The TDKR General Discussion Thread - - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 145

Discussion in 'The Dark Knight Rises' started by Thread Manager, May 13, 2013.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. BatLobsterRises

    BatLobsterRises Lobsterized

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2012
    Messages:
    11,690
    Likes Received:
    0
    Yeah, and I guess the people who don't like the film will forever think we just lop up whatever we're served, right?
     
    #76
  2. Kane52630

    Kane52630 Just Some Nut

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2009
    Messages:
    94,048
    Likes Received:
    221
    I remember saying right before shooting starts on TDKR that it'll probably be nothing like TDK and I knew people would walk in on opening night expecting a TDK 2.0

    BB was drastically different than TDK and so was with TDKR, also each film has it's flaws whether you brush it off or not. I'm on the camp where my only complaint about TDKR was the length, it needed either to be longer to drag out certain scenes or cut out of the film completely (and even with that it's hard to do). Otherwise, I didn't see anything I didn't like, it's still a Batman film the end and for me it did a pretty good job ending Nolan's run on the franchise.
     
    #77
  3. Tequilla

    Tequilla Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 7, 2010
    Messages:
    1,813
    Likes Received:
    0
    Or...its just that some people actually found the latter milk to be even better. Imagine that :wow:
     
    #78
  4. The Shape

    The Shape In the shadows

    Joined:
    May 30, 2006
    Messages:
    18,813
    Likes Received:
    16
    Thankfully, the MoS marketing seems to have held a lot back from the trailers and its production wasn't as public ask TDKR's. In terms of action, we've only seen the tip of the iceberg in the trailers, which is pretty exciting!
     
    #79
  5. Tacit Ronin

    Tacit Ronin Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2009
    Messages:
    20,533
    Likes Received:
    0
    The passage of time depicted after the stock exchange hit where it goes from noon to overcast to dusk to night is a mess. Compare that with Skyfall, when Bond arrives it is overcast, as Bond prepares for the siege on his mansion the light is beginning to fade, Sllva arrives at dusk, Silva raises the siege while the sky darkens degree by degree in each shot, until finally the mansion is blown to golden smolder against the now pitch black sky. The passage of day to night takes place over a period of fifteen minutes and everything is gradual and sensible. It really makes the editing of Rises look downright amateur in comparison.
     
    #80
  6. Isearch4dope

    Isearch4dope Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2013
    Messages:
    237
    Likes Received:
    0
    Pretty much yeah :woot: someday you'll back and say we were right....maybe even after
    [​IMG]

    Or I'll look back and say...it was OK.
     
    #81
  7. Tequilla

    Tequilla Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 7, 2010
    Messages:
    1,813
    Likes Received:
    0
    How long is that scene comparing to the moment after the stock exchange its and we know what time is ? A little different right ? More time , you have the ability to transition smoothly.

    And i dont thinks that's an editing problem. Thats a problem straight from the conception. The hours of a stock exchange and how they wanted to use a lot of black in that chase scene. In a bunch of minutes they cant transition any way that looks good. Either they choose to present the chase at night , or not. That's not being amateur. That's a simple decision.
     
    #82
  8. georgec

    georgec Not a hero

    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2011
    Messages:
    4,014
    Likes Received:
    0
    On a scale of pure spectacle TDK was absolutely a huge leap above BB. Don't misinterpret that as a criticism of BB. As great as BB was, TDK simply took everything to the next level. Watching TDK for the first time was a complete revelation.
     
    #83
  9. BatLobsterRises

    BatLobsterRises Lobsterized

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2012
    Messages:
    11,690
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trust me, I won't be changing my mind any time soon :cwink:

    I completely agree with Kane that the only real thing holding the movie back was the IMAX time constraints. I feel that it was absolutely the right story and it was executed just about as best as it possibly could have been within those constraints. The performances in the movie were top notch, the score was at its best, the cinematography was at its best, the action was at its best, the emotional stakes were the highest, the script was ripe with potent symbolism and stirring themes. There's no chance I'll ever see this movie as anything less than a worthy conclusion to a great trilogy.
     
