The Dark Knight Rises The TDKR General Discussion Thread - - - - - - Part 138

[Shpati]

I hear rumors.

You guys think Warner Brothers forced Nolan to actually make TDKR shorter? Hence all the quick cuts and such.

 

[jacobed]

Haheha no. WB has no say when it comes to Nolan's movies.

 

[pixiesvision]

I didn't hate it, I just thought it's Nolan's worst film by far, so I'm quite disappointed.

To be honest I've seen a lot of nitpicking on the board about why the film didn't work which I think are absolutely tiny issues that don't effect the overall quality at all. There are elements of it which are quite divisive such as Blake taking up the mantle and Bruce retiring which, again, I have no problem with in theory.

My problem with the film is that none of the choices taken in it create any suspense or tension for me, and without that tension there can be no catharsis by the time it all wraps up in a neat, happy little bow. It's all bombast with very little subtlety or intelligence, and I feel it loses a lot of character and dynamism as a result of that.

Some of this is kind of how I feel too, except for me Insomnia and Following are Nolan's weakest films, and I don't necessarily find Blake finding the Batcave my preferred ending

I watched TDKR 4 times so far. I think that I started to see that the film does suffer from too many characters. I'm fine with the ending of Bruce settling down and finding happiness, but I would have liked to have it go down a bit differently. It seemed like the goodbye to the Bruce/Batman we all knew for these years was rushed off the screen. I would have liked to see Talia more fleshed out, or not have been included at all. Bane is a worthy adversary, and with a compelling enough reason to go after Gotham, he would have been fine as the sole villain, imo.

I would also have given more screentime to develop Bruce and Selina's relationship, and if I had my way, I wouldn't have had John Blake as a character. I think *for me* there would be a greater focusing on Bruce's impact on Gotham as a whole, instead of concentrating it down to one John Blake. That I would have liked to see.

The first 2 times I saw it, I was thinking to myself that I might enjoy it more than TDK. But now, there's several shortcomings that bother me. Not plotholes, just the story in general, and how Nolan chose to close out the trilogy (not just the ending per se, I mean the whole 2hrs and 45 min).

 

[Jokers_Wild]

Some of this is kind of how I feel too, except for me Insomnia and Following are Nolan's weakest films, and I don't necessarily find Blake finding the Batcave my preferred ending

I watched TDKR 4 times so far. I think that I started to see that the film does suffer from too many characters. I'm fine with the ending of Bruce settling down and finding happiness, but I would have liked to have it go down a bit differently. It seemed like the goodbye to the Bruce/Batman we all knew for these years was rushed off the screen. I would have liked to see Talia more fleshed out, or not have been included at all. Bane is a worthy adversary, and with a compelling enough reason to go after Gotham, he would have been fine as the sole villain, imo.

I would also have given more screentime to develop Bruce and Selina's relationship, and if I had my way, I wouldn't have had John Blake as a character. I think *for me* there would be a greater focusing on Bruce's impact on Gotham as a whole, instead of concentrating it down to one John Blake. That I would have liked to see.

The first 2 times I saw it, I was thinking to myself that I might enjoy it more than TDK. But now, there's several shortcomings that bother me. Not plotholes, just the story in general, and how Nolan chose to close out the trilogy (not just the ending per se, I mean the whole 2hrs and 45 min).

That's fair enough. I guess the issue with getting rid of Miranda, or Talia, is who is on the inside feeding Bane all the information about Lucius' secret stash and the access to the nuclear reactor-- all that would have to be re-written. But I kinda agree. I almost wish Bane had been Ra's son and was fulfilling his father's legacy. Of course, what Nolan did was actually a little bit closer to the comics...and I also like that Bane was shown to not be an absolute monster with the explanation of his background and protecting Talia. There are definitely a few things I would change about the movies (even Begins and TDK) but overall, I'm pretty happy with what Nolan did, and I'm not sure anyone will ever top it when it comes to Batman on film.

 

[James.B]

I hear rumors.

You guys think Warner Brothers forced Nolan to actually make TDKR shorter? Hence all the quick cuts and such.

In an interview with Empire they ask him if the rumor of a four hour cut was true ,he say's it was just another crazy rumor and that he wouldn't want to sit through a longer version of this film.

He also said he was able to tell the Studio two year's before what the run time would be and he arrived on the money.

