The Rebooted "Keep Hope Alive" (that the rights can revert back to Marvel) Thread - Part 10

[Willie Lumpkin]

But if I remember correctly, the Corman FF movie would indicate that they wouldn't even have to get it into theaters, yes?

If so, we might have a situation- if you can even fathom it- worse than Fant4stic....

The Corman film was a different agreement with a different studio. The agreement was redone when the rights were transferred to Fox.

There is purportedly a "quality clause" in the new agreement that would prevent another Corman effort (and Disney lawyers, if pushed, could likely claim even Fant4stic violated that quality clause).

 

[Willie Lumpkin]

They can try to low ball that as much as possible but the more they pinch the pennies the more likely they will lose money on the effort.... Again.

The FF rights including sub-characters (like Silver Surfer) don't lend themselves to Fox's model of low-budget, low risk films like Logan and Deadpool.

Can you imagine Fox making an R-Rated, low-budget violence and obscenity filled Silver Surfer film?

I was thinking about it some last night and you could pretty much randomly pick any X-Men character:

Cyclops
Gambit
Rogue
Kitty Pryde
Colossus
Sabretooth
Iceman
Beast
Cable
Angel
Juggernaught
Emma Frost
Wolverine
Mystique
Jubilee
Psylocke
The Blob
Storm
X-23
Nightcrawler
etc. etc. etc.

And make a better film that fits Fox's model and Fox's universe and would be received by fans far better than an FF or FF related film.

Fox has all these great characters whose stories haven't even begun to be told yet. They could make three films a year for a hundred years that focus on specific characters and small groupings of characters and they'd never use them all up and they'd never get old.

What can Fox do with the FF that they can't do with X-Men characters? When they've used the FF, they haven't even told their story, so if they want to reinvent characters and tell their own story anyway, why not use the hundreds of characters under the X-Men umbrella that could lead to crossovers etc.?

And the problems they've had making X-Men films haven't been because they don't have enough characters. It's because they aren't using the characters they have properly. They're cramming too many characters into films and not allowing audiences to get to know any of them (except for Wolverine and Deadpool).

I can understand that if they think they can get something out of Marvel, it makes sense to at least try, but when it becomes obvious Marvel doesn't plan to give them anything, they'd have to be fools to try again with the FF when they have so much non-FF material to work with.

A Beast film or a Cyclops film or a Nightcrawler film or an Iceman film or a Collosus film could not only be great on their own, but letting audiences see more of those characters so they can get to know them better would make the team films work better.

The FF is just a distraction from fleshing out the X-Men world properly. They have far too many characters in the X-Verse to give any of them the screen time they deserve. The last thing they need is a whole new set of characters taking screen-time from those X-Verse characters.

 

[Dark Raven]

The FF rights including sub-characters (like Silver Surfer) don't lend themselves to Fox's model of low-budget, low risk films like Logan and Deadpool.

Can you imagine Fox making an R-Rated, low-budget violence and obscenity filled Silver Surfer film?

I was thinking about it some last night and you could pretty much randomly pick any X-Men character:

Cyclops
Gambit
Rogue
Kitty Pryde
Colossus
Sabretooth
Iceman
Beast
Cable
Angel
Juggernaught
Emma Frost
Wolverine
Mystique
Jubilee
Psylocke
The Blob
Storm
X-23
Nightcrawler
etc. etc. etc.

And make a better film that fits Fox's model and Fox's universe and would be received by fans far better than an FF or FF related film.

Fox has all these great characters whose stories haven't even begun to be told yet. They could make three films a year for a hundred years that focus on specific characters and small groupings of characters and they'd never use them all up and they'd never get old.

What can Fox do with the FF that they can't do with X-Men characters? When they've used the FF, they haven't even told their story, so if they want to reinvent characters and tell their own story anyway, why not use the hundreds of characters under the X-Men umbrella that could lead to crossovers etc.?

And the problems they've had making X-Men films haven't been because they don't have enough characters. It's because they aren't using the characters they have properly. They're cramming too many characters into films and not allowing audiences to get to know any of them (except for Wolverine and Deadpool).

I can understand that if they think they can get something out of Marvel, it makes sense to at least try, but when it becomes obvious Marvel doesn't plan to give them anything, they'd have to be fools to try again with the FF when they have so much non-FF material to work with.

