The Rebooted "Keep Hope Alive" (that the rights can revert back to Marvel) Thread - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 24

[Spider-Fan]

Well, I certainly want Doom to appear in the FF movie prior to menacing the Avengers and it doesn’t really matter that Loki has been a villain to the Avengers more than Doom in the comics. I don’t see how that should preclude him from being a legit bad guy for the Avengers to face off against in the MCU, especially it has precedent in the comics. Doom has the formidable combination of intellect and power(should he get the power cosmic) so he’d be already a lot more dangerous than someone like Loki who’s mostly just a shapeshifter.

Again, I think Doom would offer a nice change of pace from the extra-terrestrial baddies the Avengers have faced so far.

If Thor’s abandoned estranged half-brother can be a threat to Earth’s Mightest Heroes than surely Reed Richards’s embittered, science rival can surely be up to the task of being a thorn on the Avengers side.

I am not saying Doom CAN'T be an Avengers level threat. What I am saying is the Avengers have tons of villains to based future movies around themselves, and ultimately snatching Doom from the ranks of the FF would devalue that property. Doom is someone who can walks many roads, yes. But my worry is (and I don't think it is unfounded) If you send him over to the Avengers, my worry would be he'd stay there and not go back to facing the FF, who need him more. I'd rather if he steals some type of Cosmic power or something, that the Avengers cameo in the FF movie as opposed to the reverse. It's not a matter of who Doom can/cannot take on. Doom can be a threat to everyone very easily, but why use him in a property that doesn't need him? I am fine with him being a villain in a massive crossover like Secret Wars, but the Avengers are a 2bil property without him and they have no shortage of villains. Do we want to see the FF only tangle with the likes of Mole Man and such, and thus be limited because they decided to use Doom mainly as an Avengers threat? Doom should be the FF's Loki, and the Avengers are not the only team that take on the biggest of threats. The FF do this, too.

I don't want to see a world where Stark replaces Reed in Doom's history. It would anger me.

 

[Crimz]

Well, I certainly want Doom to appear in the FF movie prior to menacing the Avengers and it doesn’t really matter that Loki has been a villain to the Avengers more than Doom in the comics. I don’t see how that should preclude him from being a legit bad guy for the Avengers to face off against in the MCU, especially it has precedent in the comics. Doom has the formidable combination of intellect and power(should he get the power cosmic) so he’d be already a lot more dangerous than someone like Loki who’s mostly just a shapeshifter.

Again, I think Doom would offer a nice change of pace from the extra-terrestrial baddies the Avengers have faced so far.

If Thor’s abandoned estranged half-brother can be a threat to Earth’s Mightest Heroes than surely Reed Richards’s embittered, science rival can surely be up to the task of being a thorn on the Avengers side.

My issue with this is that frames the Fantastic Four as a "lesser" team compared to the Avengers. It makes them the warm up for the Doom and makes the Avengers the main target. The FF should be treated equally to the Avengers, not as the B team.

 

[Spider-Fan]

My issue with this is that frames the Fantastic Four as a "lesser" team compared to the Avengers. It makes them the warm up for the Doom and makes the Avengers the main target. The FF should be treated equally to the Avengers, not as the B team.

Completely agreed

There is a reason in the comics, Galactus knows the name Reed Richards and looks at him as the voice of Earth. Not the Avengers. I love the Avengers. Captain America is my favorite hero. But just because the FF movies have sucked doesn't mean on a cosmic scale they're a lesser team. Snatching Doom and sending him to the Avengers gallery of villains continues this view that the FF suck and it is all about the Avengers.

 

[Detective Conan]

I am not saying Doom CAN'T be an Avengers level threat. What I am saying is the Avengers have tons of villains to based future movies around themselves, and ultimately snatching Doom from the ranks of the FF would devalue that property. Doom is someone who can walks many roads, yes. But my worry is (and I don't think it is unfounded) If you send him over to the Avengers, my worry would be he'd stay there and not go back to facing the FF, who need him more. I'd rather if he steals some type of Cosmic power or something, that the Avengers cameo in the FF movie as opposed to the reverse. It's not a matter of who Doom can/cannot take on. Doom can be a threat to everyone very easily, but why use him in a property that doesn't need him? I am fine with him being a villain in a massive crossover like Secret Wars, but the Avengers are a 2bil property without him and they have no shortage of villains. Do we want to see the FF only tangle with the likes of Mole Man and such, and thus be limited because they decided to use Doom mainly as an Avengers threat? Doom should be the FF's Loki, and the Avengers are not the only team that take on the biggest of threats. The FF do this, too.

First of all, I really don't see how it would devalue the FF as property any more than Thor was devlaued when Loki transitioned from being the vilian his solo to the Loki being the bad guy in the first Avengers , Frankly I argue Doom is a much richer and interesting character than Loki ever was, and in fact far more of a threat than he was which is part of the reason I think he'd work fine.