    #84
  10. The Batman

    The Batman The Dark Knight

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2002
    Messages:
    23,649
    Likes Received:
    0
    :pal:
     
    #85
  11. The_Raganork

    The_Raganork Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2008
    Messages:
    13,085
    Likes Received:
    0
    Part of what irked me was how HARD it tried to be associated with BB and TDK as if we didn't know. I hated the flashbacks, I thought they were a lazy way to not have to go into explanation about BB. The only good one was the first one with Harvey, which seemed more like Gordon reliving a Nightmare rather than blatantly trying to remind us what happened.

    Still I did enjoy parts of it, particularly Tom Hardy and Anne Hathaway, I thought they were pretty awesome ad their respective characters.

    A big deal to me is that little changes in that film could have made it godly and I'm not sure how some of those were missed.

    I don't think anyone is spoiled actually. I understand loving TDKR to some degree and I don't fault anyone for it. It wasn't what /I/ wanted to see though and certainly not as good as it could have been even for what was presented to us the way it was.
     
    #86
  12. BatLobsterRises

    BatLobsterRises Lobsterized

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2012
    Messages:
    11,690
    Likes Received:
    0
    I would agree that some of those flashbacks were unnecessary.

    Although, did we really need to flashback to the stethoscope scene with Thomas Wayne in BB a second time, as if we didn't get it? The quick flashback has just always kind of been Nolan's style.
     
    #87
  13. The Batman

    The Batman The Dark Knight

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2002
    Messages:
    23,649
    Likes Received:
    0
    I didn't really like the close associations to BB/TDK either, and it makes TDKR feel like the film version of a clip show. I wish that, like TDK, TDKR could've been a sequel while firmly standing on its own feet. Most people can watch TDK without watching BB. I wish I could say the same for TDKR.

    There's just too many slight, yet glaring flaws that keep me from loving TDKR as much as I did BB/TDK. I can recognize that its a better made film than most comic book movies, but it could've truly been fantastic with some tweaks, IMO.
     
    #88
  14. Isearch4dope

    Isearch4dope Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2013
    Messages:
    237
    Likes Received:
    0
    Indeed we weren't expecting TDK 2.0 but something on the same level at least...not weaker. You see it all starts with picking the right challenge and scenarios to fulfil your story that won't instantly garner attention from viewers who could see judging from your past work that you know better.

    Pretty good job indeed in the ending itself yes but by no means in the execution. I swear if I would have only seen the ending before getting to see the entire movie I probably would have publicly declared that the movie will be the most epic of epics to ever hit cinemas.
     
    #89
  15. The_Raganork

    The_Raganork Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2008
    Messages:
    13,085
    Likes Received:
    0
    What a great example from Skyfall you pointed out here. You're 100% right. It just doesn't feel like time is moving at a normal or even a structured pace in TDKR.

    I will say this though, I was there at the Stock exchange shoot and it was raining like CRAZY that day, it was all sorts of terrible weather. Part of that could have affected the outcome.

    It's kind of an editing problem but more of a continuity problem. They shot the Stock Exchange in NYC during the Day but the chase in L.A. at night but either didn't think, or purposely didn't shoot during dusk. So essentially the scene goes from being 3 in the afternoon to about 11 pm within a matter of seconds.

    If they had only put a few shots of the sun going down it would have flowed a little better. The joke is that Batman goes into a tunnel during the day and comes out and it's night but the tunnel never seems to be very long and since we don't see him enter the tunnel it really affects how we assume what time it is prior.

    The shot before the tunnel is still daytime. Then inside the tunnel, then they leave and it's night.

    There's no sensible way to correct this using imagination, especially cause we know Gotham is only SO big. There's no way the sun could have completely started setting and have set that fast.

    One could say it jumps time but then how long was the chase all together? Hours? it certainly doesn't feel that long and if you think about it it seems a lot less fast paced if the chase lasted 2 hours.
     
