The Dark Knight Rises The TDKR General Discussion Thread - - - - - - - - - - - Part 143

[Kane52630]

Why do I show up every time someone mentions B&R?

 

[The Guard]

As I recall, the flak about Batman and Ra’s in BATMAN BEGINS was down to what Batman had done and whether it was murder. There wasn’t much flak over the line themselves there.

So basically you want something similar to Clooney's Batman speech to Bane at the end of B&R?

No, where do you get that from? I want Batman to come up with his own things to say, not use a less meaningful version of someone else’s dialogue.

"Then...you have my permission to die" was a fitting reprise of a powerful line.

Not really, because the subtext and meaning of the line is pretty weak compared to what it contained when Bane used it on Bruce.

When Bane used the line on Bruce, he had literally physically broken him. He was going to torture and destroy a city. He was going to torture Bruce Wayne’s mind.
Whereas when Batman uses the line, he’s beat the crap out of him, ok, but that doesn’t really compare. The line means what it means. “I beat you”. It doesn’t have any deeper meaning really, because Batman doesn’t intend to torture Bane or his city or any of that.

It’s just Batman repeating what Bane said to him earlier. It doesn’t really mean anything other than “Ha, I beat you, and when you give me what I want, you have my permission to die”.

Meh. Boring. Mildly confusing and annoying, since Batman’s supposedly not an executioner.

It's similar to "mind your surroundings" from BB, and one-line reprisals are something of movie cliche.

That wasn’t great dialogue, either. It was about as cliché as it gets, and he sounds like Tom Cruise with a cold when he says it.

Him getting back at Bane with that line wasn't about him actually wanting to kill him. It wasn't to be taken literally.

Then why say it?

Yeah, it was just Batman's clever way of saying "I've beaten you, I know you're in excruciating pain right now, but you're not off the hook until you tell me what I want to know." And throwing back Bane's cruel words in his face.

But it wasn’t clever. He used someone else’s words.

Being clever involves thinking for yourself.

Did you hate Batman's "You've never learned to mind your surroundings..." reversal on Ra's Al Ghul as well before he lets Ra's crumble to his death as well?

Hate? No. It’s the kind of thing Batman says all the time in the comics. I think it’s cheesy and cliché in an “almost every martial arts movie does this” sort of way, but there’s actual meaning to that line, too. It actually has a purpose, in terms of how it makes the scene flow, and its intention (misdirection, distraction).

It's not lazy, it's just a different goal than you might have in mind. It's playing with audience expectation, and maybe you didn't like it, but my audience sure as hell loved it. It's also important from a character perspective because he's finally got the upper hand on Bane and, mirroring Bane and Talia's original plan to watch him fail, he's doing the same, telling Bane he's going to make him watch his own plan fail.

Bane and Talia’s plan was to torture him and his city. That’s what “When Gotham is in ashes, then you have my permission to die” means. Not “We’re going to defeat you.” What they were doing to him went well beyond "defeat".

I don’t see how Batman repeating Bane’s lines in an action movie cliché/staple is “playing with audience expectation”. It’s the most expected trope in an action movie for a hero to repeat something a villain said to them earlier in the film, or to say some variation of “I’m going to kill you” during a final confrontation.

I don’t dislike it beyond the fact that it just isn’t that interesting, and kind of sends the wrong message about a Batman who supposedly doesn’t execute people. I just don’t think it’s anything particularly clever.

And the whole argument was that the call and response dialogue in this film is lazy compared to the previous two films, in which call and response dialogue generally had more meaning and better insertion into the films. Not just that this particular line is lazy as a piece of writing.

To be honest, in general, I think “call and response” dialogue IS some of the laziest writing that can be done, whether it has deeper meaning or not. I don't know why anyone would consider it truly clever. It’s just so cliché and "formulaic" an approach to handling character interaction/resolutions.

 

[Anno_Domini]

Why would there not be flack for Batman re-using Ra's al Ghul's line but there is with Batman re-using Bane's line?

 

[BatLobster]

But it wasn’t clever. He used someone else’s words.

Being clever involves thinking for yourself.

Okay, maybe not CLEVER per se...but I mean, Bane had said that to him 5 months ago, so it's just Bruce's cute little way of saying the tables have turned. It's a one liner. People are either going to enjoy it for what it is or not. I did, cause I thought it was badass and cathartic. You didn't, that's fine.