A Beast film or a Cyclops film or a Nightcrawler film or an Iceman film or a Collosus film could not only be great on their own, but letting audiences see more of those characters so they can get to know them better would make the team films work better.

The FF is just a distraction from fleshing out the X-Men world properly. They have far too many characters in the X-Verse to give any of them the screen time they deserve. The last thing they need is a whole new set of characters taking screen-time from those X-Verse characters.

I want my Old Man Surfer movie now!

Surfer can be old and grey, which is how he gets the nickname "Silver Surfer", especially if he's mostly incapacitated and has to spend most of his time on the internet. Although if there's any black still left in his hair he might be more like Salt and Pepper Surfer. Or maybe he'd have the Professor X role, where he's been bald for all the X-Men movies, but when he gets old he suddenly grows hair at the back of his head and starts looking like an old version of Captain Picard.

 

[WeaponXCII]

A Corman can't be done again: the agreement with Fox is that whatever they make has to be given a wide theatrical release (so they can't get around the release terms by sneaking a trashcan job out in some back alley theatre).

That condition was not in place in the original deal with Constantin.

That pretty much makes sure Fox has to invest a significant amount in a marketable film. They can try to low ball that as much as possible but the more they pinch the pennies the more likely they will lose money on the effort.... Again.

Oh, man- completely slipped my mind! At least that situation's not quite as bleak.

 

[Dark Raven]

What if Marvel got the FF back and they put Scott Buck to work on it straight away in order to work his magic? Better than Trank's version or not?

 

[Xeno]

A Corman can't be done again: the agreement with Fox is that whatever they make has to be given a wide theatrical release (so they can't get around the release terms by sneaking a trashcan job out in some back alley theatre).

That condition was not in place in the original deal with Constantin.

That pretty much makes sure Fox has to invest a significant amount in a marketable film. They can try to low ball that as much as possible but the more they pinch the pennies the more likely they will lose money on the effort.... Again.

This brings up a question: Since the FF rights are actually with Constantin Films, could Disney/Marvel cut Fox out and make a deal with them instead? Constantin has been having an internal power struggle between board members who want to stop making films and those who oppose them. The FF was cited as the premier franchise in CS's portfolio. The Fox films have not been financially lucrative for CS, which needs cash. Disney has the financial ability to step in and pay CS to stop pissing around with Fox and revert the rights.

This is probably a non-issue because if such a deal were possible Disney's lawyers would have worked that angle long ago.

 

[Willie Lumpkin]

This brings up a question: Since the FF rights are actually with Constantin Films, could Disney/Marvel cut Fox out and make a deal with them instead? Constantin has been having an internal power struggle between board members who want to stop making films and those who oppose them. The FF was cited as the premier franchise in CS's portfolio. The Fox films have not been financially lucrative for CS, which needs cash. Disney has the financial ability to step in and pay CS to stop pissing around with Fox and revert the rights.

This is probably a non-issue because if such a deal were possible Disney's lawyers would have worked that angle long ago.

While this seems to get a lot of talk on the internet, I believe the premise is completely false. Everything I've read from people who who were actually involved in or have knowledge of the deal indicate the rights were transferred completely to Fox.

Constantin gets a producer credit and they may even get a small financial cut, but Fox has control (and pays for the films and takes the profit or loss).

And (as you indicate) the idea that Constantin has any larger say defies common sense. At most, they are getting a very small financial cut from Fox. If you were Constantin, and you controlled the rights, would you continue to take a tiny cut of Fox's pathetic efforts or take anything Marvel was willing to offer? (I'm absolutely certain Marvel would give them a check worth 10 times what Constantin has collected from Fox - and/or a similar cut of far more lucrative Marvel FF films).

 

[guitarsingerguy]

Idk...but the rumors about the FF juniors with Johnny and Thing babysitting just sounds...awful...just absolutely awful...

 

[Stark Bauer]

Next week will be very interesting as we will seeif Fox reacts to Homecoming's Box Office results

 

[Xeno]

Next week will be very interesting as we will seeif Fox reacts to Homecoming's Box Office results

The only influence Homecoming's success will have on Fox will be to harden its determination to keep the FF's rights in an iron grip. Only Old Man Murdoch crawling out of his evil lair and demanding it would send Fox to the negotiating table to hammer out a deal.