    #90
  16. BatLobsterRises

    BatLobsterRises Lobsterized

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2012
    Messages:
    11,690
    Likes Received:
    0
    There IS a dusk shot right before we cut to Daggett's apartment though. It's nowhere near smooth, but not impossible to rationalize. Although they kinda do shoot themselves in the foot with the timer on the program.

    Still though, it's not all that different from when Rachel is driving with Bruce in the daytime, then makes a turn, ends up in the Narrows and it's night. All while continuous dialogue is happening. There's always a very symbolic relationship at play between day and night in any Batman film.

    Batman's return had to happen at night.
     
    #91
    Last edited: May 14, 2013
  17. The_Raganork

    The_Raganork Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2008
    Messages:
    13,085
    Likes Received:
    0

    The absolute worse one was the Gordon one. What a way to screw up that moment. It's written badly, shot badly, edited badly.

    Batman and Gordon have been a team since BB but in their last scene they almost play off as virtual strangers. Then to make it even less subtle they throw that flashback at us.

    That was the perfect time for Gordon to pull off a moment more akin to "We need to save Harvey Dent, I need to save Harvey Dent!". Something personal and responsive, not some half assed: "Bruce Wayne?"
     
    #92
  18. shauner111

    shauner111 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2011
    Messages:
    16,103
    Likes Received:
    1
    Fair enough. I don't see it that way though. I also had no problems with Gordon's stance in the story or Selina's. It needed to serve the story, not "we have to do some insane stuff for Gordon to do because he's Commissioner Gordon"...no, he had more to do in TDK because that's what that story called for. TDKR didn't call for it. We may disagree on that, and that's fine. Gordon in this movie still had more to do than the Burton/Shumacher movies, so hey..im not going to complain.

    I didn't really need the time jumps to be explained personally, but I will say that it would have been cool if the movie was longer and did go into the details. I get that criticism even though it didn't affect me.

    I would love to see a director's cut that put the film to about 3 hours. A good 20 minutes extra, of the 5 months of prison time + the reactions of the people in Gotham when it was under siege AND more violent actions taking place to the rich people, etc. Things that could only make it onto a Blu-ray release. Not counting some of Bane's origins. Simple things like showing him traveling across mountains, reading books and showing his intellect and of course a couple of shot of Bane training with Ra's. These are things that weren't necessary for me but it would be an incredible extra to have.

    Just 20/25 minutes of extra footage.

    But the rest of the complaints don't really sit well with me. I just don't see them like some of you do.
     
    #93
    Last edited: May 14, 2013
  19. BatLobsterRises

    BatLobsterRises Lobsterized

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2012
    Messages:
    11,690
    Likes Received:
    0
    Damn, you don't even like the "Even a man doing something as simple.." line? I absolutely adore that moment and the way Bale plays it. Everything else is secondary to me there. Flashback was unnecessary, I agree...but to be fair, we're just seeing Gordon's memory being triggered there, no different than the Two-Face flashback really.

    I think the slightly underwhelmed reaction was part of the point though. The rich spoiled brat? It shows how much more powerful Bruce is as a symbol than a man. It's like Gordon is struggling to believe it at first.
     
    #94
  20. Tequilla

    Tequilla Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 7, 2010
    Messages:
    1,813
    Likes Received:
    0
    No its not a continuity shot problem (off course the continuity is broken ) , or editing or anything in that sort of department. The moment Bane says its time to go mobile , it takes what ? 5 minute ? 7 minute ? There is no way they can pass 5 minutes from the moment a stock exchange works to night. Its simply impossible. Earth doesn't rotate that fast.

    If the scene had dusks transitioning, the whole chase would have to work like that and it wouldn't end at night. But the purpose of the scene is to see Batman again at its own environment. They choose to film the whole thing at night. After that you cant hide the blunder.

    The problem is in the conception of the scene. Stock exchange hours. 5 minutes for the file to upload. Night chase. You cant make this facts continuously , unless ...you don't.

