The Dark Knight Rises The TDKR General Discussion Thread - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 148

[JackWhite]

I never got the feeling Nolan was exhausted by film three. Even though TDKR has its fair share of critics, I think most of them would agree there was a lot of great material and ideas within the film, that if explored more thoroughly, could have had a much better payoff: The class warfare, a weary and broken down Batman, the whole legacy angle with Blake, even Talia and Bane's overall arc.

But I do agree it feels like Nolan fast forwarded through some key things between the end of TDK and the beginning of TDKR.

 

[DACrowe]

Maybe had it been four or five movies I'd have felt differently. Yeah I can see they were exhausted with it and that's understandable after doing it twice before. When ?i say like Bond I don't mean tone I just meant keep the story going, I just don't think Nolan had to make it so final.

I do actually feel abit better about it after what Batlobsterrises said about the origin now been about so people know it. I'm hoping after Superman/Batman I'll feel even better about it

Ah but Nolan wanted his vision to have a beginning middle and end. He wanted it to be more like a great cinematic epic, as opposed to an episodic adventure series. Again, while the analogies aren't perfect, I think he'd look to something like Star Wars or even The Godfather for more inspiration than Bond in that sense.

But I do agree that we kind of skipped a step (or two) to get to the end. But I just accept that.

 

[DACrowe]

I never got the feeling Nolan was exhausted by film three. Even though TDKR has its fair share of critics, I think most of them would agree there was a lot of great material and ideas within the film, that if explored more thoroughly, could have had a much better payoff: The class warfare, a weary and broken down Batman, the whole legacy angle with Blake, even Talia and Bane's overall arc.

But I do agree it feels like Nolan fast forwarded through some key things between the end of TDK and the beginning of TDKR.

Exhausted is probably not the right word. However, he did not likely want to do a series of films about Batman facing new or recurring villains in the wake of the Joker. As fans of the character, we see that is where it should be heading in the next one, but I think he wanted each film to have its own unique voice and he had done the "Batman faces classic threat" story with TDK. I don't think he wanted to repeat himself.

I also think as an artist, he did not want to keep making Batman movies, which I can understand.

 

[shauner111]

Yeah, it also has a lot to do with the end of TDK. I still think the "villain of the week" or "Bond franchise" would have happened if the ending included Two-Face being exposed for what he did + Batman remaining as the hero he was. Then Joker would have been right. The freaks would come out from every angle. And Joker DID say "this town deserves a better class of criminal, and im gonna give it to them"- i always took that as Joker meaning himself. He's the better class of criminal because he's not after money and all of those power plays that take place.

But Batman took the fall, became the "heel" or villain. Dent was still the white knight. Joker wasn't wrong because it all would have happened if they knew the truth about Dent (which ends up happening in Rises when the people eat each other) but he was made to look wrong through Batman/Gordon's cover-up. "The Joker can not win".

The end of TDK allowed them to fix Gotham up quite a bit. Hope was on the streets more than ever even though it was a lie.

So now i view it like sure! We could have seen more freaks or whatever in a story or two after TDK. But i think it comes down to the ending of the second movie. And how Nolan thought it was logical to think "OK they covered up the lie, if the lie worked then that means it should be a victory for Gordon and Batman. And Gotham. So let's do that. Dent's name lives on and they clean the streets. Batman isn't needed anymore".

 

[Shikamaru]

Yeah, it also has a lot to do with the end of TDK. I still think the "villain of the week" or "Bond franchise" would have happened if the ending included Two-Face being exposed for what he did + Batman remaining as the hero he was. Then Joker would have been right. The freaks would come out from every angle. And Joker DID say "this town deserves a better class of criminal, and im gonna give it to them"- i always took that as Joker meaning himself. He's the better class of criminal because he's not after money and all of those power plays that take place.

But Batman took the fall, became the "heel" or villain. Dent was still the white knight. Joker wasn't wrong because it all would have happened if they knew the truth about Dent (which ends up happening in Rises when the people eat each other) but he was made to look wrong through Batman/Gordon's cover-up. "The Joker can not win".

