The Dark Knight Rises The TDKR General Discussion Thread - - - - - - - - - - Part 142

[Kane52630]

And that, in essence is the problem....you admittedly aren't well versed in this stuff, so why go around calling half the rogues gallery Joker ripoffs?

It's pretty much the only time Nolan has said something that made me roll my eyes.

I agree.

 

[The Batman]

I will give Nolan credit for being open minded enough to put Catwoman in the movie, though.

 

[KalMart]

I do too somewhat, but it still felt too abbreviated like other elements of the film. No particular dislike of Catwoman in general, but I also feel that the movie would have been better in terms of having more room for other aspects if they didn't include her.

 

[The Joker]

No, no, Joker, you see, that's not what Chris Nolan meant when he called Riddler and the most of the other Bat Rogues "Watered down Jokers". t:

And I've apparently misinterpreted J Nolan putting Penguin and Clayface in the same category as "Sci Fi supernatural villains", even though the only thing close to sci-fi/supernatural about Penguin is his nose, which isnt sci fi OR supernatural, but even then, his nose could easily be altered for a "realistic" take, cause after all, if they can make a luchadore lookalike who pumps himself up with supersteroids to become a 7 foot monster "believable", Penguin shouldn't be a problem, at least in theory.

IMO, it would just be easier to say that they don't care for or know much about most of the Bat rogues gallery...it would also pretty much be the truth. But let me stop ranting before the nolan brigade comes in.

Nolan actually called most of Batman's villains watered down Jokers?

 

[The Batman]

Nolan actually called most of Batman's villains watered down Jokers?

http://movies.msn.com/paralleluniverse/dark-knight-rises-prologue/story/across-the-universe/

To be fair, he actually says "A lot" instead of "most".

 

[shauner111]

I remember Chris saying that Penguin would be "tricky" but i dont remember him saying anything else. Unless im mistaken.

I do understand his "most are watered down jokers" comment though. I do like Riddler but i understand the similarities. Black Mask has also been very Joker-like at times. Im sure he looks at Mad Hatter, etc as watered down as well. But Penguin or Freeze for example are entirely different monsters.

 

[The Joker]

http://movies.msn.com/paralleluniverse/dark-knight-rises-prologue/story/across-the-universe/

To be fair, he actually says "A lot" instead of "most".

What a load of bull. One reason why Batman's rogues gallery is generally considered the best is the diversity of them. They are all so unique and psychologically different. They are as different from each other as Batman is from them.

 

[Ryan]

Well at least Chris Nolan did admit he isn't well verse in Batman's history. He even admit he was fond of either Bane or Catwoman until Goyer gave him some insight.

I don't remember Nolan saying he wasn't well versed but I could be wrong. So many interviews out there. Anyways, I did read that he wasn't big on using Catwoman and was convinced by his brother I believe, to use her. I believe in the Dark Knight trilogy screenplay book he said that he had "come to like Bane", which didn't sound like the biggest rining endorsement. I never really heard him rave about any rogues except that he sounded really curious to view the joker through the prism they had created. Honestly, I've loved all of Nolan's interpretations of the villains, and that is what i'm miss most about seeing his films.

 

[shauner111]

What a load of bull. One reason why Batman's rogues gallery is generally considered the best is the diversity of them. They are all so unique and psychologically different. They are as different from each other as Batman is from them.

Well diversity is the strength of Batmans rogues gallery indeed, but i disagree that ALL of them are unique and different to one another. As a whole they represent many different genres but there are a lot of similarities. "Unique" is a strong word to use.

 

[BatmanBeyond]

But let me stop ranting before the nolan brigade comes in.

Cute.

I remember Chris saying that Penguin would be "tricky" but i dont remember him saying anything else. Unless im mistaken.

I do understand his "most are watered down jokers" comment though. I do like Riddler but i understand the similarities. Black Mask has also been very Joker-like at times. Im sure he looks at Mad Hatter, etc as watered down as well. But Penguin or Freeze for example are entirely different monsters.

I think what he meant to say was that a lot of Batman villains challenge him on a psychological level, although his phrasing of that viewpoint in the original interview was rather careless.

I could've seen Penguin working in this universe though.

 

[Ryan]

I find it funny that Nolan would view most/a lot of Bat's rogues as watered down Jokers. Ya, I do some some similarities, but even on the dark knight blu ray disc they go into great detail talking about how the joker,riddler,penguin, are so different psychologically.

 

[shauner111]

I think what he meant to say was that a lot of Batman villains challenge him on a psychological level, although his phrasing of that viewpoint in the original interview was rather careless.

Yeah most likely.

I find it funny that Nolan would view most/a lot of Bat's rogues as watered down Jokers. Ya, I do some some similarities, but even on the dark knight blu ray disc they go into great detail talking about how the joker,riddler,penguin, are so different psychologically.

I dont even remember that on the blu ray.

 

[TDK elbowstrike]

I find it funny that Nolan would view most/a lot of Bat's rogues as watered down Jokers. Ya, I do some some similarities, but even on the dark knight blu ray disc they go into great detail talking about how the joker,riddler,penguin, are so different psychologically.

