The Rebooted "Keep Hope Alive" (that the rights can revert back to Marvel) Thread - Part 9

[metaphysician]

To go back to the subject of rights, my personal theory as to why Marvel haven't made an outright buy is due to Perlmutter. Also on Fox's end, we can safely assume that they refuse to give them up for free. And why would they? They likely paid through the nose for them, only to have the end-result be a bunch of stinkers.

However, this also ties into another question that's been on my mind: Are Fox allowed, or is it breaking the terms of the original purchase, to sell the rights to another company, like say Warner Brothers or Universal?

Now, assuming that they are allowed to do that (and they more likely are), What I'm saying boils down to this: If Marvel really do want the F4, they'd better hurry up and come to some kind of a deal with Fox before the latter turn to another company who IS willing to pay them money for the rights.

I am 99% certain the rights are non-transferable. They aren't some packet of papers you can pass off, but a contract specifying what things the licensee is allowed to do, with the licensee identified by name. Fox can't sell them because Fox doesn't own anything. They merely have been granted a license by Marvel. If someone else wants a license, they have to go to Marvel.

 

[metaphysician]

Well, what if the pre-Fantastic Four are scientists from the 21st century but get stranded in the 1960s with no way back to their own time because the technology is so primitive. So they settle there for a number of years, trying to make the best of their situation and keep a low profile. Then Reed one day discovers a way back home and steals a rocket. But then they are bombarded with cosmic rays after they time jump, and upon their return to their own time in the 21st century, they gain super powers and become the Fantastic Four.

Then there's no problem of them being a fish out of water in the 21st century. They'd only be that for a while in the 60s, but their attempt to get back is what causes the event that gives them their powers.

If you have to build a giant mess of a kludge like this to achieve your story goals? Its your story goals that are the problem, and need to be revisited. With an axe.

 

[metaphysician]

Not being mentioned in a movie doesn't mean something was forgotten.

Did they forget about Michael Jackson?
Did they forget about OJ Simpson and the low-Speed Bronco Chase?
Did they forget Yuri Gagarin was the first man in space?
Did they forget about the Korean War?
Did they forget about prohibition?
Did they forget the Earth rotates around the sun?
Did they forget the square root of 4 is +/- 2?

Or did they just not mention the 100 million well-known things that they knew about but didn't mention because the topic didn't come up in conversation?

At this point, you're just being obtuse.

The MCU doesn't need to mention every possible person who actually does exist, to make clear facts about the setting. One of those facts is "Between WWII and the Present, there was not a tradition of public superherodom". Vast swaths of the movies are premised in things like "the world changing when Iron Man went public", or "a long history of *secret* weirdness". Prior weirdness ranged from "very low profile" to "urban legend" to "totally secret".

Long story short: the MCU doesn't need to explicitly contradict something to make it incompatible. All something needs to be incompatible is to contradict the established trends in the setting in a way that would warrant and require notice. "A bunch of obvious superhumans running around the 60s as public celebrity adventurers" is *waaay* into that territory. Introducing them as such would most definitely be a retcon.

 

[InCali]

Not being mentioned in a movie doesn't mean something was forgotten.

Did they forget about Michael Jackson?
Did they forget about OJ Simpson and the low-Speed Bronco Chase?
Did they forget Yuri Gagarin was the first man in space?
Did they forget about the Korean War?
Did they forget about prohibition?
Did they forget the Earth rotates around the sun?
Did they forget the square root of 4 is +/- 2?

Or did they just not mention the 100 million well-known things that they knew about but didn't mention because the topic didn't come up in conversation?

At this point, you're just being obtuse.

The MCU doesn't need to mention every possible person who actually does exist, to make clear facts about the setting. One of those facts is "Between WWII and the Present, there was not a tradition of public superherodom". Vast swaths of the movies are premised in things like "the world changing when Iron Man went public", or "a long history of *secret* weirdness". Prior weirdness ranged from "very low profile" to "urban legend" to "totally secret".

Long story short: the MCU doesn't need to explicitly contradict something to make it incompatible. All something needs to be incompatible is to contradict the established trends in the setting in a way that would warrant and require notice. "A bunch of obvious superhumans running around the 60s as public celebrity adventurers" is *waaay* into that territory. Introducing them as such would most definitely be a retcon.