The end of TDK allowed them to fix Gotham up quite a bit. Hope was on the streets more than ever even though it was a lie.

So now i view it like sure! We could have seen more freaks or whatever in a story or two after TDK. But i think it comes down to the ending of the second movie. And how Nolan thought it was logical to think "OK they covered up the lie, if the lie worked then that means it should be a victory for Gordon and Batman. And Gotham. So let's do that. Dent's name lives on and they clean the streets. Batman isn't needed anymore".

The problem with this is the false assumption that the "freaks" had any connection to the whole "Joker cannot win" scenario at the end in the first place. Or that the Joker's plan was to bring freaks into the city in the first place.

 

[DACrowe]

And I think they even subtly still play with it. Essentially Batman and Joker's theatricality and "escalation" paved the way for a girl who was probably a teenager during the events of TDK to start wearing a cat motif when she became a cat burglar. A simple addition to what should be a functional suit (besides, the---ahem, heels), but an influence of that time.

Honestly, yes there is a story of the power vacuum left by Joker, Two-Face and Batman's pre-TDK efforts collapsing the mob where crime would get ugly. I imagine that this story would be great for Black Face and The Penguin. And there could be a number of other villains who could have been inspired by Joker to get their freak on.

However, whether that happened or not, Nolan chose to fast forward past that first year or two of chaos into the "cleanliness" of a gentrified (and authoritarian) Gotham. They called Gordon a war hero for a reason at the top of TDKR. There was likely a war on crime in those earliest days following Dent/Two-Face's death, but the war is long over by the time TDKR starts.

Would I have liked to see that war? Yes, and I think Batman should have played a major role in it, even if he was chased by the cops. But I respect the decision made by Nolan and company to move straight to the end, even if I wish we could have explored that facet of the story more.

 

[Bruce Malone]

I just love how visually epic TDKR is. My friend brought over his blu-ray copy (how i don't have it on blu-ray yet i don't know?) and watching the cinematography on a 60" screen was just mind-blowing especially since like 40% of the film was shot in Imax. A real feast for the eyes which i'd put up with Avatar actually in that regards.

 

[BH/HHH]

Ah but Nolan wanted his vision to have a beginning middle and end. He wanted it to be more like a great cinematic epic, as opposed to an episodic adventure series. Again, while the analogies aren't perfect, I think he'd look to something like Star Wars or even The Godfather for more inspiration than Bond in that sense.

But I do agree that we kind of skipped a step (or two) to get to the end. But I just accept that.

Yeah, I guess its the skipping part that kind of bugs me but I'm sure I'll get over it someday t:

Well tbh the Star Wars comparison is spot on for me cause I loved the first two and thought the third was decent but had something missing which is exactly how I feel about the Nolan Bat films.

 

[shauner111]

And I think they even subtly still play with it. Essentially Batman and Joker's theatricality and "escalation" paved the way for a girl who was probably a teenager during the events of TDK to start wearing a cat motif when she became a cat burglar. A simple addition to what should be a functional suit (besides, the---ahem, heels), but an influence of that time.

Honestly, yes there is a story of the power vacuum left by Joker, Two-Face and Batman's pre-TDK efforts collapsing the mob where crime would get ugly. I imagine that this story would be great for Black Face and The Penguin. And there could be a number of other villains who could have been inspired by Joker to get their freak on.

However, whether that happened or not, Nolan chose to fast forward past that first year or two of chaos into the "cleanliness" of a gentrified (and authoritarian) Gotham. They called Gordon a war hero for a reason at the top of TDKR. There was likely a war on crime in those earliest days following Dent/Two-Face's death, but the war is long over by the time TDKR starts.

Would I have liked to see that war? Yes, and I think Batman should have played a major role in it, even if he was chased by the cops. But I respect the decision made by Nolan and company to move straight to the end, even if I wish we could have explored that facet of the story more.

Good point about the Cat-suit.

Black Face? Haha what happened to his mask!?