 

[AndrewGilkison]

I don't understand the logic of FOX being desperate to hold onto a Marvel property that they can no longer make any money off of, just to keep Marvel Studios/Disney from having it when not having it doesn't even hurt Marvel Studios/Disney much (if at all). On the other hand, having to make FF films that make no money - just to keep a property that is useless to FOX, only hurts FOX.

 

[TheVileOne]

Because the fact is Marvel/Disney can make money off of it in the future. Studios and stockholders don't look at it like us. They don't think they can't make money off of it again. They think they can again at some point down the line.

 

[guitarsingerguy]

Because the fact is Marvel/Disney can make money off of it in the future. Studios and stockholders don't look at it like us. They don't think they can't make money off of it again. They think they can again at some point down the line.

Yeah, but if they were smart they'd look into a joint venture like Sony did, so they can BOTH make money. I guess they'd rather keep churning out turds that lose money and just keep writing them off. And they may think they can make money later, but if they keep churning out stinkers every seven years, that's absolutely never gonna happen. A large reason that people are as curious about Homecoming as they are, besides the positive reviews, is they want to see an MCU Spidey. That's overcoming alot of Spidey fatigue.

 

[Zarex]

Because the fact is Marvel/Disney can make money off of it in the future. Studios and stockholders don't look at it like us. They don't think they can't make money off of it again. They think they can again at some point down the line.

That may make some sense if the FF had a track record of BO success, like Aliens, Wimpy Kid or Independence Day. But the franchise hasn't earned a dime in over a dozen years, and even that one was a very modest earner. The only reason for FOX to put another FF film into theaters as opposed to literally anything else would be to play keep away with Disney.

And Stockholders are going to treat the arrival of Fant4sti2 the same way they treated FFINO. SELL!

 

[Willie Lumpkin]

I think the leaked rumor about the Franklin/Valeria movie was all about Homecoming and trying to get Marvel to talk about a similar deal.

They can't be seriously considering making that film, and just like the announcement of the reboot - right after Disney had bought Marvel - I think the timing of this new rumor is very telling.

I think Marvel will play hardball and only discuss a deal if Fox makes big concessions (possibly including complete reversion after a set number of joint films), but I think that's a far more reasonable explanation for the rumor than a true desire by Fox to make a film that absolutely nobody wants.

And it may have backfired on Fox, because the public reaction to the rumor certainly didn't strengthen their position.

 

[First Avenger]

Because the fact is Marvel/Disney can make money off of it in the future. Studios and stockholders don't look at it like us. They don't think they can't make money off of it again. They think they can again at some point down the line.

I'm starting to agree with this. I think we are doomed.

 

[Zant]

http://imgur.com/iODkGJ7

Oh dear. A new low for Marvel?

 

[Zarex]

I feel awful for the Bombastic Bag Man fans.

 

[Willie Lumpkin]

I feel awful for the Bombastic Bag Man fans.

I know people around here have said they don't want a Sony-type deal (and obviously Fox has a much weaker bargaining position than Sony had), but what about this hypothetical:

Over the next 10 years, Fox and Marvel co-produce three Fantastic Four films. As with Sony, Marvel would take creative control and Fox would pay the bills and collect (most of) the profit.

During that time, Marvel can use FF characters in other Marvel films as they see fit (with a good-faith effort to use those characters in a way that would increase interest in the FF films, not distract or take value away).

At the end of that 10 year period, the rights go fully and completely back to Marvel.

If you were Fox, would you take that deal? If you were Marvel, would you take that deal?

I think if I were Fox, I'd jump at the option. They could make far more with those three films than they'd make with 10 films done on their own.

From Marvel's point of view, I think it's a little trickier. If they really think there's zero chance Fox will make another film, they're better to wait Fox out, but they have gotten burned doing that in the past. And if Fox is foolish enough to make another FF film, not only would that give them the rights until roughly 2030 (and possibly beyond if they are determined to continue to make crappy films), but it would absolutely and finally suck any remaining value out of the franchise to the point even Marvel couldn't redeem them. (and fans like me will be dying off and replaced with people who were born in a world with no FF).

As a fan, I'd be all for that deal.

