The Dark Knight Rises The TDKR General Discussion Thread - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 149

[Shikamaru]

It just shows you where the time and focus is. Arrow seems to be more about the fighting and it doesnt care about acting or telling an original story (some will disagree with me on that but oh well).

Most of the time in Hollywood, it's one way or the other. Great fights, bad story or the other way around.

Those two clips above, of people randomly falling. Ill put it this way. These are things that nobody will notice unless they've seen the movie multiple times and are analysing the frame. Secondly...that first clip (to me) doesn't have the mercenary falling by himself. The 2nd clip sure, but i see Batman grabbing one dude and swinging him into that guy that falls down. I dont think it's a screw-up.

Like i said, the 2nd clip is a screw-up. But it's almost out of the frame that you can just chalk it up to Blake sweeping his legs under him.

It's not the best choreography, but i usually dont care about that stuff. It's not like i went to see a pure martial arts film or something super over the top like Watchmen. Im expecting amazing choreography in Batman vs Superman because of the universe/director.

Im not trying to tell myself that it's OK just because it's Nolan and i love the trilogy. It's just that i know Nolan, and fight choreography will always be at the bottom of the list. Im a Batman fan before many things, but when it comes to seeing him on film, my priority as a viewer has to due with the filmmaking...NOT the Batman. That's why these moments dont bother me because im getting focus on story/character before everything else. Which is a rarity in Hollywood.

He has incredible stunts but his choreography is lackluster. Then again, i thought it was well done in Inception.

I'll take story over action any day in an instant, but I found Nolan's choreography straight-up lazy. It isn't simply a matter of not being too focused on it; they kinda half-assed it. If Batman - any Batman, realistic or not - actually fought like that in real life, he would be beaten/dead after just a few street gangs. I saw better movements from my Sensei in karate class. I'm not expecting pure martial arts or something over the top like Watchmen, but I want something that at least looks somewhat believable.

Also for the record, I'm only referring to the fighting itself (punching, kicking, etc.). Things like gliding, driving the Tumbler, hiding in the shadows, etc. were very well done.

 

[shauner111]

Yes, but is your "sensei" wearing what Bale was wearing?

But i agree with the punching and kicking. It was half assed, but i thought the story was so strong, and there weren't too many fighting scenes, so it doesn't bother me. I dont think it's that bad though. It doesn't take me out of the movie like some people say.

For instance, the 2 gifs where the mercenaries are falling...i would have never seen that in a million years if it wasn't taken out of context and made into a gif on the internet. That kind of thing probably happens in every single hollywood film with fighting sequences. We just live in a age where everything can be over-analysed to death.

 

[JackWhite]

Bale moves pretty fast in those gifs the Joker posted; the second one in particular. I think the problem in those clips is mostly attributed to the thugs just falling over or standing there waiting to be hit.

I know I always go back to it, but the fight scene in Maroni's night club in TDK was perfect. The thugs were actually reacting to Batman coming forward. I know there is a strobe light going off during that scene, but it's pretty clear the choreography was pretty tight there.

 

[The Endless]

The stuntwork and choreography seemed to be an afterthought.

Obviously story and characters come before action scenes. The story and the characters should DRIVE the action scenes. But at the end of the day if you're making a movie about Batman, fight choreography and stuntwork is an incredibly important facet.

Honestly, that fight scene on the roof, how could a director of Nolan's calibre sit there and watch it and be happy with it? It's baffling.

 

[shauner111]

I didnt mind that scene. Like i said, i wouldnt have noticed the flaws if i didnt see a gif online that puts focus on 2 seconds from a movie.

The kicks from Catwoman were pretty damn awesome at least.

 

[The Endless]

I noticed them straight away. It's not hard to spot a guy throwing himself to the ground like he's been sparked out by Mike Tyson even though no one is anywhere near him haha.

It just surprises me. Nolan seems to pay a lot of attention to little details everywhere else. But not in fight scenes or action scenes. It's like he doesn't think they are important. They are very important to telling a story. A fight scene or a car chase has just as much importance to a story, or even to characterisation, as a line of dialogue.

For example, would The French Connection or Bullitt be the same films if those car chases were poorly done? Definitely not.

 

[Shikamaru]

Yes, but is your "sensei" wearing what Bale was wearing?

That's another problem in and of itself. Batman shouldn't be wearing that much armor. It weighs him down.

But i agree with the punching and kicking. It was half assed, but i thought the story was so strong, and there weren't too many fighting scenes, so it doesn't bother me. I dont think it's that bad though. It doesn't take me out of the movie like some people say.

