The Rebooted "Keep Hope Alive" (that the rights can revert back to Marvel) Thread - Part 9

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Makes the great Reed Richards sound incompetent to me that he couldn't find a way to bring them back home over the course of 50 years if he is the reason they left in the first place.

If they chose to leave earth for good or got kidnapped by some cosmic entity or trapped in some dimension then they are no longer all that fantastic to me.

Reed would basically be the professor from Gilligan's Island.

By that reasoning, isn't Reed 'incompetent' for the cosmic accident in the first place? Reed isn't perfect. He makes mistakes. And when he makes those mistakes, it's typically from pushing too hard to go beyond anything anybody else has ever done.

And by the way, 50 years could be 5 minutes FF time if they're traveling close to the speed of light. ;)
 
By that reasoning, isn't Reed 'incompetent' for the cosmic accident in the first place? Reed isn't perfect. He makes mistakes. And when he makes those mistakes, it's typically from pushing too hard to go beyond anything anybody else has ever done.

And by the way, 50 years could be 5 minutes FF time if they're traveling close to the speed of light. ;)

Well....I think that depends on how this "accident" is portrayed in the MCU. Could it been entirely on Reed? Could it been sabotaged? Who knows

Im not asking for a perfect Reed. If Reed and the team are an established group of superheroes in the MCU 60's and were in the public eye of NYC and the world which they should have been there would have been many well known documented adventures of saving the city and the world from external threats be it cosmic or man made. Thats what make them known as "The Fantastic Four" the Worlds First Group of super heroes. People thought Thor were nothing but stories till he arrived and made his presence known.

They don't operate in secrecy. So what "fantastic" things were they doing to make themselves of legend to the people of earth? There doesn't seem to be any existence of this at all in the MCU. Its seems forced to go back and say they were there. You guys are proposing a whole film devoted to them in the 60's.

And if Reed Susan Ben and Johnny have been missing for 50 years our time then you are taking away a big chunk of their history on earth. Their impact on the MCU. What made these characters "fantastic". You have effectively made them Captain America on ice for 70 years. They return to present day and they are behind the times. Too much exposition. Maybe Im missing something here? I just don't see how this works.
 
It would also be pretty sad if Scott Lang found his way back and the great Reed couldnt. Or did he choose to leave earth? Either way it takes from Reeds character to me.
 
By that reasoning, isn't Reed 'incompetent' for the cosmic accident in the first place? Reed isn't perfect. He makes mistakes. And when he makes those mistakes, it's typically from pushing too hard to go beyond anything anybody else has ever done.

And by the way, 50 years could be 5 minutes FF time if they're traveling close to the speed of light. ;)

Definitely. It might be that Reed brings his team home immediately, and there is never a prolonged period where they are trying to get home. Not even 7 years like Star Trek: Voyager, but more like an instant.

In fact, this could potentially occur during the cosmic storm. They could start out as adventurers in the 60s, but when they gain their powers, they not only are caught in a storm of cosmic rays but also go through a time portal that brings them to the 21st century.

Now maybe afterwards, it's not that they can't get home, especially if they have access to a time machine, but that they choose not to go home because going home would create some kind of temporal paradox which would undo too much of certain aspects of world history. Or they remain in the present to fight an enemy, knowing they have more access to modern technology than back in the 60s.

That seems forced because why mention him now & never before in any other movie ? Obviously we know why but in universe it makes no sense to suddenly mention someone that might have been as smart as Stark

MODERN DAY IT IS

You guys can't just spin this 60s thing it does not work why would the MCU suddenly up until now act like people Reed Richards never existed in universe & thus that creates a problem there is no good in universe reasoning for this

It is just much easier having Reed Richards be a young & upcoming scientists in modern day maybe mid / late(ish) 20s but might get away with max mid 30s as a scientist finally coming into his own cracking alien tech & can also solve problems that Tony can't allowing him to earn Tonys respect quickly etc

They are gonna have to change a thing or two here regardless of what era they put them in but having Reed be an up & coming scientist thats smarter than Stark & Banner makes much more sense

As I mentioned in an earlier post, it could be that since the inception of the MCU, and in all the films we've watched, people haven't known of Reed Richards and his team as a team of superheroes, because they weren't superheroes yet. But if there is some kind of temporal paradox caused by someone like Doom or Kang, then history could be altered where, from this point forward, people do acknowledge their presence.

Well....I think that depends on how this "accident" is portrayed in the MCU. Could it been entirely on Reed? Could it been sabotaged? Who knows

Im not asking for a perfect Reed. If Reed and the team are an established group of superheroes in the MCU 60's and were in the public eye of NYC and the world which they should have been there would have been many well known documented adventures of saving the city and the world from external threats be it cosmic or man made. Thats what make them known as "The Fantastic Four" the Worlds First Group of super heroes. People thought Thor were nothing but stories till he arrived and made his presence known.

