The Dark Knight Rises The TDKR General Discussion Thread - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 144

[Schrute]

A Batman who only cares about organized crime and allows other crime to happen in Gotham seems like the laziest Batman ever created

 

[milost]

Maybe this, maybe that.


All I know is, the movie starts out 8 years after Dark Knight (supposedly) and everything is convoluted as far as story is concerned and I don't like it. It's not just the knee, it's everything.

- Harvey Dent Days (just as bad as Spider-Man celebration days)

- Harvey Dent Act (convenient)

- Clean streets, no need for Batman

- No freaks, absolutely nothing in terms of what was discussed before

- 8 years of no Batman

- destroyed knee (then magical knee brace to not only make it all better, but to also kick through bricks but not the main villain)

- Batman is never "hunted" and he certainly never "takes it"

- Sometime during the course of pre-TDKR's time line, Bruce Wayne visited an orphanage (we NEVER see him do this in Begins and TDK, wouldn't that go against the Playboy lifestyle by showing that he cares???) and an orphan saw him and could tell he was Batman by his eyes and feel the anger in his bones

- Bruce Wayne developed a "clean energy" project Tony Stark style but it backfired

- He does nothing, absolutely nothing for years. He's not Bruce Wayne or Batman. He limps on a cane around Gotham practicing . . . archery?


Keaton Batman was a brooding hermit that wallowed in his pain, but atleast he put it to good use. He was out there fighting, he was DOING things.





That's a LOT to take in, especially when you see Batman at the HEIGHT of his career in The Dark Knight. It's definitely not nitpicking. The people that have problems with went down have justified it in my opinion, 10 fold. Simply not liking something, even if it's backed up with MORE contrivances/convolutions and unseen passages of time doesn't make it good for us.



Time, that sums it up really. All of this crazy stuff happens when we're thrust into the story and it's just not believable and takes fans out, especially those that followed Begins and The Dark Knight from the get go.

 

[ThePhantasm]

The HISHE video raises great points. The Bane / Bats fight was an awesome brawl, but where was Bats' equipment? All he had was flashbangs and the electromagnetic device?

What happened to his grapple gun? We could have seen Bane grab the line and pull Bat's down.

What happened to the sleeping darts? We could have seen Bane get hit by a few and turn down the gas in his mask for a few moments so the pain would keep him awake.

A lot of the plot feels artificially shoehorned together rather than having a natural flow to it. Much of this is because the film was clearly pressed for time. It should have been split into two movies.

 

[milost]

That's been brought up and, yeah, I agree. It's sort of a shame.


Instead of those other gadgets, we see him use these pointless smoke pellet things that are completely useless. I know it's another forced tie back to Batman Begins with Ra's Al Ghul training Bruce, but Batman never even used those in his arsenal before. That's what he brings to the fight?


It shouldn't matter if they're "initiated" or not. This is the hero that has every possible gadget for every possible situation.



Now, I know the point of the scene is to show Batman in defeat after years of retirement, I totally get that. But the way it happens and is conveyed is just obnoxious. Bane is exactly like a video game boss that can't be beaten until you "level up" before you face him. So useless smoke pellet effect clouds don't work, okay. But then he shuts off all the lights and Bane somehow just senses him? Bane can't smell (can he?), he can't see.

 

[Isearch4dope]

The HISHE video raises great points. The Bane / Bats fight was an awesome brawl, but where was Bats' equipment? All he had was flashbangs and the electromagnetic device?

What happened to his grapple gun? We could have seen Bane grab the line and pull Bat's down.

What happened to the sleeping darts? We could have seen Bane get hit by a few and turn down the gas in his mask for a few moments so the pain would keep him awake.

A lot of the plot feels artificially shoehorned together rather than having a natural flow to it. Much of this is because the film was clearly pressed for time. It should have been split into two movies.

Yea you get it....you know the extra mile. Those little details that can elevate something from being just okay to yea the fire rises indeed. Bane taking on a weakened Bats (prime weakened) worked in the comics to show just how cold and calculated he was but in the context of this film (bats out of the game lacking personal conflict) isn't nowhere as impressive. It's like you are promised a whole lot and all you get is a face value product lacking grit throughout It's like promising someone a slice of papa john's and giving them a piece of liver to eat t:

 

[Marvolo]

I understand deep depression. I also understand I have no interest in watching Nolan and Bale attempt to portray It in one of my favorite characters who I come to watch for escapism and awesomeness. I watched Bruce's pain in BB and TDK and understood his loss. I didn't need howard hughes bruce in TDKR and him being crippled to get the point across. I came to see Batman and a grizzled Bruce weary from fighting and being dogged by those he helps. I like a haunted bruce wayne, but what we got was a broken shade version of the man in a nuclear bomb plot. If Nolan wanted a truly mentally and physically broken Wayne pairinh him with a cerebral plot and villain may have worked better. Something deep and less bombastic.