That's not being obtuse. Friends.....it's a MOVIE...good writers do good work....I've seen it happen. We're not talking Hugo, Tolstoy, Dickens, etc. or even Shawshank Redemption (loved the "obtuse" reference BTW). It CAN work if you do a good job on the script, but that isn't to say "this is how it's going to go".....live with it and don't get so damn locked into "your" way....relax. Marvel has done a good job so far and to think they can't continue is, well.....go talk to Disney and tell them why your vision is so compelling...

Most of shouldn't be paid as writers....that's WHY we aren't writers.

Methinks...mailman Willie has a bit of a leg up on most of us.

 

[Dark Raven]

I thought Willie Lumpkin is a writer and has several books published which you can buy on Amazon.

 

[DyfeddRex]

I thought Willie Lumpkin is a writer and has several books published which you can buy on Amazon.

He is, and might not be the only one here that way. Writers can be fanboys/fangirls too, it often is how they got their start, reading other tales and being fans of it.

 

[Dark Raven]

He is, and might not be the only one here that way. Writers can be fanboys/fangirls too, it often is how they got their start, reading other tales and being fans of it.

I think there are a fair number, and some may not even admit to it to preserve their anonymity.

 

[DyfeddRex]

Frankly, I think, if the rights have a chance of reverting, our next set of clues won't drop until more comes out from TR or IW. Spidey, maybe, but the only thing I would expect there would be, if this is happening, him hanging on the side of a certain building, or walking past it on some sojourn over to Manhattan.

 

[Zarex]

. . . other than the general lack of any sign that public superheroes were a thing between Cap and Iron Man? The lack of any mention of them in contexts where it would have been relevant? The treatment of Tony Stark as some kind of new thing changing the world totally with his public super science?

There's been a lack of any sign that the Vietnam War was a thing between Cap and Iron Man. And what context would have been relevant for Tony to discuss a team of adventurers operating before he was a twinkle in Howard's eye?
Folks keep saying a 60s era FF is incompatible with the MCU, but they struggle coming up with any examples.

And Tony changed the world with privately held weaponry that was a threat to armed forces in the U.S. and abroad. There was no talk of "super-science" That's Reed.

 

[DyfeddRex]

I won't say that it is incompatible, just a tougher sell, initially. Now, this is Fiege and crew we are talking about, so it could be made to work, and spectacularly. But, given what Fox has done to the franchise, it would be a tough row of crops to hoe out, Zarex.

I'm not deadset against it, I could see Peyton pulling it off for Marvel Studios, even Derekson. But, the best bet at pulling it off would be if Gunn had a hand in it as well right now. I'd even give the Russo's a shot, but they seem to have their hands full with IW and A4. Hell, Taika's take might even be a blast, if they can keep him in the fold long enough for rights reversion or a deal with Fox, given what that TR trailer showed of his vision of part of the Marvel Cosmic Universe.

But, alas, until we hear otherwise, the rights are at Fox, and while Rothman is not there to screw it up now, I have little hope of a great FF movie from that studio.

Besides, I still think the best thing I want from FF is for the Hulk to finally have a fight where the opponent can go toe-to-toe with him for a prolonged battle, and that requires our Ever-Loving Blue-eyed Thing.

 

[Willie Lumpkin]

I won't say that it is incompatible, just a tougher sell,

I think this is the key point. There are a lot of difficulties associated with a retro film and fans (based on the poll in the other thread) prefer a modern film.

And even though there don't appear to be any specific contradictions in the other films, many fans have inferred that the FF couldn't have existed.

A retro film would be far riskier in many ways, and they should only consider it if they're damn sure they can pull it off.

 

[Willie Lumpkin]

... And I'm only a writer by hobby. I don't take it that seriously and certainly wouldn't claim it makes anything I say less of a load of BS than it is.

But I have sold a book or two.

 

[Zarex]

Though at this time I prefer a 60s version, I'll be happy with the FF in the MCU regardless of what time period they happen to exist. But let's look at some of the concerns for folks who are strongly opposed to a retro version:

1) We're missing out on Pete and Johnny's friendship, Hulk vs. Thing and Reed outsmarting Tony!

