The Dark Knight Rises The TDKR General Discussion Thread - - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 145

[BatLobster]

So short and epic a response this is!!!! I guess the people who liked it and thought it was enough will forever think we are spoiled brats who want it our way but that's not the point at all. It's like giving a baby milk that's nutritious and fresh and one day you just decide to give that baby spoiled milk because you're not up to going to the store.

Yeah, and I guess the people who don't like the film will forever think we just lop up whatever we're served, right?

 

[Kane52630]

I remember saying right before shooting starts on TDKR that it'll probably be nothing like TDK and I knew people would walk in on opening night expecting a TDK 2.0

BB was drastically different than TDK and so was with TDKR, also each film has it's flaws whether you brush it off or not. I'm on the camp where my only complaint about TDKR was the length, it needed either to be longer to drag out certain scenes or cut out of the film completely (and even with that it's hard to do). Otherwise, I didn't see anything I didn't like, it's still a Batman film the end and for me it did a pretty good job ending Nolan's run on the franchise.

 

[Tequilla]

So short and epic a response this is!!!! I guess the people who liked it and thought it was enough will forever think we are spoiled brats who want it our way but that's not the point at all. It's like giving a baby milk that's nutritious and fresh and one day you just decide to give that baby spoiled milk because you're not up to going to the store.

Or...its just that some people actually found the latter milk to be even better. Imagine that

 

[The Shape]

Good to see you too!

Soon I'll be migrating to the MoS section. I'm trying to NOT do what I did with TDKR and spoil myself and I've been doing pretty well minus a few interesting tidbits!

Thankfully, the MoS marketing seems to have held a lot back from the trailers and its production wasn't as public ask TDKR's. In terms of action, we've only seen the tip of the iceberg in the trailers, which is pretty exciting!

 

[Tacit Ronin]

The passage of time depicted after the stock exchange hit where it goes from noon to overcast to dusk to night is a mess. Compare that with Skyfall, when Bond arrives it is overcast, as Bond prepares for the siege on his mansion the light is beginning to fade, Sllva arrives at dusk, Silva raises the siege while the sky darkens degree by degree in each shot, until finally the mansion is blown to golden smolder against the now pitch black sky. The passage of day to night takes place over a period of fifteen minutes and everything is gradual and sensible. It really makes the editing of Rises look downright amateur in comparison.

 

[Isearch4dope]

Yeah, and I guess the people who don't like the film will forever think we just lop up whatever we're served, right?

Pretty much yeah t: someday you'll back and say we were right....maybe even after

Or I'll look back and say...it was OK.

 

[Tequilla]

The passage of time depicted after the stock exchange hit where it goes from noon to overcast to dusk to night is a mess. Compare that with Skyfall, when Bond arrives it is overcast, as Bond prepares for the siege on his mansion the light is beginning to fade, Sllva arrives at dusk, Silva raises the siege while the sky darkens degree by degree in each shot, until finally the mansion is blown to golden smolder against the now pitch black sky. The passage of day to night takes place over a period of fifteen minutes and everything is gradual and sensible. It really makes the editing of Rises look downright amateur in comparison.

How long is that scene comparing to the moment after the stock exchange its and we know what time is ? A little different right ? More time , you have the ability to transition smoothly.

And i dont thinks that's an editing problem. Thats a problem straight from the conception. The hours of a stock exchange and how they wanted to use a lot of black in that chase scene. In a bunch of minutes they cant transition any way that looks good. Either they choose to present the chase at night , or not. That's not being amateur. That's a simple decision.

 

[georgec]

On a scale of pure spectacle TDK was absolutely a huge leap above BB. Don't misinterpret that as a criticism of BB. As great as BB was, TDK simply took everything to the next level. Watching TDK for the first time was a complete revelation.

 

[BatLobster]

Pretty much yeah t: someday you'll back and say we were right....maybe even after

Or I'll look back and say...it was OK.

Trust me, I won't be changing my mind any time soon

I completely agree with Kane that the only real thing holding the movie back was the IMAX time constraints. I feel that it was absolutely the right story and it was executed just about as best as it possibly could have been within those constraints. The performances in the movie were top notch, the score was at its best, the cinematography was at its best, the action was at its best, the emotional stakes were the highest, the script was ripe with potent symbolism and stirring themes. There's no chance I'll ever see this movie as anything less than a worthy conclusion to a great trilogy.