It bothers me even more knowing that my chances of getting a deep thought provoking psychological batman movie probably went out the window when Nolan left the franchise.

 

[BlueLightning]

What if Bruce Wayne lost all reason to be Batman? Hence, TDKR...

You summed it up in a way that it makes me appreciate even more the story that was told. It really is something so radical and yet so simple from an storytelling perspective. You could completely get and embrace, or not.

Since we are talking about our little story-plans, I was a huge advocate of the Riddler. I was on the group that thought that it would be neat for him to be some sort of FBI agent that went to Gotham to investigate the Dent affair, and that he cracked it up and was threatening to tell the people the truth. And in some way, some parts of that arrived on Rises.

I think TDKT is a great interpretation of the Batman mythos as a whole. We get the "Year One" genre of stories, with Begins. We get the "episodic" tales with TDK, and we get the "TDKReturns/Beyond" stories with Rises, sprinkled with a lot of familiar themes and tidbits. I'm really really thankful that Nolan was able to tell a complete story.

I'm kinda wanting to revisit the trilogy, I planned to see it back to back some time ago, but unfortunately I haven't.

 

[Marvolo]

The Riddler may have worked if he was from Internal Affairs investigating Dent's death but he has an alterior motive.

I still say the only logical follow up to TDK and its events and the Joker was Dr. Strange. It makes so much logical sense that it hurts my head trying to contimplate why Nolan didn't use him. Hell he could have still used Bane as Strange's henchman. Or just not had a secondary villain at all.

 

[ThePhantasm]

I understand deep depression. I also understand I have no interest in watching Nolan and Bale attempt to portray It in one of my favorite characters who I come to watch for escapism and awesomeness. I watched Bruce's pain in BB and TDK and understood his loss. I didn't need howard hughes bruce in TDKR and him being crippled to get the point across. I came to see Batman and a grizzled Bruce weary from fighting and being dogged by those he helps. I like a haunted bruce wayne, but what we got was a broken shade version of the man in a nuclear bomb plot.

I agree. In Knightfall Wayne was depressed and weary but still fighting against all odds. He fought to the very last, as Bane broke him in the batcave. In TDKR Wayne has given up even before Bane arrived.

I had always hoped we'd see the young Bruce of BB mature into an older grizzled Batman. Instead, in TDKR he seemed just as gullible as in BB. He still seemed like he hadn't learned his lessons. After the Joker, you'd think you wouldn't underestimate villains again, but he goes into a fight with Bane with almost no preparation. It all feels very contrived rather than natural. Like Bruce has to be stupid / depressed / whatever in scene x so that the plot can advance. TDK at least had a natural flow to it.

 

[Marvolo]

I agree. In Knightfall Wayne was depressed and weary but still fighting against all odds. He fought to the very last, as Bane broke him in the batcave. In TDKR Wayne has given up even before Bane arrived.

I had always hoped we'd see the young Bruce of BB mature into an older grizzled Batman. Instead, in TDKR he seemed just as gullible as in BB. He still seemed like he hadn't learned his lessons. After the Joker, you'd think you wouldn't underestimate villains again, but he goes into a fight with Bane with almost no preparation. It all feels very contrived rather than natural. Like Bruce has to be stupid / depressed / whatever in scene x so that the plot can advance. TDK at least had a natural flow to it.

Actually Alfred spells it out, Bruce was tired and exhausted and was in a ****ed up way wanting Bane to kill him. Its some dark ****, but Bruce was grabbing the bull by the horns and didn't really care whether he survived the confrontation. Alfred saw this and it is why he was doing everything he could to talk him out of it.

The problem with it tho, is Batman looks pathetic in that fight. And doesn't even put up a very good fight in the end which isn't good for a finale when you want to see this character rise up and stomp a mudhole in Bane's ass.

 

[ThePhantasm]

The problem with it tho, is Batman looks pathetic in that fight. And doesn't even put up a very good fight in the end which isn't good for a finale when you want to see this character rise up and stomp a mudhole in Bane's ass.

Even his victory over Bane gets robbed of its effect by the Talia twist and Bats blubbering about it while getting tied up. At least in Begins he didn't have some emotional breakdown over Ducard being Ra's. I guess because they didn't have a one night stand.

 

[Tacit Ronin]

It bothers me even more knowing that my chances of getting a deep thought provoking psychological batman movie probably went out the window when Nolan left the franchise.

Why is that?

 

[Travesty]

Even his victory over Bane gets robbed of its effect by the Talia twist and Bats blubbering about it while getting tied up. At least in Begins he didn't have some emotional breakdown over Ducard being Ra's. I guess because they didn't have a one night stand.

Or because Ra's didn't stab him in the side with a knife.