Time travel is a thing, so we're not necessarily missing out on any of those meetings. But if the only reason for putting the FF in the modern day MCU is crossover potential, I would reconsider that line of thought. We don't know how much longer the Sony/Marvel agreement on Spidey will continue, or if Sony would allow Pete showing up in an FF film. Thor appears to have replaced Ben as Bruce's punching buddy, and we don't know what role either of these founding Avengers will take in the MCU post Infinity War. And I wouldn't be surprised if Stark is either retired or dead by the time the FF gets rebooted into the MCU.

2) Aliens weren't publicly acknowleged in the MCU until Thor came down to earth!

Well, we know from Guardians, Thor and AOS (I know, its TV) that aliens have been dabbling in earth since pre-history. So it could be entirely possible that the FF could have had run ins with Galactus ("Weather Balloon" - government scientist) and the Silver Surfer ("Experimental Aircraft" - government scientist) without being widely acknowleged. In the 60s there were no camera phones, internet, or recording devices posted on every major urban intersection. It would have been a lot easier to cover those things up back in the day.

1) The FF are high profile celebrity adventurers. Why hasn't anyone in the MCU mentioned them? Huh, why not? You can't explain it, can you?!

They have been mentioned, numerous times. But every conversation regarding the FF since 2008 has been cut from the film or TV show due to run times. All of these discussions of a team that existed before many of the MCU heroes were born will be revealed in the Marvel One Shot "Whatever Happened to the Fantastic Four?" Highlights include:

- The complete conversation between Fury and Stark at the end of Iron Man : "I'm here to talk to you about the Avengers Initiative. It's a superhero team, kinda like the FF back in the day. Remember them? Nah, you're probably too young. I think your father did some work with them back in the 60s."

- The complete conversation between Ross and Blonsky in The Incredible Hulk: "That thing is Banner. He's become incredibly powerful, like a bigger version of The Thing from back in the 60s. Remember him? Nah, you're probably too young. He was on a team with Sue Storm - wow she was something! I used to collect all the magazines with her.........Oh right, we were talking about Banner"

- The complete conversation between Cap and Bruce during the Battle of New York: "Hulk. Smash. Just like Ben Grimm used to do back in the day. Yeah, I missed out on a lot of stuff while I was in the ice. But I've been trying to catch up. Did you ever see him in person? Nah, you're probably too young. Anyhoo, go smash those aliens!

 

[InCali]

I won't say that it is incompatible, just a tougher sell, initially. Now, this is Fiege and crew we are talking about, so it could be made to work, and spectacularly. But, given what Fox has done to the franchise, it would be a tough row of crops to hoe out, Zarex.

I'm not deadset against it, I could see Peyton pulling it off for Marvel Studios, even Derekson. But, the best bet at pulling it off would be if Gunn had a hand in it as well right now. I'd even give the Russo's a shot, but they seem to have their hands full with IW and A4. Hell, Taika's take might even be a blast, if they can keep him in the fold long enough for rights reversion or a deal with Fox, given what that TR trailer showed of his vision of part of the Marvel Cosmic Universe.

But, alas, until we hear otherwise, the rights are at Fox, and while Rothman is not there to screw it up now, I have little hope of a great FF movie from that studio.

Besides, I still think the best thing I want from FF is for the Hulk to finally have a fight where the opponent can go toe-to-toe with him for a prolonged battle, and that requires our Ever-Loving Blue-eyed Thing.

I think Taika would be a perfect fit for FF. THAT is something I would run to see. The downside is that you've got me thinking in that direction and I'm gonna be bummed if it doesn't happen. Thanks.

... And I'm only a writer by hobby. I don't take it that seriously and certainly wouldn't claim it makes anything I say less of a load of BS than it is.

But I have sold a book or two.

A pox on you and your false modesty.

You're a frelling writer....

 

[Dark Raven]

Though at this time I prefer a 60s version, I'll be happy with the FF in the MCU regardless of what time period they happen to exist. But let's look at some of the concerns for folks who are strongly opposed to a retro version:

1) We're missing out on Pete and Johnny's friendship, Hulk vs. Thing and Reed outsmarting Tony!

