Discussion in 'The Dark Knight Rises' started by Thread Manager, Jan 7, 2013.
What is the weakest plot point in the trilogy? John Blake discovering Bruce is Batman?
Even if I didn't mind it, the worst plot point in the trilogy is the bomb, imo. Actually, the plot devices of a weapon being used in the trilogy are the worst plot points, such as the microwave emitter in BB.
Blake knowing Bruce is Batman isn't as awful as some think. It fits with a nod to Tim Drake as a representation of Robin.
It's one of the most hated scenes/plot points in the whole trilogy...Blake knowing who Bruce was....but it's one of my favorite scenes Nolan has done. I get emotional every time i see it.
I think because TDKR used more comic book tropes than the past two movies it sort of throws people off. Bane punching through solid concrete pillars, Blake magically finding out someones identity based on a feeling in his bones, The Bat, Every single cop in Gotham going to _____ location because there's a supposed threat when in reality they're being taken on a ride, the Lazarus pit, leg brace, magical chiropractic punching technique, mid air blood transfusion.
All this stuff just stuck out more than most of the stuff from the past two films and while it didn't really bother me I can see how that can be sort of glaring for the standard that had been set with the previous films. Not that they weren't lacking in farfetched comic booky elements either but TDKR's just stood out more.
I'm actually okay with all of those except for the Blake knowing Bruce's identity based on the feeling in his bones. Not only because that is unrealistic, but because I felt it was pretty bad writing. But I think I've gone over that many many times now by this point.
My view on the Blake plot point:
-He needed to know Batman's identity one way or another, it's the whole premise and starting point of the character. The jolt we get when he calls Bruce out on being Batman is an important part of that scene, because that's the jolt Bruce is feeling and it feeds directly into his/our journey back to the cowl.
-If he gave a logical explanation for how he deduced it, it would only serve as a long-winded passage of exposition. Having it play as an emotional beat gives us an instant "in" with the character and highlights the parallel between Blake and Bruce.
-It is actually counterintuitive to assume that Blake spent the last 8 years with this hunch and didn't consider how the facts indeed seem to support it (Batman likely being an insanely wealthy Gothamite, Batman's first appearance occurring shortly after Bruce returned to Gotham after 7 years mysteriously gone, etc.) If you couple those things with a strong gut feeling, it's not incredibly hard to figure out. It's Bruce's playboy ruse that keeps everyone from even going there.
-Contrary to what has been said, it does not make Gordon look dumb for not figuring it out for himself. Gordon didn't care who he was, didn't want to know. This is pretty consistent with the portrayal of Gordon in the comics.
Ironically, I would probably dislike the moment a lot more if it wasn't revealed that Blake= Robin/Bruce's successor. The fact that he was Nolan's Robin meant that the scene in Wayne Manor wasn't just some young cop having a sappy moment with Bruce...it was Batman and Robin having their classic "we're the same" conversation.
The only silly thing about Blake knowing Bruce is Batman is that he's the only person to figure it out.
If Batman comics were realistic, any person with half a brain would be able to figure out Bruce is Batman, or at least Bruce is strongly associated with him.
Blake knowing isn't a flaw. Other people not knowing is the flaw, one which is present in virtually all Batman stories and mediums.
It's like complaining Blake is smart enough to figure out what is plainly obvious. All these superheroes are founded on nearly illogical, silly premises that allow their identities to remain anonymous.
Nolan did no wrong here. I applaud him for having Blake outright say he knows, call Bruce out on giving up the cowl, and provide emotional insight into Blake's character. It was a great scene. And the funny thing is, while I can't by any means prove this, it's a scene I played out in my head and predicted almost down to a T a couple months before the movie came out. I just knew that Blake would visit Wayne Manor and try to convince Bruce to return.
It shocked me when I first saw it, because I thought they'd lead into the "saw you at my orphanage with a pretty girl on your arm" part of the story with "Batman was there the night my father died, I saw his eyes" kind of thing. Think the image from Identity Crisis #5 or #6, where Drakes father is murdered and Batman holds him in his arms with he captions reading "Batman and Robin. Orphans."
I've always loved that scene from the comics and wanted it included in a movie, so was disappointed when it was 'so close, yet so far'. I also think it would've alleviated a lot of people's problems with the scene.
After the first time, though... It doesn't bother me. They followed through with Blake operating on instinct and recognizing patterns enough throughout the rest of the movie that it didn't seem totally out of place. Not to mention, Blake may not have unequivocally KNOWN Bruce was Batman. Maybe he had his gut feeling for years, did a background check when he became a cop, some things lined up... and when the time came, he just took his shot. Maybe it was Bruce not denying it that finally sold him on his own theory.
Exactly. The scene basically amounted to Blake saying, "Hey, I think you're Batman. Tell me I'm wrong."