 

[shauner111]

Even his victory over Bane gets robbed of its effect by the Talia twist and Bats blubbering about it while getting tied up. At least in Begins he didn't have some emotional breakdown over Ducard being Ra's. I guess because they didn't have a one night stand.

LOL he wasn't having an emotional breakdown, he was in pain from getting stabbed in the side.

 

[ThePhantasm]

Or because Ra's didn't stab him in the side with a knife.

LOL he wasn't having an emotional breakdown, he was in pain from getting stabbed in the side.

Didn't one of Ra's goons cut him in the side with a sword? I thought the knife stabbing was a parallel with Batman Begins, not a contrast.

 

[Marvolo]

Why is that?

Do you really think we are going to get that in Justice League? I don't, and that is where Batman is supposed to be rebooted. DC will be looking to go in a different direction from Nolan's films, and this new batman will probably be more light or at the very least a more summer blockbuster style. So I have to wait for that film then wait for that rebooted version of Batman to finish then wait for another reboot. Ill **** rainbows if I'm wrong but Batman having a deep psychological plot in the next decade left the building with Nolan.

I just want more quality Batman movies. I don't need aquaman and flash and the rest teaming up with him. Its great for the JL fans, and I want fault them for being excited, but JL is not where I want to see my favorite comic book character. Its the opposite of what I love about the character.

 

[ThePhantasm]

You should follow my policy, Marvolo - don't believe any JL rumors or even statements from WB until they are actually filming the movie.

Seriously, following all this JL "news" will make you pull your hair out. Nothing is official.

 

[Marvolo]

You should follow my policy, Marvolo - don't believe any JL rumors or even statements from WB until they are actually filming the movie.

Seriously, following all this JL "news" will make you pull your hair out. Nothing is official.

Believe me I'm trying to follow this policy. I'm keeping up hope this JL idea never comes to fruition at all, but I know that isn't fair to JL fans so if it must happen it just better be great.

 

[Travesty]

Didn't one of Ra's goons cut him in the side with a sword? I thought the knife stabbing was a parallel with Batman Begins, not a contrast.

I'm pretty sure he tried to get him with a sword, but he blocked it.

 

[ThePhantasm]

I'm pretty sure he tried to get him with a sword, but he blocked it.

Maybe I need to rewatch that scene. I thought Alfred was inspecting the wound in the elevator.

 

[georgec]

The HISHE video raises great points. The Bane / Bats fight was an awesome brawl, but where was Bats' equipment? All he had was flashbangs and the electromagnetic device?

What happened to his grapple gun? We could have seen Bane grab the line and pull Bat's down.

What happened to the sleeping darts? We could have seen Bane get hit by a few and turn down the gas in his mask for a few moments so the pain would keep him awake.

A lot of the plot feels artificially shoehorned together rather than having a natural flow to it. Much of this is because the film was clearly pressed for time. It should have been split into two movies.

The instant Batman tried to use any of his more advanced equipment against Bane, he would have been at the mercy of the 20-30 LoS members who were watching in disciplined silence while holding automatic weapons.

 

[Tacit Ronin]

Do you really think we are going to get that in Justice League? I don't, and that is where Batman is supposed to be rebooted. DC will be looking to go in a different direction from Nolan's films, and this new batman will probably be more light or at the very least a more summer blockbuster style. So I have to wait for that film then wait for that rebooted version of Batman to finish then wait for another reboot. Ill **** rainbows if I'm wrong but Batman having a deep psychological plot in the next decade left the building with Nolan.

The next Batman series might not be grounded like Nolan's but it might still be serious and dark and also fantastical). Batman the Animated series had some brilliant introverted episodes without sacrificing its fantastical overtones. It can be done. Man of Steel seems to be like that: serious but outlandish in the same breath. I am thinking WB will want to hew close to that tone based on the fact that MOS will be the tonal template for the Justice League founders moving forward.

 

[ThePhantasm]

The instant Batman tried to use any of his more advanced equipment against Bane, he would have been at the mercy of the 20-30 LoS members who were watching in disciplined silence while holding automatic weapons.

But those LoS guys are okay with him using his electromagnetic thingie to shut off the lights and throwing flashbangs at Bane's face?

Maybe if Bane had said "let's fight man to man, no weapons, no tricks. My men are watching," that would be one thing. Instead we see Bats selectively use his arsenal when we know he has other stuff available that could help him.

 

[Snow Queen]

Once again who the **** wants to see Bruce as a cripple? Lol I just don't get the fascination Nolan had with this.

A) I quite like it.

B) I take it you don't like The Dark Knight Returns having a crippled Bruce Wayne who slaps on some mechanical bits to his arms and knees and is as good as new?

 

[ThePhantasm]

I like the idea of Bruce being crippled / injured and having to overcome that. I don't like the film's execution of the idea.