Time travel is a thing, so we're not necessarily missing out on any of those meetings. But if the only reason for putting the FF in the modern day MCU is crossover potential, I would reconsider that line of thought. We don't know how much longer the Sony/Marvel agreement on Spidey will continue, or if Sony would allow Pete showing up in an FF film. Thor appears to have replaced Ben as Bruce's punching buddy, and we don't know what role either of these founding Avengers will take in the MCU post Infinity War. And I wouldn't be surprised if Stark is either retired or dead by the time the FF gets rebooted into the MCU.

2) Aliens weren't publicly acknowleged in the MCU until Thor came down to earth!

Well, we know from Guardians, Thor and AOS (I know, its TV) that aliens have been dabbling in earth since pre-history. So it could be entirely possible that the FF could have had run ins with Galactus ("Weather Balloon" - government scientist) and the Silver Surfer ("Experimental Aircraft" - government scientist) without being widely acknowleged. In the 60s there were no camera phones, internet, or recording devices posted on every major urban intersection. It would have been a lot easier to cover those things up back in the day.

1) The FF are high profile celebrity adventurers. Why hasn't anyone in the MCU mentioned them? Huh, why not? You can't explain it, can you?!

They have been mentioned, numerous times. But every conversation regarding the FF since 2008 has been cut from the film or TV show due to run times. All of these discussions of a team that existed before many of the MCU heroes were born will be revealed in the Marvel One Shot "Whatever Happened to the Fantastic Four?" Highlights include:

- The complete conversation between Fury and Stark at the end of Iron Man : "I'm here to talk to you about the Avengers Initiative. It's a superhero team, kinda like the FF back in the day. Remember them? Nah, you're probably too young. I think your father did some work with them back in the 60s."

- The complete conversation between Ross and Blonsky in The Incredible Hulk: "That thing is Banner. He's become incredibly powerful, like a bigger version of The Thing from back in the 60s. Remember him? Nah, you're probably too young. He was on a team with Sue Storm - wow she was something! I used to collect all the magazines with her.........Oh right, we were talking about Banner"

- The complete conversation between Cap and Bruce during the Battle of New York: "Hulk. Smash. Just like Ben Grimm used to do back in the day. Yeah, I missed out on a lot of stuff while I was in the ice. But I've been trying to catch up. Did you ever see him in person? Nah, you're probably too young. Anyhoo, go smash those aliens!

Regarding the FF's celebrity status, there were many actors who were celebrities back in the 60s who were huge, but are barely talked about these days. Some people don't even know who they are, especially millennials. Raquel Welch was a big 60s icon and pin up girl, yet I've met lots of people who have never heard of her. Same goes for many other people or things. I bet some people watching Winter Soldier didn't even know who Robert Redford was. And if you mentioned the name Steve McQueen these days, people might just think he's some black director.

There are even people who have never seen Back to the Future.

 

[Willie Lumpkin]

Regarding the FF's celebrity status, there were many actors who were celebrities back in the 60s who were huge, but are barely talked about these days. Some people don't even know who they are, especially millennials. Raquel Welch was a big 60s icon and pin up girl, yet I've met lots of people who have never heard of her. Same goes for many other people or things. I bet some people watching Winter Soldier didn't even know who Robert Redford was. And if you mentioned the name Steve McQueen these days, people might just think he's some black director.

There are even people who have never seen Back to the Future.

When they had that "10 Bands I've seen and One I haven't" thing on facebook, I had Steely Dan on my list.

A friend in her late 20's said Steely Dan was the fake one and then she went on to say she didn't think Steely Dan was a real band.

 

[Stark Bauer]

The thought of a live action Dr. Doom with ironman like tech and Dr. Strange like magic would be so dope.

AGREED.


Hope it looks like this

 

[DyfeddRex]

When they had that "10 Bands I've seen and One I haven't" thing on facebook, I had Steely Dan on my list.

A friend in her late 20's said Steely Dan was the fake one and then she went on to say she didn't think Steely Dan was a real band.