But yes, i totally agree about a story with Sionis and Cobblepot. My only problem with Black Mask is how you can sort-of do similar things with Penguin and do em' better too. Also since they started the universe from the ground up, Sionis should have been introduced in Begins if he existed. It just seems weird to show Bruce's childhood, etc..then in movie #3 or 4 suddenly there's this guy who knew Bruce way back. I always find that lazy. Unless the universe begins with a well established Batman, and Black Mask is just there, that's different.

Of course Joker could have inspired Mad Hatter or Riddler.

Every time you or somebody else bring up the "war hero" line, it tells me that there might be an untold story.

The problem with this is the false assumption that the "freaks" had any connection to the whole "Joker cannot win" scenario at the end in the first place. Or that the Joker's plan was to bring freaks into the city in the first place.

It wasn't Joker's plan to bring freaks into Gotham. But i think he believed that more freaks would now be inspired by Two-Face and his actions along with the presence of Joker himself. I always take it that Batman does everything in his power to not show the people what became of Dent, to hide that freakish side. And to lock up the Joker. Keeping all that craziness away from the public eye so they dont dwell on things and start getting inspired. Which is what Joker wanted. It's like Ledger's Joker wanted Gotham to continue like the animated series lol, then Bats said NO B**CH, this aint no goddamn villain of the week scenario brah! I wont let Gotham turn into a nightmare of freaks roaming around for the next 2 decades.

This may sound bold, but i feel like Bale's Batman was able to make Gotham a better place (with the help of Dent) in such a little timeframe...a lot more than the comic Batman who seems to be in his 40s or 50s and Gotham is still the nastiest city in America. After decades it's still filled with dozens of freaks at a time. The mob still rules. It's as if he doesn't get anything done no matter how hard he tries, and that's obviously the charm of the comics. It's a never ending battle. But i feel like Bale's Batman was around for a few years and got **** done much more effectively. And he didn't have to be the world's greatest detective to pull it off. Just a smart one. He took a beating sure. Of course Gotham isn't fixed by the end of it too. But it's a lot better off during his reign. Inspiring the right people, Gotham is in better hands actually. Source material Batsy never seems to inspire anything but negativity.

I just love how visually epic TDKR is. My friend brought over his blu-ray copy (how i don't have it on blu-ray yet i don't know?) and watching the cinematography on a 60" screen was just mind-blowing especially since like 40% of the film was shot in Imax. A real feast for the eyes which i'd put up with Avatar actually in that regards.

I can't stress this anymore. It's so epic.

 

[DACrowe]

You could say that Gotham in BB is like Chicago in the 1920s and 1930s. By the time TDKR comes along, it is more like a modern American city (albeit more NYC than Chicago, and I am talking about more than aesthetic).

But yes, the luxury of film is to actually show Batman have a positive effect on Gotham. Gotham just seems to get worse in the comics, because that lends itself to the form of storytelling that is infinite. Of course one could argue that it is something inherent in the characters. The Nolan/Bale Batman has a battle plan to save his city. The one in the comics only goes after the symptoms, which never solves the root problem.

 

[shauner111]

You could say that Gotham in BB is like Chicago in the 1920s and 1930s. By the time TDKR comes along, it is more like a modern American city (albeit more NYC than Chicago, and I am talking about more than aesthetic).

But yes, the luxury of film is to actually show Batman have a positive effect on Gotham. Gotham just seems to get worse in the comics, because that lends itself to the form of storytelling that is infinite. Of course one could argue that it is something inherent in the characters. The Nolan/Bale Batman has a battle plan to save his city. The one in the comics only goes after the symptoms, which never solves the root problem.

 

[bilbo baggins]

totally off topic but i would love to see a batman beyond type movie where bale comes back and trains a new batman. i know nolan said he is done but maybe down the road he gets a wild hair and has another story up his sleeve. i never say never, maybe down the road (like maybe 7-10 years). i mean everyone has said that he closed off his trilogy, but the scenario off bruce coming back to gotham and training someone (blake would be to old by then and he would have to use the bunker, as the batcave is above the orphanage} i truly think that at some point nolan will have another story to tell in his batverse down the road. hope i am right.