And of course the Avengers have other villains they can face off against other than Doom but I merely contend that Doom would be the ideal candidate to succeed Thanos as a nemesis in the next Avengers film precisely because the character offers something very different from the mad titan and because he's the greatest Marvel baddie that I think he'd quite interesting as a foe for the Avengers to face. Why not have Marvel's biggest villain be the villian for the next installment for Marvel's biggest brand. I don't see anything inherently wrong with Doom after he's been established in the MCU as the prominent foe for the Fantastic Four be an antagonist for the Avengers to face off against.

I don't want to see a world where Stark replaces Reed in Doom's history. It would anger me.

Well I don't know where you got such an impression I really advocate the character make the transition from being a FF villian to being an Avengers villain in the same vein Loki transitioned from being a Thor villian to being a Avengers villian. I still want Doom to have that personal history with Reed but I just think after he makes his debut the MCU(ideally in a Fantastic Four film)then he should move over and become a nemesis for the Avengers to face off. The Avengers can even team up with the FF to fight Doom if need be. You make it seem like I want Doom to debut in an Avengers film without any connection with the FF in the slightest when that's not really where I was getting at. I want Doom to be established as a FF villian first much like Loki was established as a Thor villain before he fought the Avengers.

 

[Detective Conan]

My issue with this is that frames the Fantastic Four as a "lesser" team compared to the Avengers. It makes them the warm up for the Doom and makes the Avengers the main target. The FF should be treated equally to the Avengers, not as the B team.

I would disagree in part because I think the FF(especially Reed Richards) are always going to more personal to Doom no matter who else he fights. Plus I would want the FF to play a role in the Avengers movie and possibly team up with the Avengers to battle Doom. Going to back to my Thor-Loki example I don't see how Thor was made to be a lesser character when the Avengers took his villain and made him into the main baddie of the first film. Granted, I'm well aware that Loki was already the very first Avengers villain face off against in the comics but to me it doesn't matter since I'd argue Doom can work just as well as an Avengers villain as he does as a FF villain.

 

[Spider-Fan]

First of all, I really don't see how it would devalue the FF as property any more than Thor was devlaued when Loki transitioned from being the vilian his solo to the Loki being the bad guy in the first Avengers , Frankly I argue Doom is a much richer and interesting character than Loki ever was, and in fact far more of a threat than he was which is part of the reason I think he'd work fine.

And of course the Avengers have other villains they can face off against other than Doom but I merely contend that Doom would be the ideal candidate to succeed Thanos as a nemesis in the next Avengers film precisely because the character offers something very different from the mad titan and because he's the greatest Marvel baddie that I think he'd quite interesting as a foe for the Avengers to face. Why not have Marvel's biggest villain be the villian for the next installment for Marvel's biggest brand. I don't see anything inherently wrong with Doom after he's been established in the MCU as the prominent foe for the Fantastic Four be an antagonist for the Avengers to face off against.

Well I don't know where you got such an impression I really advocate the character make the transition from being a FF villian to being an Avengers villain in the same vein Loki transitioned from being a Thor villian to being a Avengers villian. I still want Doom to have that personal history with Reed but I just think after he makes his debut the MCU(ideally in a Fantastic Four film)then he should move over and become a nemesis for the Avengers to face off. The Avengers can even team up with the FF to fight Doom if need be. You make it seem like I want Doom to debut in an Avengers film without any connection with the FF in the slightest when that's not really where I was getting at. I want Doom to be established as a FF villian first much like Loki was established as a Thor villain before he fought the Avengers.

Again, you don't see how this sounds? Thor is a bad example. Thor is an Avenger, the FF are not. They're less connected to them and are a team equal to the Avengers in their own right. It's natural for guys the Avengers fight solo to come up against them as a team, see Crossbones in Civil War or Hydra in AoU. That's their world. So it is not at all the same thing. This would be more akin to putting Magneto in an Avengers film and making him an Avengers villain. So you're taking Doom, the FF's prime villain, and making him an Avengers villain. You're again saying Avengers > FF and further, Doom > FF. Even if you don't mean it that way, it's still the idea he is "upgrading." How is that not devaluing the property? You're setting the FF up as the minor leagues, and that is a problem. Also, why use an Avengers movie for this, when guys like Kang and such still have not been used? I am not saying Doom cannot be in different stuff, but I again come back to my original point that the Avengers don't need him. I also agree with something someone said earlier: I would like to see future massive crossover films (like a Secret Wars) not be Avengers: Secret Wars, but just be Marvel's Secret Wars. Doom can be a massive crossover villain eventually. I think he is more than capable, but I'd rather it not be with the Avengers branding. Again, outside of a Secret Wars or something, I'd rather see the Avengers encounter Doom in an FF movie. Show that the FF are equals.