They don't operate in secrecy. So what "fantastic" things were they doing to make themselves of legend to the people of earth? There doesn't seem to be any existence of this at all in the MCU. Its seems forced to go back and say they were there. You guys are proposing a whole film devoted to them in the 60's.

And if Reed Susan Ben and Johnny have been missing for 50 years our time then you are taking away a big chunk of their history on earth. Their impact on the MCU. What made these characters "fantastic". You have effectively made them Captain America on ice for 70 years. They return to present day and they are behind the times. Too much exposition. Maybe Im missing something here? I just don't see how this works.

If you watch shows like Timeless (or really any other time travel show), prior to the time that the crew go on a mission, everyone knows history in a particular form, which we could represent by the letter A. But when they return and history has been inadvertently altered, everyone instead knows history in a different form, which could be represented by the letter B.

So, for example, in one of the Timeless episodes, the time team went back and accidentally met Ian Fleming, the writer of the Bond novels. After their adventure with him, when they returned, others talked about an additional Sean Connery James Bond film which the time team never knew about. But the others spoke of this film as if it were common knowledge and that it had always existed. History now didn't know any differently.

Or in one of the final episodes of Quantum Leap, when Sam Beckett leaped first into the body of Lee Harvey Oswald, and then into the body of an agent protecting the Kennedy Presidential detail, they made it out that in the original version of events both John F Kennedy and Jackie Kennedy were killed. But now, because of Sam Beckett's intervention, Jackie Kennedy has survived, and that's the version of events history now remembers as having always occurred that way.
 
Im not asking for a perfect Reed. If Reed and the team are an established group of superheroes in the MCU 60's and were in the public eye of NYC and the world which they should have been there would have been many well known documented adventures of saving the city and the world from external threats be it cosmic or man made. Thats what make them known as "The Fantastic Four" the Worlds First Group of super heroes. People thought Thor were nothing but stories till he arrived and made his presence known.

They don't operate in secrecy. So what "fantastic" things were they doing to make themselves of legend to the people of earth? There doesn't seem to be any existence of this at all in the MCU. Its seems forced to go back and say they were there. You guys are proposing a whole film devoted to them in the 60's.

We're 15 films and a bunch of TV shows into the MCU, but there's decades of missing history between the post war era (covered in Agent Carter) up to the time Tony escaped from the cave. We've seen snippets like Hank and Janet stopping the missile in Ant-Man and Howard and Maria being murdered. But as Willie has stated on numerous occasions, we have no idea what else happened. Was the Vietnam War fought in the MCU? Was the Berlin Wall built and torn down? Did Milli Vanilli dance their way into our hearts and then break them? I DEMAND ANSWERS!

So while it is odd that no one in the MCU has mentioned a Monster Island inhabitant burrowing through Times Square (Escaped circus elephants - NSA) or Galactus hovering over the Baxter Building (Weather balloon - NSA) it certainly could have happened. If Feige and company pull of the FF film we deserve I will be more than willing to put my blinders on.
 
Well....I think that depends on how this "accident" is portrayed in the MCU. Could it been entirely on Reed? Could it been sabotaged? Who knows

Im not asking for a perfect Reed. If Reed and the team are an established group of superheroes in the MCU 60's and were in the public eye of NYC and the world which they should have been there would have been many well known documented adventures of saving the city and the world from external threats be it cosmic or man made. Thats what make them known as "The Fantastic Four" the Worlds First Group of super heroes. People thought Thor were nothing but stories till he arrived and made his presence known.

They don't operate in secrecy. So what "fantastic" things were they doing to make themselves of legend to the people of earth? There doesn't seem to be any existence of this at all in the MCU. Its seems forced to go back and say they were there. You guys are proposing a whole film devoted to them in the 60's.

And if Reed Susan Ben and Johnny have been missing for 50 years our time then you are taking away a big chunk of their history on earth. Their impact on the MCU. What made these characters "fantastic". You have effectively made them Captain America on ice for 70 years. They return to present day and they are behind the times. Too much exposition. Maybe Im missing something here? I just don't see how this works.

Well I keep trying to avoid being an advocate of the retro story, but I also don't understand what in the films prevents them from having existed in the past, so I'm willing to discuss that.

Just because they weren't mentioned doesn't mean they didn't exist and weren't major players. (absence of evidence is not evidence of absence)

Just as a mental exercise, think about real, important historical events and figures and think about how often they were referenced in the films.