And Bruce didn't.
Most of these things, I just loved about TDKR. I was perfectly fine with Blake knowing that Bruce and Batman are the same because they are of kindred spirits having gone through something such as watching their loved ones gunned down. In a almost poetic world that Nolan gave us with Batman, it makes sense for people to have so much in common and for someone's identity of a superhero being revealed so easily by someone else who has encountered the same kind of brutality of watching someone they love being shot.
Rather thinking TDKR is more "comic-booky", I take the film as just a natural progression because of the fact that we had to see another vehicle and one that would obviously feel unreal at times, but for the most part, The Bat felt like it was real and fit with the "family" of the Tumbler and Bat-pod in its physics. The leg brace, rather seemed out there, made just as much sense as the pneumatic manglers seen in the beginning of TDK that worked with the body's mechanics. While the more fantasy elements involved the Pit(such as Bruce being this "new" person climbing out of the Pit and his leg seemingly fine), I do adore the idea of Nolan still giving the Pit some fantasy elements, such as even Bruce's vision of Ra's al Ghul down there. And the idea of popping Bruce's vertebrae back in just felt like old Eastern medicine and I can look past this. Breaking Bruce and seeing him rise up is what was important, not so much on how his back is just fixed in the film.
The part about the cops being led to almost near death is something bogus, but Gordon has just learned Batman is gone again; this was Gordon trying to do everything he could to take down this threat without someone in a cape and cowl helping him.
Edit: Forgot about the mid-air blood transfusion. Something else, again, I didn't mind. They needed to show something of how they were going to make it seem like Dr. Pavel died in the plane crash and we couldn't see them fixing the dead body's dental records or sandpapering his fingerprints off, lol.
I loved the use of Ra's ghost to show Bruce's self-doubt. The biggest hurdle for me, in terms of the film feeling real, was the military's response to Bane's nuke. At first, anyway. I guess the more I think about it, the more it makes a bit of sense given that something like that has never happened.
It's definitely up there as one of the stupidest. I've no problem with Batman's identity being discovered, if it's done in a somewhat credible way, like how Mr. Reese did it. But knowing Wayne is Batman simply from a look on his face is one of the dumbest things I've ever heard of.
Yeah, he could even have learned it from Mr. Reese.
Maybe during Batman's absence, Mr. Reese publicly tried to sell information of Batman's identity but pro-Batman activists killed him. Blake was on the scene and was the only one who heard Mr. Reese's last words.
I'd rather Batman himself tell him down the line, like he told Gordon, after seeing that this kid got "it".
How could Bruce have told him? They didn't meet. Blake first goes to Bruce because he needs Batman to come back early in the movie.
The second that Blake started his little speech, I just knew it would turn out bad. That look he was giving Bruce, I could just see it in his face. I mean, JGL might not know it, but I've seen bad speeches before. It's just one of those lines in a movie that, you know, deep down you can tell how horrible its going to turn out. I could feel it in my bones and stuff....
Of course their introduction would have to be rearranged.
Everything Wrong With The Dark Knight Rises in 3 Minutes or Less:
Just dropping by to say how much I love this movie.
What are the top 5 high points of TDKR & so called ''low points'' of the film? I say it like that because not everyone has them.
I can't imagine there was many pro-Batman activists after they were told Batman killed all those people including Harvey Dent.
Anyway I'd say Reese left Gotham A.S.A.P. after Joker made half the city try and kill him for even trying to spill Batman's secret in the first place. Though it makes you wonder why the authorities didn't squeeze him for that info after Batman became a fugitive.
Nipple bed has to be the funniest one lol.
Remember the scene when Bruce and Fox go back to the bunker to retrieve his Batsuit and other gadgets? I always wonder if the shot of the Batsuit rising up is freshly shot for Rises or if Nolan reused a shot from TDK. It's silly I know. Why wouldn't Nolan shoot that scene anew if he was using the set again in the first place? It's not like it would be expensive to film that single shot enough to strain the budget or anything. And yet, I dunno, it's the specific color temperature of the shot that recalls TDK to me.
It only takes 1, and I'm sure a figure like Batman would have a loyal base. Reese wouldn't leave just like all the people in Gotham despite its crimes.
Anyway the point was they could have used Reese to explain how Blake knows Batman's identity. You wonder why authorities didn't squeeze it out of Reese? Maybe John Blake did. I'm not saying how it should be rewritten. I'm saying it could have been written better. You can change the details however you like.
At that point, you would be re-writing the movie. It's possible to only change the dialogue of his explanation and leave everything else intact.
Highs (besides everything):
-First Batman vs Bane fight
-Bruce escaping the Pit
Lows (Only two for me):
-Blake's explanation for knowing who Batman is
-Talia's death scene