 

[GoblinScrier]

Well obviously I want Doom and Fantastic 4 to have their epic feuds, plus Richards and Doom have the greatest battle of wits in Marvels history...that needs to be on the big screen...I never meant for my comment of Doom appearing in Avengers Endgame mid or post credit to define him as a villain...rather you just show him or hint at him to set him for the larger MCU...he doesn't have to show up in an Avengers meeting at all for years, just merely suggestion Doom is there and the other movies will create that story

 

[Iceman]

Doom, Galactus, and Annihilus shouldn't be Avengers villains. They are FF villains. After Endgame I don't want the big crossover films to be called Avengers, call them Marvel something. Like Marvel's Secret Wars, Marvel's Annihilation War, things like that.

I agree that event films shouldn't just automatically be called Avengers films. I definitely thought that Civil War should have been called that rather than also being called Cap 3 (I would have preferred to get a separate more personal Cap 3). I wouldn't mind MCU: Secret Wars, MCU: Annihilation. I would love to see GA guys using MCU as a term lol.

 

[Iceman]

But Loki was A - the villain of a Thor movie prior, and B - Loki has been a nemesis to the Avengers in their book more than Doom. Has Doom faced the Avengers? Many times, but less than someone like Loki, and for Doom way fewer times than the FF. So Loki made more sense.

The FF need Doom more than the Avengers.

Doom should start in the F4 film, and then come back as a more serious threat that requires help from the Avengers too for a MCU event film.

 

[Darkprime]

Since we're light on news again. Found some interesting articles.

The ‘Deadpool 2’ re-cut will test how Fox’s edgier assets could fit into Disney


https://nypost.com/2018/12/10/disney-plans-to-split-up-foxs-local-sports-networks-to-sell/

 

[Joe Rockhead]

We’ll have to agree to disagree. For me, I think Doom would be a fine adversary for the Avengers to face off against. As I said, should Doom gain a major boost in power(i.e, gaining the power cosmic or attaining god-like powers) then he’s in my view every bit the threat to them as someone like Ultron & Thanos are. Plus, Loki is primarily a Thor villian but they still made him an antagonist for the Avengers film and I didn’t feel it was a detriment to Thor really. Hasn’t Doom been a villain for the Avengers comics before?

The difference is... Loki WAS the villain that set in motion the events that created the Avengers way back in Avengers 1 in the 60's. His place in the first Avengers movie was perfectly in line with the comics.
While the situation may have been different, his trajectory with Thor in Phase 1 was spot-on.

Doom would make a good adversary for the Avengers, so would Galactus. But if you take away the best villains from the Fantastic Four, you'll be left with the Red Ghost and his Super Apes. Who wants to see that movie?

 

[Darkprime]

Wasn't there a rumour a while back that Disney wanted to change Doom's origin slightly? They didn't want him to be a dictator or something?

 

[Willie Lumpkin]

I feel like Doom should always be linked to the FF and Reed Richards, but he'll also fight other characters (as he did in the comics).

I don't mind having Galactus a little less directly related to the FF, because he's more expansive, and it might be cool to have a huge team effort go up against him. Annihilus, because of the Negative Zone, should be introduced in FF, but he can branch off from there.

And Kang can be a pure Avengers villain as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Willie Lumpkin]

Wasn't there a rumour a while back that Disney wanted to change Doom's origin slightly? They didn't want him to be a dictator or something?

I think the rumor was that for some strange reason (Putin? Terrorism? I'm not even sure) they felt like he would be too controversial.

But the reasoning was so nonsensical that I think it was probably BS.

 

[Darkprime]

I wouldn't mind if Stark played a part in Doom's origin in the MCU tbh it would kind of make sense after Age of Ultron.

 

[KBX]

Since we're light on news again. Found some interesting articles.

The ‘Deadpool 2’ re-cut will test how Fox’s edgier assets could fit into Disney


https://nypost.com/2018/12/10/disney-plans-to-split-up-foxs-local-sports-networks-to-sell/

Once the deal is complete, I’m all for Fox releasing Marvel characters the MCU don’t plan on using. Blade, Moon Knight, Punisher, Daredevil could have a lot of potential.

 

[Spider-Fan]

I wouldn't mind if Stark played a part in Doom's origin in the MCU tbh it would kind of make sense after Age of Ultron.

If it were more than a cameo, I would not be for it at all. I don't think Tony should have any significant role in Stark's backstory.

 

[Darkprime]

If it were more than a cameo, I would not be for it at all. I don't think Tony should have any significant role in Stark's backstory.

I guess it depends on what Doom's origin is. If hes from Sokovia then yea Stark probably is part of his origin.