 

[pixiesvision]

That's fair enough. I guess the issue with getting rid of Miranda, or Talia, is who is on the inside feeding Bane all the information about Lucius' secret stash and the access to the nuclear reactor-- all that would have to be re-written. But I kinda agree. I almost wish Bane had been Ra's son and was fulfilling his father's legacy. Of course, what Nolan did was actually a little bit closer to the comics...and I also like that Bane was shown to not be an absolute monster with the explanation of his background and protecting Talia. There are definitely a few things I would change about the movies (even Begins and TDK) but overall, I'm pretty happy with what Nolan did, and I'm not sure anyone will ever top it when it comes to Batman on film.

I still like movie overall, but I keep thinking what other ways the story could have gone. I shouldn't cause I know I wouldn't be able to come up with a better story, but something just feels off.

I think TDKR might be a movie I keep going back and forth on. I liked it on each viewing, and then have bouts of questioning it... but then I'll like it again.

 

[Shpati]

A great conclusion. I watched it for the 3rd time, and I enjoyed it just as much as when I watched it for the first time.

I just felt sad that it is over.

I hope Nolan produces the reboot in the future.

 

[Dragon_316ca]

I noticed in the trilogy, we never saw Gordon fired a single shot from his own gun. I thought that was interesting.

 

[ChrisB]

I hear rumors.

You guys think Warner Brothers forced Nolan to actually make TDKR shorter? Hence all the quick cuts and such.

There was a technical limit on the IMAX projectors. He couldn't have made it any longer even if he wanted to.

 

[Deserana]

I noticed in the trilogy, we never saw Gordon fired a single shot from his own gun. I thought that was interesting.

He did in the script!!!!

Infact I am shocked what they done instead of the Gordon shooting.

The scene where Batman shoots at the front of the truck and clearly kills the driver was orginally Gordon shooting him from the back of the truck.

 

[VM1138]

The only "flaw" I can think of occurred to me recently. Batman is stabbed and exhausted at the courthouse, but then he's perfectly fine chasing Talia and disposing of the bomb.

Am I just mis-remembering this? I've only seen it once. But I don't think he's shown struggling or in pain after Catwoman saves him.

This is the only thing I can think of that I would consider a mistake in the film. Oh, and Selina and Bruce's relationship being sort of glossed over. Everything else was fantastic.

 

[Deserana]

The only "flaw" I can think of occurred to me recently. Batman is stabbed and exhausted at the courthouse, but then he's perfectly fine chasing Talia and disposing of the bomb.

Am I just mis-remembering this? I've only seen it once. But I don't think he's shown struggling or in pain after Catwoman saves him.

This is the only thing I can think of that I would consider a mistake in the film. Oh, and Selina and Bruce's relationship being sort of glossed over. Everything else was fantastic.

He should have been more in pain but he didn't look exhausted at any moment in the final battle.

 

[kvz5]

^ Final battle? You mean the Bats/Bane fight or chase scene? If it's the fight, he wasn't stabbed yet.

I do recall that he was limping in the set video of the Batman/Catwoman/Gordon/dying Talia scene but I don't think that's the take they used.

 

[Deserana]

I just mean the whole of it. From the Bats/Bane fight to Talia's death he didn't look exhausted.

 

[Kane52630]

 

[Pfeiffer-Pfan]

His whole body had to move there...

Bet he needed a lemsip after that one.

 

[venus_ice]

Oh my god

 

[Deserana]

Is Bruce spitting there?

 

[Jeppoc]

Is Bruce spitting there?

That's what real actors do.

[YT]0ISJS4gSBh0[/YT]

 

[Deserana]

That's what real actors do.

[YT]0ISJS4gSBh0[/YT]

 

[D4rkShaDoWz]

That episode of Friends with Gary Oldman is one of my favorites!

 

[TacomaTruck90]

So when does the DVD come out ?

 

[Pfeiffer-Pfan]

So when does the DVD come out ?

Early December no doubt.

 

[filmboy33]

Really? There's nothing and anyone who says differently is a blind apologist?


How about Bane's words: "Take them upstairs. People of their status deserve to watch the ushering of the next stage in Western Civilization."

"We will fullfill Ra's al Ghul's destiny."

"Fullfill Ra's al Ghul's destiny."

"Balance will be restored."

"Fullfilll my father's destiny...."

We have Ra's making an appearance in Bruce's cell to talk about decadence, how the world must be cleansed. Qoute: An heir to ensure the League of Shadows fulfills its duty to restore balance to civilization.

Pretty sure, anyone who can put two and two together, can get that they wanted to plunge the world into a new age, and its perfectly reasoanble that you expect your audience to be familiar with the prior films before seeing hte TRILOGY CLOSER!.