Mine would have to be one band I've seen, and 10 I haven't. LOL.

Yes, this is true, we could still get a 60's origin for them, but how relevant to the modern, younger GA would that be? Mad Men scored big in older demographics, not as much with the younger, if I remember right. Being old, I might not be correct on that, my memory is beginning to slip...
"ya young whippersnappers, back in my day, we walked to school, uphill both ways, in a blizzard during July..." wait... nope, just checked the climate record on that one.

 

[Gamma Goliath]

AGREED.


Hope it looks like this

Bingo.

 

[NealKenneth]

Some people here vastly overestimate how big of a "problem" it would be for the FF to not be mentioned yet despite being a functioning superhero team in the 60s. This is the kind of thing that only bothers 1% of the audience who buys a ticket, just like the people who were bothered by Captain America not getting help during Winter Soldier or Tony during Iron Man 3. Yes, we get what you're saying, but it really doesn't bother 99% of people because we understand these are films and not a documentary.

Nothing has been perfect about the MCU since day one. If they want to go to the 60s, I want them to as well. I want them to tell the story they want to tell, not worry about such a trivial problem.

 

[dax]

Some people here vastly overestimate how big of a "problem" it would be for the FF to not be mentioned yet despite being a functioning superhero team in the 60s. This is the kind of thing that only bothers 1% of the audience who buys a ticket, just like the people who were bothered by Captain America not getting help during Winter Soldier or Tony during Iron Man 3. Yes, we get what you're saying, but it really doesn't bother 99% of people because we understand these are films and not a documentary.

Nothing has been perfect about the MCU since day one. If they want to go to the 60s, I want them to as well. I want them to tell the story they want to tell, not worry about such a trivial problem.

There's a reason why neither Captain America nor Iron Man got any help in their respective films. Thor is either still on Asgard or busy fighting battles on different realms (as shown on Thor: the Dark World) while Bruce Banner/Hulk is still hiding from the US government including Thunderbolt Ross who are hunting for him. Also, Iron Man himself admitted that "he doesn't play well with others" and that he's hated Cap his whole life which is why he never called him for help in Iron Man 3. Even if he wanted to, he had to recover from his heart surgery so either way, he was no help to Cap during Winter Soldier.

 

[Lilbaz]

Lets put them in the 60's so they can time travel to the present.

Makes total sense.

 

[GoblinScrier]

AGREED.


Hope it looks like this

THAT...is the perfection that is DOOM....I would give anything to see THAT look adapted to the big screen, with an Eastern European accent, atop his castle looking over Latveria, with the royal flag blowing in the wind...I would probably need an onsite nurse to revive me from the sheer joy of seeing a MCU comic book properly adapted DOOM....

 

[Crimz]

Not a fan of the 60's thing but having thought on it, it may be possible.

If you make people think that everything they did were tricks and publicity stunts, you could avoid the "being shocked by Iron Man" thing. It would require them fighting a villain that doesn't destroy the city or something, which is easy to do. Focus on the celebrity and public doubt of the fantastic powers, then make them disappear to the future.

Doom can still be alive and youthful. If the Ancient One can, then it's not so far-fetched for him.

My main problem is the "fish out of water" aspect that entails these types of stories. That's not an FF story, it's a Captain America one if anybody. I wouldn't want too much time wasted on trying to fit into the modern world. But It would be fun having Ben being the only one who's speech hasn't fully adapted to modern times, he could still use "Clobberin' Time!" and other things without it feeling out of place.

 

[Jordacar]

Part 2 of MovieBob's "How to Fix the FF (in the MCU)" is up!

Spoiler

I have to say, I'm pretty well sold on making Puppet Master their first major big bad (especially the way he uses him). The movies never had any idea what to do with him, and they could never make Alicia anything besides Ben's gf.

Pretty much everything he says about Doom, I've been saying for years (namely don't make him the origin villain under any circumstances). I'm not sure how he would work the time-travel with him, but by the end I'm convinced it's doable either way. Plus, his idea for the post-credits stinger is close to what I've always imagined.

While he makes a good case for the time-displaced '60s origin in part 1, the best stuff in part 2 could be done pretty easily without the time-travel IMO.