One day we'll agree on something regarding this movie, Guard, one day. I've agreed with plenty of your opinions on other superhero films so there's still hope, lol.

 

[georgec]

Epic quote walls.

 

[batbax]

Epic quote walls.

Lol I know right? If I spent that much energy discussing "subtext" and "call and response" for a line in a movie trying to discredit said line with such apparent mental *********ion I'd seriously have to reconsider and re evaluate a lot of things.

 

[MagnarTheGreat]

On Leno, kid Talia (Joey King) is talking about TDKR. They showed her picture with the shaved head from the movie and talked briefly about some stuff. Talking about how Nolan wanted her hair "shorter shorter shorter".

 

[ChrisB]

Hey guys! I just wanted to let you know in about 24 hours from now I'm launching a MAJOR redesign of Batman News. Some sites are OK with looking the same after 15 years but that's not me. I love technology and this new design will make it one of the most advanced sites online. I hope you all love it as much as I do!

 

[Anno_Domini]

So...do I lose my "Nolanite" fan card if I've slowly become more of a fan of the Batman: The Dark Knight Returns duology more than The Dark Knight Trilogy? I've watched the films two days in a row...I just can't stop watching these masterpieces! I'm so thankful I have these great films of both animated and live-action that I really love, but those two DKR films...man, they're so freaking spectacular.

Edit: The "Nolanite" fan card thing was a joke by the way as I would never call myself a Nolanite, lol.

On Leno, kid Talia (Joey King) is talking about TDKR. They showed her picture with the shaved head from the movie and talked briefly about some stuff. Talking about how Nolan wanted her hair "shorter shorter shorter".

I could just imagine Chris right behind her and the person cutting her hair as he screams "I want it shorter! Shorter goddammit!"

 

[Travesty]

Heh, I think initially putting it in parenthesis solidified that you weren't serious about it.

 

[Anno_Domini]

Disclaimers are very much necessary in a forum where everything is taken literal 24/7.

 

[georgec]

Whatever, you Nolanite...

 

[BatLobster]

TDK Returns is indeed epic and awesome. 2012 was one hell of a year for ol' Bats.

Also, I really love how with Year One and Dark Knight Returns, Frank Miller was able to tackle Batman's origins and final mission as sort of one-off stories with the vague continuity of the rest of the comics falling in the middle. Fast forward to the Nolan trilogy and we have a film series with a first movie that takes a lot of cues from Year One and a final movie that takes a lot of cues from The Dark Knight Returns. Just fantastic, and it makes perfect sense in the "Grant Morrison" sorta way of looking at the history of comics as a biography of Bruce Wayne's life.

Oh and I just watched The Dark Knight with the Modern Myth Media commentary podcast. Highly recommended, they did one for Begins as well which was also great and I look forward to their Rises one. Those are a great bunch of Bat-fans right there. And damn, TDK- still amazing even without sound.

 

[J.Howlett]

TDK Returns is indeed epic and awesome. 2012 was one hell of a year for ol' Bats.

Also, I really love how with Year One and Dark Knight Returns, Frank Miller was able to tackle Batman's origins and final mission as sort of one-off stories with the vague continuity of the rest of the comics falling in the middle. Fast forward to the Nolan trilogy and we have a film series with a first movie that takes a lot of cues from Year One and a final movie that takes a lot of cues from The Dark Knight Returns. Just fantastic, and it makes perfect sense in the "Grant Morrison" sorta way of looking at the history of comics as a biography of Bruce Wayne's life.

Completely agree. Thinking of doing a marathon of the Nolan's Trilogy and then Year One and the Dark Knight Returns on weekend, just to see how it would play.

 

[Dragon_316ca]

http://www.empireonline.com/awards2013/

Vote for TDKR in the following category:

Best Actress
Best Director
Best Film

 

[Anno_Domini]

^ I voted for...

Tom Holland (The Impossible) - Male Newcomer
Samantha Barks (Les Misérables) - Female Newcomer
Ted - Best Comedy
The Cabin in the Woods - Best Horror
Argo - Best Thriller
Looper - Best Sci-fi/Fantasy
Life of Pi - Art of 3D(such a dumb category, lol)
Daniel Day-Lewis (Lincoln) - Best Actor
Anne Hathaway (The Dark Knight Rises) - Best Actress
Christopher Nolan (The Dark Knight Rises) - Best Director
Skyfall - Best British Film
The Dark Knight Rises - Best Film

Whatever, you Nolanite...