 

[Zarex]

That's a good opening bid Rupert, but here's my counter offer: As with Spidey, Marvel Studios will produce the film. But Disney/Marvel and FOX will split both the production costs and any profits realized from the proposed trilogy.

Marvel will wet its beak on Homecoming through merchandise sales, increased interest in the new Disney XD animated program and BO bumps from having the world's most popular superhero appear in Marvel financed MCU films. But the FF doesn't have the juice to draw fans into the theaters as MCU guest stars and they don't move product like Mr. Parker.

So we're going to need an ownership stake in this trilogy to make the deal work. This limits your upside, but it also cuts your risk by a significant degree. And if the films don't reach certain set financial goals we will cut you a check for the difference. Deal?

 

[Willie Lumpkin]

That's a good opening bid Rupert, but here's my counter offer: As with Spidey, Marvel Studios will produce the film. But Disney/Marvel and FOX will split both the production costs and any profits realized from the proposed trilogy.

Marvel will wet its beak on Homecoming through merchandise sales, increased interest in the new Disney XD animated program and BO bumps from having the world's most popular superhero appear in Marvel financed MCU films. But the FF doesn't have the juice to draw fans into the theaters as MCU guest stars and they don't move product like Mr. Parker.

So we're going to need an ownership stake in this trilogy to make the deal work. This limits your upside, but it also cuts your risk by a significant degree. And if the films don't reach certain set financial goals we will cut you a check for the difference. Deal?

I actually think this might be more attractive to Fox than the one I suggested.

Fox is very risk averse, so while this would reduce their reward, it would also reduce their risk, and I think they might go for that.

It also ensures that Marvel would be fully committed to the profitability of the FF films.

 

[Zarex]

I actually think this might be more attractive to Fox than the one I suggested.

Fox is very risk averse, so while this would reduce their reward, it would also reduce their risk, and I think they might go for that.

It also ensures that Marvel would be fully committed to the profitability of the FF films.

Done! I'll have my attorney write up the contracts!

One of the reasons I find the whole FF situation so frustrating is that it seems like such an easy fix. I understand egos, jealousy, stockholders, etc. all play a role in preventing a deal getting made, but this one in particular should have been done years ago. Hopefully folks at the two studios will take note of our clever dealing and get a damn deal done.

 

[Willie Lumpkin]

Done! I'll have my attorney write up the contracts!

One of the reasons I find the whole FF situation so frustrating is that it seems like such an easy fix. I understand egos, jealousy, stockholders, etc. all play a role in preventing a deal getting made, but this one in particular should have been done years ago. Hopefully folks at the two studios will take note of our clever dealing and get a damn deal done.

Exactly! The situation now isn't making money for anyone and Fox will never be capable of making a profitable FF film, so as long as they can get anything of value from Marvel, they should find some way to work things out so they don't walk away with nothing (which is the most likely scenario if they don't act soon).

I'm sure Marvel would be interested in doing a deal like this or giving Fox a few characters they could use with X-Men, or some X-Men merchandising or something that would be worth less than the FF rights are to Marvel, but more than the FF rights are worth in Fox's hands.

As long as the deal falls in that range, both studios come out ahead.

 

[Leo Zelinsky]

Can you imagine Fox making an R-Rated, low-budget violence and obscenity filled Silver Surfer film?

I was thinking about it some last night and you could pretty much randomly pick any X-Men character:

Cyclops
Gambit
Rogue
Kitty Pryde
Colossus
Sabretooth
Iceman
Beast
Cable
Angel
Juggernaught
Emma Frost
Wolverine
Mystique
Jubilee
Psylocke
The Blob
Storm
X-23
Nightcrawler
etc. etc. etc.

I'd rather see a PG-13 Magik movie

 

[Willie Lumpkin]

I'd rather see a PG-13 Magik movie

Exactly. And I was just playing around and found this list:

http://www.ranker.com/crowdranked-list/x-men-characters-who-deserve-their-own-movie

Here's a list of 45 characters (and it's not even close to complete) who could carry their own films and those films would be embraced by fans and fans would look forward to them and fans would be lined up on opening day and those characters could be mixed and matched with other characters in one huge, fully fleshed-out X-Verse...

... or they can do a Franklin/Valeria film, piss everybody off and lose money.