Was there any specific mention of Neil Armstrong and the moon landing? Was there any specific mention of the the Kennedy assassination? Was there any specific mention of the civil rights movement and the assassination of MLK Jr.? Thomas Jefferson and the Declaration of Independence? The Civil War? Napoleon? Genghis Khan? Julius Caesar and the Roman Empire? Leonardo Da Vinci and the Renaissance? The burning of the library in Alexandria? Etc. Etc. Etc.

There could have been an epic battle between the Fantastic Four and Dr. Doom that nearly resulted in the enslavement of society under Doom's control, but why would that come up in conversation during any of the Marvel films? To the characters in the films, that was just something that happened that everybody knows about like the examples I provided above.

I completely understand the "I don't like the idea." argument. I'm not sold myself. But I don't understand the "It couldn't have happened in the MCU" argument because I just don't see what specific details in the MCU preclude it.

And as I mentioned earlier, I think Marvel may be trying to tell us things like this have been going on with things such as Ant-Man, Coulson's trading cards and a history of characters that span from WWII to present times.
 
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On the other side of the coin, Aunt May mentioned Superman in the first Raimi Spider-Man film, so that is evidence that he is in the Raimi Spider-Man cinematic universe. :o
 
Zola's algorithm mentioned Steven Strange and others, but never mentioned Reed Richards therefore he cannot exist in the future, only the past.
 
I'm sure they could find a way to retcon around that. It probably wouldn't be the first time the audience had to accept something in this universe that obviously wasn't there prior.
 
Zola's algorithm targeted millions of people. Sitwell mentioned a couple.
 
Zola's algorithm targeted millions of people. Sitwell mentioned a couple.

Sitwell should've mentioned everyone that Zola's algorithm has ever accounted for. The rest of the Winter Soldier movie should've been spent reciting that. :o
 
With all the talk of the Cosmic side to the Marvel Universe being the focus of the next phase, Fantastic Four would be such a great get to come back to Marvel Studios.

Having Reed Richards exploring inter-dimensional travel puts him in position to work with Dr Strange and Thor, while the space travel can connect them to the Guardians, Thanos, etc.

REALLY hope they get this guy back as well:


spacesurfer.jpg
 
With all the talk of the Cosmic side to the Marvel Universe being the focus of the next phase, Fantastic Four would be such a great get to come back to Marvel Studios.

Having Reed Richards exploring inter-dimensional travel puts him in position to work with Dr Strange and Thor, while the space travel can connect them to the Guardians, Thanos, etc.

REALLY hope they get this guy back as well:


spacesurfer.jpg

Agreed. Then I'd like to see this:

92ea959ee8569a92637d68ce3dfb270d.jpg
 
Can't do that in the 60s

You don't seem to have been reading people's posts carefully.

People aren't saying that the FF need to be confined to the 60s. They can start off there and have their origin in that decade, but they can be brought into modern times. They can face Galactus and the Silver Surfer for the first time in 21st century.

And Silver Surfer is capable of time travel anyway, so even if he were in the 60s, he could easily come to modern times. Besides, Galactus and the Silver Surfer aren't even from earth, so the 1960s doesn't even apply to them. They can come to earth in whichever decade they please.
 
The FF have a lot of virtually immortal foes, including Galactus and his heralds, Kang, Annihilus and Victor (via magic and science). Any baddies they have in the 60s will be ready to great them in the modern day MCU.
 
The thought of a live action Dr. Doom with ironman like tech and Dr. Strange like magic would be so dope.
 
I would like to see someone ask Feige WHY Fox still has the rights. Are they asking for $100 million for rights they'll never use, or have they set a reasonable price that Marvel refuses to pay?

To go back to the subject of rights, my personal theory as to why Marvel haven't made an outright buy is due to Perlmutter. Also on Fox's end, we can safely assume that they refuse to give them up for free. And why would they? They likely paid through the nose for them, only to have the end-result be a bunch of stinkers.

However, this also ties into another question that's been on my mind: Are Fox allowed, or is it breaking the terms of the original purchase, to sell the rights to another company, like say Warner Brothers or Universal?

Now, assuming that they are allowed to do that (and they more likely are), What I'm saying boils down to this: If Marvel really do want the F4, they'd better hurry up and come to some kind of a deal with Fox before the latter turn to another company who IS willing to pay them money for the rights.
 
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The thought of a live action Dr. Doom with ironman like tech and Dr. Strange like magic would be so dope.

He might have tech more advanced than Iron Man. He's probably plundered things from various time periods he's visited. He probably could even get some stuff from Kang.

Kang might be from the 30th century, but Doom could probably still outsmart him.