 

[The Batman]

I guess some people just didn't feel it in their bones and stuff?

 

[The_Raganork]

Breaks my heart a little that Rag didn't like the film, considering how much I loved his input during the buildup here. (I think I saw it at the same showing as you in Lincoln Center btw Rag). Especially considering the great posts you used to make about Bruce Wayne's journey, and how much the film really fulfilled all of that stuff.

Ah well. I certainly don't fault the third film in a series for leaning on elements of the first two films. It was meant to close off the trilogy. That's the decision they made from the get go. Even Jonah Nolan said that you like to think of each movie as stand alone but the truth is when it's a trilogy none of them really are. I think that's how they approached TDKR. "We're making a trilogy here, stuff that happened before matters and will tie in." No pretenses about making a fully stand alone film. If you go to see a third movie in a franchise, do the required viewing.

Personally, I dig that. One of my biggest pet peeves of the previous Batman franchise was next to 0 continuity between films. I liked that certain elements weren't off the table to be revisited.

Part of what irked me was how HARD it tried to be associated with BB and TDK as if we didn't know. I hated the flashbacks, I thought they were a lazy way to not have to go into explanation about BB. The only good one was the first one with Harvey, which seemed more like Gordon reliving a Nightmare rather than blatantly trying to remind us what happened.

Still I did enjoy parts of it, particularly Tom Hardy and Anne Hathaway, I thought they were pretty awesome ad their respective characters.

A big deal to me is that little changes in that film could have made it godly and I'm not sure how some of those were missed.

So short and epic a response this is!!!! I guess the people who liked it and thought it was enough will forever think we are spoiled brats who want it our way but that's not the point at all. It's like giving a baby milk that's nutritious and fresh and one day you just decide to give that baby spoiled milk because you're not up to going to the store.

I don't think anyone is spoiled actually. I understand loving TDKR to some degree and I don't fault anyone for it. It wasn't what /I/ wanted to see though and certainly not as good as it could have been even for what was presented to us the way it was.

 

[BatLobster]

I would agree that some of those flashbacks were unnecessary.

Although, did we really need to flashback to the stethoscope scene with Thomas Wayne in BB a second time, as if we didn't get it? The quick flashback has just always kind of been Nolan's style.

 

[The Batman]

I didn't really like the close associations to BB/TDK either, and it makes TDKR feel like the film version of a clip show. I wish that, like TDK, TDKR could've been a sequel while firmly standing on its own feet. Most people can watch TDK without watching BB. I wish I could say the same for TDKR.

There's just too many slight, yet glaring flaws that keep me from loving TDKR as much as I did BB/TDK. I can recognize that its a better made film than most comic book movies, but it could've truly been fantastic with some tweaks, IMO.

 

[Isearch4dope]

I remember saying right before shooting starts on TDKR that it'll probably be nothing like TDK and I knew people would walk in on opening night expecting a TDK 2.0

BB was drastically different than TDK and so was with TDKR, also each film has it's flaws whether you brush it off or not. I'm on the camp where my only complaint about TDKR was the length, it needed either to be longer to drag out certain scenes or cut out of the film completely (and even with that it's hard to do). Otherwise, I didn't see anything I didn't like, it's still a Batman film the end and for me it did a pretty good job ending Nolan's run on the franchise.

Indeed we weren't expecting TDK 2.0 but something on the same level at least...not weaker. You see it all starts with picking the right challenge and scenarios to fulfil your story that won't instantly garner attention from viewers who could see judging from your past work that you know better.

Pretty good job indeed in the ending itself yes but by no means in the execution. I swear if I would have only seen the ending before getting to see the entire movie I probably would have publicly declared that the movie will be the most epic of epics to ever hit cinemas.

 

[The_Raganork]

The passage of time depicted after the stock exchange hit where it goes from noon to overcast to dusk to night is a mess. Compare that with Skyfall, when Bond arrives it is overcast, as Bond prepares for the siege on his mansion the light is beginning to fade, Sllva arrives at dusk, Silva raises the siege while the sky darkens degree by degree in each shot, until finally the mansion is blown to golden smolder against the now pitch black sky. The passage of day to night takes place over a period of fifteen minutes and everything is gradual and sensible. It really makes the editing of Rises look downright amateur in comparison.