*Sigh*

Why do I even bother trying to explain things to individuals who clearly are unwilling to understand clear logic? Or maybe they are unable, at which point I just feel pity that some people here just lack the mental facilities to see fact and fact and say -- "Well then I don't like their approach." That line, I total respect. YOU DONT LIKE IT -- doesn't mean the majority of critics or the world need to fall in line with you. The film did not let you down. It simply didn't cater to your tastes and expectations. Own them, don't try to pawn them off on the film

I feel like those who dislike this movie have forgotten that they are in a VERY VERY VERY small minority whose desperation makes their complaints and voices seem larger than they actually are.

Bosef,

I understand what you are saying here. There are lines in the film that reference the revolution that is supposedly at the heart of Bane and Talia's plan. I was never confused by their motives, but rather I never really felt I saw their plan in action.

In Batman Begins, we saw how bad Gotham had gotten economically during the time when Bruce was a child and later when he returns to attend the trial of Joe Chill. That was The League of Shadows initial plan. Later, we see how panicked the people in the narrows are as the fear toxin is released, the second attempt by the League to take out Gotham. In both cases, we see the people of Gotham in peril and realize what is at stake, we see the plans in action.

In TDKR, all we see is bridges blown up and small groups of people huddled in buildings. Based on what is SHOWN in the film, all Bane has done is cut off the main island of Gotham from the rest of the world by blowing up a few bridges. He still allows food and supplies through for the people of Gotham, the citizens can still use their cell phones, watch their televisions, etc. Sure, sure you have the all too brief scene of the wealthy of Gotham being rounded up (which was never really made clear it was the so called people of Gotham doing the rounding up and looked rather like Bane's thugs). But other than that the people of Gotham are curiously MIA for alot of the film.

That is what could be confusing some people about Bane and Talia's plan. When Ra's blew through Gotham, there was some real danger and it was SHOWN on screen. The worst Bane does is force people to walk across ice and stay in their homes. I understand there was the constant threat of that bomb going off, but Nolan never shows any of the average citizens of Gotham in fear over it. If he had thrown in one or two scenes with people huddled in their homes, glued to their televisions, with looks of dread and fear, then perhaps Bane's plan would have felt more dangerous, more menacing.

But as played out in the film, it all seems rather pointless. I never felt the people in Gotham were ever in any real danger. I know, the bomb. Yes there was that. But the people were receiving aid, the cops were receiving food in the sewers, and the city itself looked pretty clean and orderly despite the fact that it was cut off from the rest of the world. I mean criminals were running loose and yet the city looks just as it had before Bane arrived.

Nolan never fully commits in regards to truly showing how Bane's plan would really play out. It was said in print and on television by Team Nolan that Bane was going to go further than the Joker did in TDK. Yet, I feel the Joker was far more menacing and his plan far more dangerous. We see the city in panic when Joker finally puts his plan in motion. Joker blows up a hospital, he kidnaps patients, he puts people into a state of real panic and most importantly we see that play out with the people of Gotham.

Nolan really forgot to include in TDKR one of the most important characters in his series to this point: the citizens of Gotham. Show me some people trying to escape in their panic and being killed for it. Show me families scared, children clinging to their parents. Show me people joining the revolution and becoming part of Bane's militia. Show Bane destroying buildings. Show the city in ruins, truly hellish.

You can't claim Nolan held back to appeal to families, because TDK sure didn't and it went on to make over $1 billion in BO. It feels more like Nolan just wasn't truly invested in the material this time. It is a shame. I understand this gentleman's argument that Bane and Talia's plan seemed more about revenge than finishing Ra's legacy. Sure we were told what it was about but I never felt we were ever really SHOWN. And that is an important distinction and one that really kind of ruins the film for me.

 

[KalMart]

That's what real actors do.

[YT]0ISJS4gSBh0[/YT]

t:

That reminds me of years back when I was starting in editorial and on set for a film called Basquiat. As camera was setting up someplace downtown, off to the side near crafty was Oldman, Hopper, Bowie, and Walken.....and they were playing hack-sack. Just the image was surreal. It was funny because of the noises and laughs, especially Oldman (his yelling voice in that video is what reminds me of it)....but the only Bowie and Walken were even passable at it. Hopper couldn't even get a leg on it and just laughed most of the time. I wish we had camera phones back then because I would have definitely taken a pic as my screensaver. It was bizarre, but hilarious...just off to the side as everyone else was setting up. You could probably have made an entire photo album...or like a short film...of just that game.