Would love it if they did a film version of Iron Man #150 where Doom and Stark go back to the time of Camelot and encounter Morgan Le Fay:

1675306bc7999817391fbde55d6d5097.jpg


However, they should take the title "Doom Quest" from Iron Man #149, (which was the lead up to #150) rather than #150's actual title, "Knightmare".

iron-man-149.jpg


"Iron Man: Doom Quest" sounds much catchier and more descriptive of what the movie would be about than "Iron Man: Knightmare".

Of course, they would have to cast a really great actor for Doom to be able to stand opposite RDJ. You can't have someone like Julian McMahon or Toby Kebbell facing off against RDJ. Doom has to be much more intimidating and needs much more gravitas than Downey.
 
Fantastic Four isn't a group out of time like Captain America. That's Cap's gimmick.
 
I just don't understand this thinking (but a lot of people seem to think this way, so maybe I'm missing something). What event, what conversation, what line of dialogue in any of the Marvel movies indicated the Fantastic Four didn't exist and weren't well known in the 60's?

I think people are just presuming they didn't exist because we don't know them from our reality, but the MCU reality is different from ours. We need to just use the information provided to us from the movies and not make assumptions beyond the information that's there. Just because they didn't come up in conversation doesn't mean they didn't exist. To use my example from earlier, Jim Morrison, Pol Pot and Jackie Gleason weren't mentioned in any of the films, but just because they weren't mentioned doesn't mean they didn't exist.

Why do they only have to exist in the 1960s? Why close off Doom from interacting with all the modern heroes?
 
Makes the great Reed Richards sound incompetent to me that he couldn't find a way to bring them back home over the course of 50 years if he is the reason they left in the first place.

If they chose to leave earth for good or got kidnapped by some cosmic entity or trapped in some dimension then they are no longer all that fantastic to me.

Reed would basically be the professor from Gilligan's Island.

Would that make Sue Mary Ann? LOL.

It's rather easy to explain. If you get in a tussle with Kang (or Rama Tut or whomever), defeat him, but get transported to 2020, you're not an idiot. You are, from everyone else's perspective, gone for quite some time. From your perspective, 1965 (or whatever) was yesterday. It doesn't mean they are "trapped" or building huts out of palm trees.
 
So you want a team that will spend their entire time in the MCU wanting to go back "home" ? No thanks because that is exactly what Reed will focus on time on finding a way back home in which it would also be unrealistic if he did not as well. So nope nope nope nope nope. At least Cap knew what he was doing when he crashed that plane but doing that to the FF HELL ****ING NO

Methinks you're overreacting and writing a narrative I wasn't suggesting. I can appreciate that you don't want a 60s FF and that's fine. Who says they would spend their entire time trying to get back home? Maybe they are fine with where they ended up or maybe Reed figures out a way to jump back and forth. Maybe they can jump to the future or possible futures. At the end of the day, it is what the writers say it is and not what we say it is.

I don't mind if they set them in modern times. Mainly I just want them back.

EDIT: The bottom line is that if the writers do their jobs right, we're gonna love it no matter what.
 
The way I would do it if I was a fan of the whole 60s crap ? Have the Fantastic Four be from another Earth set in the 60s (explains why they were never heard of on The Avengers Earth. Perhaps have them come from a war torn / destroyed Earth from an event that happened while the Fantastic Four was in Space so use Doctor Strange to bring them to this Earth how about that ? This way they have their own history / has their powers & their origins are kept away from the MCU & they can still do origin prequels set in the 60s but its not The Avengers Earth

Yeah, sure whatever....just do it right. I don't think you NEED to do it from another earth. Just because no one mentioned them doesn't mean they were never heard of.
 
Why do they only have to exist in the 1960s? Why close off Doom from interacting with all the modern heroes?

They don't. And I've never said anything close to that.

In case I haven't been clear (and based on some of the odd responses I'm getting, maybe I have to make it crystal clear ).

If it were completely up to me and I were writing the script, I would set the first Marvel FF film in current times.

I think that would work better. I'd like to see the interactions between the characters. I'd like to see Thing fighting Hulk and I'd like to see the Human Torch and Spider-man hanging out together.

But my preferences and motivations are completely irrelevant (though some people seem fascinated with them and insist that what I say isn't really what I believe and I must have some hidden agenda) to the point that a retro film would be completely workable and fit what has already been established without any inherent contradiction to what has come before.

As far as I can tell so far.

It's quite possible that someone can point something out to me that I haven't identified yet that will be a problem (certain elements would clearly be problems and require work-arounds ), and I would be more than happy to discuss those real logistical problems if someone can identify one.
 
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