 

[BatLobster]

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/oscars-ceremony-celebrate-movie-heroes-670790

The Oscars are going to have a cinematic heroes theme this year, which will include superheroes and will surely feature TDKT in some way. Good job Oscars, you're actually giving me somewhat of a reason to want to tune in this year.

 

[shauner111]

Cooool. Im actually stoked for the oscars this year because 2013 was probably the best year ive seen for movies. It was just non stop quality in the last few months. And the golden globes did a pretty decent job with who they gave their awards to.

 

[kvz5]

I wonder if Nolan will be mentioned:

BEVERLY HILLS, CA — The 86th Academy Awards® will be a celebration of movie heroes, producers Craig Zadan and Neil Meron announced today. Offering their first preview of the upcoming Oscar broadcast, hosted by Ellen DeGeneres, the producers said the show will honor big-screen real-life heroes, super heroes, popular heroes and animated heroes, both past and present, as well as the bold filmmakers who bring them to life. The Oscars will air on Sunday, March 2, live on ABC.

“We wanted to unify the show with an entertaining and emotional theme,” said Zadan and Meron. “People around the world go to the movies to be inspired by the characters they see on the screen. By celebrating the gamut of heroes who have enriched our movie-going experience, we hope to create an evening of fun and joy. And that includes the filmmakers and actors who take risks and stimulate us with provocative subjects and daring characters. They are all heroes in the cinematic landscape."

“Of course, there will be no shortage of comedy with Ellen DeGeneres as our host,” the producers added. “There may also be a few musical surprises along the way.”

http://www.oscars.org/press/pressreleases/2014/20140114.html

 

[georgec]

Nice, further down it also says this:

The exhibit will include films centered on real-life heroes (“Gandhi,” “Silkwood&#8221, super heroes (“Superman,” “The Dark Knight&#8221, animated heroes (“Shrek,” “The Incredibles&#8221, action heroes (“Seven Samurai,” “Gladiator&#8221, literary heroes (“To Kill a Mockingbird,” “Grapes of Wrath&#8221 and more.

 

[Kane52630]

 

[milost]

Why is Robin missing his legs and arms?

 

[Travesty]

Why is there no logo of a bone?

 

[milost]

Oh man, that avatar.



That's what the chalk bats are, grounded up bone dust.

 

[Travesty]

That's what the chalk bats are, grounded up bone dust.

 

[shauner111]

Blake is still my favorite Robin hehehehe. Screw the haters!

Anytime the boy wonder arrives on the scene, wearing red, that little mask and cape..it lightens up the mood. It distracts from the Batman and Gordon relationship. The bat-family would be a nice addition to the reboot only because it's fresh in 2015, but it's still corny to me. That's why Blake is my favorite. We dont see him dress up. He's not some little kid who's there to hold back Batman when he has no goddamn self-control. Or there to get more kiddie viewers to read comics and watching movies. That has its appeal but i say who friggin cares? At least i dont. Blake, played by a great actor in JGL, takes (IMO) the best parts of the adult-Grayson, Todd & Drake characters...and does it without being whiny or too over the top annoying with his jokes.

My favorite Batman stories were without the traditional Robin anyway. Whether that be Burton, Nolan, Miller (i dont call Carrie Kelly traditional), 1st season of B:TAS, stories from Snyder, Morrison, Loeb, O'Neill, etc.

Bones and stuff? I dont see how it's funny that a person is so angry that they feel it deep in their bones, in their soul, from losing the only people they loved. HAAAAA HAAAAAH! soooOO funny!

Im so thankful the reboot is focusing on Nightwing, skipping right over his Robin years.

 

[Travesty]

Blake is still my favorite Robin hehehehe. Screw the haters!


Bones and stuff? I dont see how it's funny that a person is so angry that they feel it deep in their bones, in their soul, from losing the only people they loved. HAAAAA HAAAAAH! soooOO funny!

 

[JackWhite]

lol, Blake shouldn't even have the chalk symbol as "his". Isn't it suppose to represent the "real" Batman?

 

[Travesty]

lol, Blake shouldn't even have the chalk symbol as "his". Isn't it suppose to represent the "real" Batman?

Yeah, but Robin John Blake becomes the Batman, so now it's his.