What a great example from Skyfall you pointed out here. You're 100% right. It just doesn't feel like time is moving at a normal or even a structured pace in TDKR.

I will say this though, I was there at the Stock exchange shoot and it was raining like CRAZY that day, it was all sorts of terrible weather. Part of that could have affected the outcome.

How long is that scene comparing to the moment after the stock exchange its and we know what time is ? A little different right ? More time , you have the ability to transition smoothly.

And i dont thinks that's an editing problem. Thats a problem straight from the conception. The hours of a stock exchange and how they wanted to use a lot of black in that chase scene. In a bunch of minutes they cant transition any way that looks good. Either they choose to present the chase at night , or not. That's not being amateur. That's a simple decision.

It's kind of an editing problem but more of a continuity problem. They shot the Stock Exchange in NYC during the Day but the chase in L.A. at night but either didn't think, or purposely didn't shoot during dusk. So essentially the scene goes from being 3 in the afternoon to about 11 pm within a matter of seconds.

If they had only put a few shots of the sun going down it would have flowed a little better. The joke is that Batman goes into a tunnel during the day and comes out and it's night but the tunnel never seems to be very long and since we don't see him enter the tunnel it really affects how we assume what time it is prior.

The shot before the tunnel is still daytime. Then inside the tunnel, then they leave and it's night.

There's no sensible way to correct this using imagination, especially cause we know Gotham is only SO big. There's no way the sun could have completely started setting and have set that fast.

One could say it jumps time but then how long was the chase all together? Hours? it certainly doesn't feel that long and if you think about it it seems a lot less fast paced if the chase lasted 2 hours.

 

[BatLobster]

There IS a dusk shot right before we cut to Daggett's apartment though. It's nowhere near smooth, but not impossible to rationalize. Although they kinda do shoot themselves in the foot with the timer on the program.

Still though, it's not all that different from when Rachel is driving with Bruce in the daytime, then makes a turn, ends up in the Narrows and it's night. All while continuous dialogue is happening. There's always a very symbolic relationship at play between day and night in any Batman film.

Batman's return had to happen at night.

 

[The_Raganork]

I would agree that some of those flashbacks were unnecessary.

Although, did we really need to flashback to the stethoscope scene with Thomas Wayne in BB a second time, as if we didn't get it? The quick flashback has just always kind of been Nolan's style.

The absolute worse one was the Gordon one. What a way to screw up that moment. It's written badly, shot badly, edited badly.

Batman and Gordon have been a team since BB but in their last scene they almost play off as virtual strangers. Then to make it even less subtle they throw that flashback at us.

That was the perfect time for Gordon to pull off a moment more akin to "We need to save Harvey Dent, I need to save Harvey Dent!". Something personal and responsive, not some half assed: "Bruce Wayne?"

 

[shauner111]

it has to do with the rushed quality of the film. Amazing time jumps that are hardly explained.

Lackluster characters like Talia, who could have been pretty amazing if they hadn't spent so much time making Bane everything and leaving her with the the leftovers of his damage.

Forgotten characters like Gordon throughout most of the film. Part of what makes TDK so great is that it plays between a few main characters, one of them being Gordon who holds a lot of weight in the film. TDKR seems to forget that Gordon is a major part of this Gotham. It also seems to forget Selina in the middle part of the film, instead focusing on quick glimpses into John Blake's life. Whom I still think adds nothing to the film that couldn't have been done with more from Gordon and Selina...even so what they show of Blake is really nothing much. Just him going here, going there...

and worse for me...it wasn't about anything. There's a threat on Gotham and it has to be resolved but there was so much more in TDK's threat. It wasn't going to be the end of Gotham as we know it but the ramifications of what happens in TDK were going to be far and wide no matter what.

TDKR seemed superficial. Throw a nuke in there and every one will have to accept the damage that can be done but I was hoping for a more internal story like the other two.

Fair enough. I don't see it that way though. I also had no problems with Gordon's stance in the story or Selina's. It needed to serve the story, not "we have to do some insane stuff for Gordon to do because he's Commissioner Gordon"...no, he had more to do in TDK because that's what that story called for. TDKR didn't call for it. We may disagree on that, and that's fine. Gordon in this movie still had more to do than the Burton/Shumacher movies, so hey..im not going to complain.

it has to do with the rushed quality of the film. Amazing time jumps that are hardly explained.