TDK Returns is indeed epic and awesome. 2012 was one hell of a year for ol' Bats.

Also, I really love how with Year One and Dark Knight Returns, Frank Miller was able to tackle Batman's origins and final mission as sort of one-off stories with the vague continuity of the rest of the comics falling in the middle. Fast forward to the Nolan trilogy and we have a film series with a first movie that takes a lot of cues from Year One and a final movie that takes a lot of cues from The Dark Knight Returns. Just fantastic, and it makes perfect sense in the "Grant Morrison" sorta way of looking at the history of comics as a biography of Bruce Wayne's life.

If only Batman: Year One ended up being a good animated film, lol.

But, yah...The Dark Knight Returns Parts 1 & 2, Batman Begins, The Dark Knight, The Dark Knight Rises....it's been such a great few years with Batman, and you could also include Under the Red Hood, the Arkham games...man, it will be sad when the quality with Batman media goes down.

 

[ChrisB]

Here's Joey King from The Tonight Show last night, talking about having to shave her head for Talia. She said she was pretty excited about it, and Nolan kept coming into the room saying "shorter!" lol

http://batman-news.com/2013/03/01/joey-king-on-shaving-her-head-for-the-dark-knight-rises-video/

 

[the last son]

About the dark knight returns I don't care what anyone says but batman was fat in that movie. Kind of distracting actually. He was not all muscle as some keep saying he looked like a balloon. Also, when is that score being released.

 

[JackWhite]

So empire has freakin' RDJ for best actor and no Bale, yet Anne gets a best actress nod?

***Flips table***

 

[Anno_Domini]

About the dark knight returns I don't care what anyone says but batman was fat in that movie. Kind of distracting actually. He was not all muscle as some keep saying he looked like a balloon. Also, when is that score being released.

Spoiler

Batman's supposed to look like that in TDKR, but I wouldn't call it "fat" necessarily.

So empire has freakin' RDJ for best actor and no Bale, yet Anne gets a best actress nod?

***Flips table***

Yah, it's kinda bogus. Wasn't he nominated as Best Actor for BB and TDK for Empire?

 

[JackWhite]

Spoiler

Batman's supposed to look like that in TDKR, but I wouldn't call it "fat" necessarily.



Yah, it's kinda bogus. Wasn't he nominated as Best Actor for BB and TDK for Empire?

Yep. He won for TDK, but was only nominated for BB.

Empire Awards, UK


2009

Won Empire Award
category Best Actor for The Dark Knight (2008)


2006

Got nomination for Empire Award
category Best Actor for Batman Begins (2005)


http://www.aceshowbiz.com/celebrity/christian_bale/awards.html

 

[georgec]

Just wanted to say I fricking love this movie.

The french horn blaring when Batman and Bane approach each other in the battle gives me chills every time. Just pure energy and emotion. The entire last 30 minutes are so damn good. So epic.

I wish I could experience this film for the first time again. I sat there stunned during the credits. I took a long walk after leaving the theater. Just totally delivered for me on every level. I think about this movie daily.

I sound like a crazy person, probably. I don't care. TDKR is beautiful.

 

[ChrisB]

Say hello to Batman News 2.0!
http://batman-news.com/2013/03/02/holy-redesign-batman-welcome-to-batman-news-2-0/

Would love to know what you guys think in the comments section of that post. It's hard to believe Batman News was born right here in the SHH forums just 2 1/2 years ago. I'm really pushing it forward with this new design!

 

[AnneFan]

http://www.empireonline.com/awards2013/

Vote for TDKR in the following category:

Best Actress
Best Director
Best Film

Thanks for the link - I just voted in there.

And ChrisB, the re-desdign looks fabulous.

 

[Snow Queen]

So...do I lose my "Nolanite" fan card if I've slowly become more of a fan of the Batman: The Dark Knight Returns duology more than The Dark Knight Trilogy? I've watched the films two days in a row...I just can't stop watching these masterpieces! I'm so thankful I have these great films of both animated and live-action that I really love, but those two DKR films...man, they're so freaking spectacular.

I'd rank them above Begins but below TDK and TDKR. Both are fantastic though, especially Part 2.