 

[Spider-Fan]

I guess it depends on what Doom's origin is. If hes from Sokovia then yea Stark probably is part of his origin.

But that I would not amount to more than a cameo or mention and that would be fine. But, if it is something like Stark and Reed were both trying to convince Doom not to go through with the experiment that scars his face, uh uh. Too much.

 

[Marvel united]

I agree with Spider-Fan. I don't want Doom to be retooled into an Avengers villain nor have his dynamic with Reed replaced for a history with Tony Stark.

 

[Darkprime]

haha I like their optimism I almost feel bad....Almost.

X-Men: 'Dark Phoenix' Is Beginning of a New Chapter for the Franchise Says Director

 

[Marvel united]

haha I like their optimism I almost feel bad....Almost.

X-Men: 'Dark Phoenix' Is Beginning of a New Chapter for the Franchise Says Director

Good luck with that Simon.

 

[PsylockeBlackWidow]

Latin America please hurry up and approve this deal between Disney and Fox so Kinberg dream of a new chapter for the X-Men does not come true.

 

[Darkprime]

X-Men: 'Dark Phoenix' Director Explains Why the Film Was Delayed

That's a great sales pitch Kinberg reads just like a corporate marketing piece.

“Movies get pushed all the time,” Kinberg says. “I remember JJ [Abrams] pushed Star Trek a year, then he pushed Star Wars a year, and those movies turned out great, and our movie’s turned out great as well. We really wanted to wait until the visual effects...the biggest challenge of this movie in terms of time is visual effects. There’s a lot of visual effects in this movie. They’re really intricate, more intricate than we’ve ever had in these films, partly because it goes into outer space and that’s hard to render. And the movie will be done in actually just a couple of months and you look at the calendar and you start to see competitively where the best place for it to be released would be, the best time, and the studio felt like it warranted a big summer blockbuster release because it became, despite its intimacy, a very big-scale film. So we started looking at summer and that was the perfect date for it in the summer.”

"summer Is the perfect date" bull****. you guys booked valentines day months before then it suddenly gets delayed something is going on behind the scenes probably Disney related. Disney doesn't want Dark Phoenix taking away any potential box office from its films so they asked Fox to kindly move it into the summer where it won't interfere with Avengers 4,Captain Marvel or Lion King etc.

 

[Detective Conan]

Again, you don't see how this sounds? Thor is a bad example. Thor is an Avenger, the FF are not. They're less connected to them and are a team equal to the Avengers in their own right. It's natural for guys the Avengers fight solo to come up against them as a team, see Crossbones in Civil War or Hydra in AoU. That's their world. So it is not at all the same thing. This would be more akin to putting Magneto in an Avengers film and making him an Avengers villain. So you're taking Doom, the FF's prime villain, and making him an Avengers villain. You're again saying Avengers > FF and further, Doom > FF. Even if you don't mean it that way, it's still the idea he is "upgrading." How is that not devaluing the property? You're setting the FF up as the minor leagues, and that is a problem. Also, why use an Avengers movie for this, when guys like Kang and such still have not been used? I am not saying Doom cannot be in different stuff, but I again come back to my original point that the Avengers don't need him. I also agree with something someone said earlier: I would like to see future massive crossover films (like a Secret Wars) not be Avengers: Secret Wars, but just be Marvel's Secret Wars. Doom can be a massive crossover villain eventually. I think he is more than capable, but I'd rather it not be with the Avengers branding. Again, outside of a Secret Wars or something, I'd rather see the Avengers encounter Doom in an FF movie. Show that the FF are equals.

I guess I just see it differently than you do. From my perspective, I just think using Kang and other aliens after Thanos would feel rather redundant and in order to change things up I suggest Doom as a bad guy because unlike Magneto or Green Goblin I generally see him as bad guy for the rest of universe to fight. I think Doom brings something new to the table, imo.

And about your preference for Doom to face against Avengers in a film version of ‘Secret Wars’. I don’t really see how it makes much of a difference, imo. Avengers Infinity War, I'd argue wasn't really an Avengers film is so much the film version of the Marvel crossover event ‘Infinity Guantlet’ using the Avengers branding so to me doing another Avengers film that adapts Secret Wars is pretty much the same thing. Granted Marvel could always adapt those large scale superhero crossovers and title them something else but I’d also argue you can indeed show the FF as equals to the Avengers in a Avengers film. It all depends on the execution. If, for say, you have the FF work alongside or collaborate with the Avengers in order to stop Doom or in fact make it a point to show the Avengers can’t defeat Doom without the FF’s help then I don’t really see it as devaluing the team should they put Doom as a foe for the Avengers to face against. But that’s just me.

But anyway I digress. I don't want derail the topic. I’m sure you’ll reply but I’m about finished. I’ll move on.