ's injury, the films deadline and possible fear by the studio of the comparisons between Mandarin's rings to the Infinity gauntlet I've learned to ignore it for the bigger picture.

The Mandarin twist was infact Shane Black's idea,Feige just accepted it.

 

[Dark Raven]

I wonder how many of the things wrong with this FFINO movie are Trank's/ Kinberg's idea and Fox just accepts it. Or maybe it's the other way round?

 

[Kelly]

I wonder how many of the things wrong with this FFINO movie are Trank's/ Kinberg's idea and Fox just accepts it. Or maybe it's the other way round?

Not sure we will ever find out, but if it does die at the BO, I'm sure there will be blame going around.

 

[Whiskey Tango]

AHTK to me was clearly damage control. Marvel knows they dodged a bullet with that twist.

You don't bother with damage control in response to a handful of nerds shaking their fists. The GA didn't care and the majority of fandom felt likewise.