I didn't really need the time jumps to be explained personally, but I will say that it would have been cool if the movie was longer and did go into the details. I get that criticism even though it didn't affect me.

I would love to see a director's cut that put the film to about 3 hours. A good 20 minutes extra, of the 5 months of prison time + the reactions of the people in Gotham when it was under siege AND more violent actions taking place to the rich people, etc. Things that could only make it onto a Blu-ray release. Not counting some of Bane's origins. Simple things like showing him traveling across mountains, reading books and showing his intellect and of course a couple of shot of Bane training with Ra's. These are things that weren't necessary for me but it would be an incredible extra to have.

Just 20/25 minutes of extra footage.

But the rest of the complaints don't really sit well with me. I just don't see them like some of you do.

 

[BatLobster]

The absolute worse one was the Gordon one. What a way to screw up that moment. It's written badly, shot badly, edited badly.

Batman and Gordon have been a team since BB but in their last scene they almost play off as virtual strangers. Then to make it even less subtle they throw that flashback at us.

That was the perfect time for Gordon to pull off a moment more akin to "We need to save Harvey Dent, I need to save Harvey Dent!". Something personal and responsive, not some half assed: "Bruce Wayne?"

Damn, you don't even like the "Even a man doing something as simple.." line? I absolutely adore that moment and the way Bale plays it. Everything else is secondary to me there. Flashback was unnecessary, I agree...but to be fair, we're just seeing Gordon's memory being triggered there, no different than the Two-Face flashback really.

I think the slightly underwhelmed reaction was part of the point though. The rich spoiled brat? It shows how much more powerful Bruce is as a symbol than a man. It's like Gordon is struggling to believe it at first.

 

[Tequilla]

It's kind of an editing problem but more of a continuity problem. They shot the Stock Exchange in NYC during the Day but the chase in L.A. at night but either didn't think, or purposely didn't shoot during dusk. So essentially the scene goes from being 3 in the afternoon to about 11 pm within a matter of seconds.

No its not a continuity shot problem (off course the continuity is broken ) , or editing or anything in that sort of department. The moment Bane says its time to go mobile , it takes what ? 5 minute ? 7 minute ? There is no way they can pass 5 minutes from the moment a stock exchange works to night. Its simply impossible. Earth doesn't rotate that fast.

If the scene had dusks transitioning, the whole chase would have to work like that and it wouldn't end at night. But the purpose of the scene is to see Batman again at its own environment. They choose to film the whole thing at night. After that you cant hide the blunder.

The problem is in the conception of the scene. Stock exchange hours. 5 minutes for the file to upload. Night chase. You cant make this facts continuously , unless ...you don't.

You cant transition smoothly a time lapse of 5 minutes like that.

Comparing with a much bigger scene in Syfall is apples and oranges. You have so much more time to do time transitions.

 

[The_Raganork]

Fair enough. I don't see it that way though. I also had no problems with Gordon's stance in the story or Selina's. It needed to serve the story, not "we have to do some insane stuff for Gordon to do because he's Commissioner Gordon"...no, he had more to do in TDK because that's what that story called for. TDKR didn't call for it. We may disagree on that, and that's fine. Gordon in this movie still had more to do than the Burton/Shumacher movies, so hey..im not going to complain.

I don't see that as true because TDKR half asses stuff to do with Gordon.

He has a triumphant moment where he saves himself in the hospital.

Is the only one who will investigate Bane

Runs a small rebellion against Bane during the siege

Saves all of Gotham by stopping the Bomb the first time.

It's clear they wanted to give Gordon something to do in this story and that he was important to the story but they do it superficially. Instead of him getting something meaningful to do he gets a few action scenes and a subplot that's ignored for most of the film.

Think on how interesting it would have been to watch the rebellion battle Bane's Mercs. It's hinted at in some promotional material (i.e. 'Arrest on Sight' photo) and even in the film when Gordon says: "I have to get on Television" but Blake warns against it. The point was to have a hero in Gotham during the siege and that would be Gordon but the movie glances over it. To make matters worse it has that "triumphant" moment where the Special Forces agents comes into the kitchen and lo and behold it's Gordon whose there...but so what? We literally saw nothing of Gordon's actions during the time flips.