I agree. They are different enough that they wouldn't come across as watered down versions of the J-man

FBI profilers have jobs for a reason. Because serial killers and murderers, no matter how similar they look at first glance, have different psychological profiles; hence the need to find each person's modus operandi.

There are organized killers, and disorganized killers. There are psychopaths and there are sociopaths. How do you think they find copycat killers? They can tell the difference because of subtle differences in thinking. They can tell that what drives the real serial killer is not the same as what drives his copycat killer.

If the Joker and the riddler were real people, would they have the same psychological profile? Would an FBI profiler call one a watered down version of the other? Of course not.

 

[The Joker]

Well diversity is the strength of Batmans rogues gallery indeed, but i disagree that ALL of them are unique and different to one another. As a whole they represent many different genres but there are a lot of similarities. "Unique" is a strong word to use.

Any similarities are surface deep. Yeah they're mostly crazy, obsessive, and housed in Arkham. But it's the brand of insanity and obsession that sets them apart as totally different characters.

The only villains I could actually call similar is The Mad Hatter and Tweedledum and Tweedledee, and that's because they're both Alice in Wonderland themed villains.

 

[BatLobster]

I think in the Nolanverse, The Riddler could have potentially come off as being similar to The Joker in that, being how deadly and how high the threat level was with The Joker in TDK, and especially given the twisted games Joker liked to play...to follow up that kind of carnage, this Riddler would have had to be pretty vicious and more of a terrorist.

Unfortunately the portrayals of Frank Gorshin and Jim Carrey might also play into people (such as Nolan) thinking of The Riddler as a Joker knock-off, as fun as those versions are.

But yeah, they have some significant differences when you get to the root of it. Riddler has a ton of potential as a character.

 

[Ryan]

I believe the featurette was on the psychology of batman. It was pretty interesting actually. They had sort of matched up rogues with famous criminals that matched their psychological profile. I just remember them putting the Riddler in the category of being vain and how he craved attention for his crimes. I think Penguin was profiled too. By the way, if Riddler is such a knock off, how come he made it into the Legion of Doom (so did Scarecrow) and Joker didn't in the old Superfriends cartoons. Take that Nolan!

 

[CJ]

I remember Chris saying that Penguin would be "tricky" but i dont remember him saying anything else. Unless im mistaken.

Could Nolan be thinking of the Rubber-Ducky riding, leader of a penguin army version by Tim Burton? Aside from Catwoman, he seems like the easiest out of all the villains out there to do.

 

[JackWhite]

I believe the featurette was on the psychology of batman. It was pretty interesting actually. They had sort of matched up rogues with famous criminals that matched their psychological profile. I just remember them putting the Riddler in the category of being vain and how he craved attention for his crimes. I think Penguin was profiled too. By the way, if Riddler is such a knock off, how come he made it into the Legion of Doom (so did Scarecrow) and Joker didn't in the old Superfriends cartoons. Take that Nolan!

That doc was really cool. I've watched it several times.

But yeah, I'm a huge Nolan fan, hell maybe even a "Nolanite", but when Chris said most of Bats rogue gallery are watered-down versions of the Joker, I rolled my eyes too.

It's weird though, but if Chris was really apprehensive about using Catwoman and Bane, and he didn't have an affinity for Riddler or Penguin, then who exactly did he have left to choose from? It seems like if it wasn't for Johnathan petitioning for Selina and Goyer for Bane, Chris wouldn't have had any antagonists for TDKR, lol.

 

[Travesty]

The irony of saying that the Riddler is a "watered down Joker", and then making his version of Bane a lot like his Ra's is amusing to me.

 

[akfj]

Could Nolan be thinking of the Rubber-Ducky riding, leader of a penguin army version by Tim Burton? Aside from Catwoman, he seems like the easiest out of all the villains out there to do.

I remember reading an interview with Nolan in which he said Burton's Penguin was the best version of the character. I think the interview was from around 2005.

 

[jmc]

The irony of saying that the Riddler is a "watered down Joker", and then making his version of Bane a lot like his Ra's is amusing to me.

Oh sweet, delicious irony.

 

[MAKAVELI25]

The irony of saying that the Riddler is a "watered down Joker", and then making his version of Bane a lot like his Ra's is amusing to me.

The man makes a good point

 

[BatLobster]

I think it's really clear that Nolan wanted to avoid anything that would even remotely remind the audience of The Joker at all costs, and that is very large in part because of Heath.

Now, I totally believe Nolan's Riddler could have been different enough, but that's just how he saw it. Making a literal connection between two characters is a different thing entirely.

 

[jmc]

The more I think about it the more hilarious that 'watered down' statement becomes.

 

[Agent Orange]

The Riddler is better suited as a periphery character anyway. If you can't have Batman go toe to toe with his arch-enemy the Joker in a trilogy capper then Bane is the next best thing. He's the only villain to truly break Batman's resolve and will to continue.