    You cant transition smoothly a time lapse of 5 minutes like that.

    Comparing with a much bigger scene in Syfall is apples and oranges. You have so much more time to do time transitions.
     
    #95
  21. The_Raganork

    The_Raganork Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2008
    Messages:
    13,085
    Likes Received:
    0
    I don't see that as true because TDKR half asses stuff to do with Gordon.

    He has a triumphant moment where he saves himself in the hospital.

    Is the only one who will investigate Bane

    Runs a small rebellion against Bane during the siege

    Saves all of Gotham by stopping the Bomb the first time.

    It's clear they wanted to give Gordon something to do in this story and that he was important to the story but they do it superficially. Instead of him getting something meaningful to do he gets a few action scenes and a subplot that's ignored for most of the film.

    Think on how interesting it would have been to watch the rebellion battle Bane's Mercs. It's hinted at in some promotional material (i.e. 'Arrest on Sight' photo) and even in the film when Gordon says: "I have to get on Television" but Blake warns against it. The point was to have a hero in Gotham during the siege and that would be Gordon but the movie glances over it. To make matters worse it has that "triumphant" moment where the Special Forces agents comes into the kitchen and lo and behold it's Gordon whose there...but so what? We literally saw nothing of Gordon's actions during the time flips.

    There was so much potential but it's half presented. Much like the entire characters of Foley and Jen

    I didn't need them explained. I understood them it just wasn't good.

    While I agree more time could have helped, they could have trimmed down somethings and beefed up some others to make the film we got better in it's existing time.
     
    #96
  22. Isearch4dope

    Isearch4dope Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2013
    Messages:
    237
    Likes Received:
    0
    That hospital scene left me with an open mouth. I mean that was supposed to be a MOMENT right? It just flew by like ummm....it's nothing move along folks. The scene with him and Selina right after should have been cut down because Gordon and Bat's relationship had more weight.
     
    #97
  23. The_Raganork

    The_Raganork Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2008
    Messages:
    13,085
    Likes Received:
    0
    No...I don't agree.

    Once they're in the Stock Exchange time outside can pass in almost anyway. There's an indeterminate time between the first Gunshot and them leaving. They aren't doing anything timed until the latter half of being inside the stock exchange.

    So holding the captives COULD have taken hours. If they had shown a few shots of Foley outside waiting for whatever he was waiting for and it was becoming increasingly darker then the whole thing would have made more sense.

    So I call it a continuity problem. They shot one half during the day and the other half at night and didn't bother to think of the downtime in the middle.
     
    #98
  24. Tacit Ronin

    Tacit Ronin Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2009
    Messages:
    20,533
    Likes Received:
    0
    The flashback in the Wayne Manor scene was dumb. The scene places us as a layman to learn about what happened to the city within those eight years (via terrible exposition) and be reintroduced to old characters and meet the new. The scene then suddenly attempts to put us in the subjective turbulence of Gordon's mind out of nowhere. And then when it's done the scene switches back to objectivity again. It's poorly done and there is no concrete coherence to any of the shot choices. I was slightly turned off by the film by that point actually.
     
    #99
  25. shauner111

    shauner111 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2011
    Messages:
    16,103
    Likes Received:
    1
    The flashback was absolutely necessary. That moment is one of my favorite moments of the whole trilogy. The music, the flashback, is perfect. It reminds fans of what this entire partnership is all about and it's an emotional execution. Plus general audiences, believe it or not are a much larger part of this whole thing. Fanboys and people who remember every detail from Batman Begins, we're only a tiny part of what makes up the audience. That flashback was actually needed.

    It's also a memory of Gordon's in that moment. He's thinking of what Batman just said.

    And yes BatLobster, that was the whole point of "Bruce Wayne?" it's like "Huh?? that rich careless idiot?"
     
    #100
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page

monitoring_string = "afb8e5d7348ab9e99f73cba908f10802"