There was so much potential but it's half presented. Much like the entire characters of Foley and Jen

I didn't really need the time jumps to be explained personally, but I will say that it would have been cool if the movie was longer and did go into the details. I get that criticism even though it didn't affect me.

I didn't need them explained. I understood them it just wasn't good.

I would love to see a director's cut that put the film to about 3 hours. A good half hour extra, of the 5 months of prison time + the reactions of the people in Gotham when it was under siege AND more violent actions taking place to the rich people, etc. Things that could only make it onto a Blu-ray release. Not counting some of Bane's origins. Simple things like showing him traveling across mountains, reading books and showing his intellect and of course a couple of shot of Bane training with Ra's. These are things that weren't necessary for me but it would be an incredible extra to have.

Just 20/25 minutes of extra footage.

But the rest of the complaints don't really sit well with me. I just don't see them like some of you do.

While I agree more time could have helped, they could have trimmed down somethings and beefed up some others to make the film we got better in it's existing time.

 

[Isearch4dope]

The absolute worse one was the Gordon one. What a way to screw up that moment. It's written badly, shot badly, edited badly.

Batman and Gordon have been a team since BB but in their last scene they almost play off as virtual strangers. Then to make it even less subtle they throw that flashback at us.

That was the perfect time for Gordon to pull off a moment more akin to "We need to save Harvey Dent, I need to save Harvey Dent!". Something personal and responsive, not some half assed: "Bruce Wayne?"

That hospital scene left me with an open mouth. I mean that was supposed to be a MOMENT right? It just flew by like ummm....it's nothing move along folks. The scene with him and Selina right after should have been cut down because Gordon and Bat's relationship had more weight.

 

[The_Raganork]

No its not a continuity shot problem (off course the continuity is broken ) , or editing or anything in that sort of department. The moment Bane says its time to go mobile , it takes what ? 5 minute ? 7 minute ? There is no way they can pass 5 minutes from the moment a stock exchange works to night. Its simply impossible. Earth doesn't rotate that fast.

If the scene had dusks transitioning, the whole chase would have to work like that and it wouldn't end at night. But the purpose of the scene is to see Batman again at its own environment. They choose to film the whole thing at night. After that you cant hide the blunder.

The problem is in the conception of the scene. Stock exchange hours. 5 minutes for the file to upload. Night chase. You cant make this facts continuously , unless ...you don't.

You cant transition smoothly a time lapse of 5 minutes like that.

Comparing with a much bigger scene in Syfall is apples and oranges. You have so much more time to do time transitions.

No...I don't agree.

Once they're in the Stock Exchange time outside can pass in almost anyway. There's an indeterminate time between the first Gunshot and them leaving. They aren't doing anything timed until the latter half of being inside the stock exchange.

So holding the captives COULD have taken hours. If they had shown a few shots of Foley outside waiting for whatever he was waiting for and it was becoming increasingly darker then the whole thing would have made more sense.

So I call it a continuity problem. They shot one half during the day and the other half at night and didn't bother to think of the downtime in the middle.

 

[Tacit Ronin]

Part of what irked me was how HARD it tried to be associated with BB and TDK as if we didn't know. I hated the flashbacks, I thought they were a lazy way to not have to go into explanation about BB. The only good one was the first one with Harvey, which seemed more like Gordon reliving a Nightmare rather than blatantly trying to remind us what happened.

The flashback in the Wayne Manor scene was dumb. The scene places us as a layman to learn about what happened to the city within those eight years (via terrible exposition) and be reintroduced to old characters and meet the new. The scene then suddenly attempts to put us in the subjective turbulence of Gordon's mind out of nowhere. And then when it's done the scene switches back to objectivity again. It's poorly done and there is no concrete coherence to any of the shot choices. I was slightly turned off by the film by that point actually.

 

[shauner111]

The flashback was absolutely necessary. That moment is one of my favorite moments of the whole trilogy. The music, the flashback, is perfect. It reminds fans of what this entire partnership is all about and it's an emotional execution. Plus general audiences, believe it or not are a much larger part of this whole thing. Fanboys and people who remember every detail from Batman Begins, we're only a tiny part of what makes up the audience. That flashback was actually needed.

It's also a memory of Gordon's in that moment. He's thinking of what Batman just said.

And yes BatLobster, that was the whole point of "Bruce Wayne?" it's like "Huh?? that rich careless idiot?"