For instance, the 2 gifs where the mercenaries are falling...i would have never seen that in a million years if it wasn't taken out of context and made into a gif on the internet. That kind of thing probably happens in every single hollywood film with fighting sequences. We just live in a age where everything can be over-analysed to death.

It didn't take me out of the film either. I didn't even notice any of the poor choreography when I first saw each film and yes, it was due to being invested so much in the actual story. Even with TDKR, I was too invested in the story issues I took to pay much attention to the fighting.

It kinda supports the theory I've had for a while. Nolan's story, Bale's acting, the themes regarding Batman and what he stands for, how he contrasts with the characters and world around him, all these things were done so well that it distracted viewers from the fact that Batman himself...kinda sucked. It's why I refer to TDK as "the ideal Batman film minus the ideal Batman".

 

[shauner111]

I noticed them straight away. It's not hard to spot a guy throwing himself to the ground like he's been sparked out by Mike Tyson even though no one is anywhere near him haha.

It just surprises me. Nolan seems to pay a lot of attention to little details everywhere else. But not in fight scenes or action scenes. It's like he doesn't think they are important. They are very important to telling a story. A fight scene or a car chase has just as much importance to a story, or even to characterisation, as a line of dialogue.

For example, would The French Connection or Bullitt be the same films if those car chases were poorly done? Definitely not.

I still wouldn't have noticed it. My focus is on Batman and Catwoman during that fight.

I disagree about the fighting being just as important. It's important, but it should never be as important as character, dialogue or story. I dont share the view that these fight scenes are bad, i think they're fine, they're just not mindblowingly awesome. They're not there to make you go WOW or THAT'S INSANE! They're just there to serve a purpose that they're fighting to get from point A to B. And to be honest, a fight in real life is never going to be so dramatic. You have people who are shocked to be confronted by the Batman, who is using martial arts on you. You have fear, being nervous in the moment, adrenaline, some with fighting skills going up against Batman and most of these characters dont have any fighting skills. Even those with skills are going up against a gigantic Bat they've never seen in the flesh. Taking all that into account when watching the trilogy fights instead of the usual "well, i dont care, it just needs to look smooth and badass!".

Remember, even if you hate his approach, Nolan is more about function over form or style, or what looks cool. And that comes back to the choreography. For better or worse.

 

[The Endless]

We're not talking about style. We're talking about execution. They are poorly executed action scenes on a technical level. This isn't opinion.

Opinion comes into play when you say you can or cannot overlook these poorly executed fight scenes. I can't overlook them because H2H fighting is a very important facet of the Batman character.

And you're missing my point. An action scene, a fighting style, how someone drives their car... IS characterisation. An action scene shouldn't just be to look cool. An action scene is a part of the story telling and characterisation if done right. A certain fighting style can tell us a lot about a character. Just like in real life boxing or MMA.

Nolan doesn't seem to grasp this. He seems to think fight scenes are beneath him or unimportant. But when it comes to a character like Batman and his enemies, where their fighting styles etc can actually help determine what kind of character they are... it should never be deemed unimportant.

Even Snyder who is obviously a lesser film maker, over all, understands this. Notice the difference in fighting styles between Kal and Faora and Zod. All distinctive. Their fighting styles help characterise who they are. So the action isn't treated as an afterthought.

 

[Shikamaru]

We're not talking about style. We're talking about execution. They are poorly executed action scenes on a technical level. This isn't opinion.

Opinion comes into play when you say you can or cannot overlook these poorly executed fight scenes. I can't overlook them because H2H fighting is a very important facet of the Batman character.

And you're missing my point. An action scene, a fighting style, how someone drives their car... IS characterisation. An action scene shouldn't just be to look cool. An action scene is a part of the story telling and characterisation if done right. A certain fighting style can tell us a lot about a character. Just like in real life boxing or MMA.

Nolan doesn't seem to grasp this. He seems to think fight scenes are beneath him or unimportant. But when it comes to a character like Batman and his enemies, where their fighting styles etc can actually help determine what kind of character they are... it should never be deemed unimportant.

. Especially the bolded part. It is entirely about function. The choreography is neither executed well nor does it even function well within the context of the specific world Nolan established.

 

[Tequilla]

Not really. I agree with the flawed execution (although much more in dark knight). But if there was something that was put thought was Batman's fighting style. Much more than in any of the movies you mentioned.Or in any Batman movie.This is well documented in Begins. They just made a horrible choice , with the less cinematic style they could encounter. But there's a very clear intent in showing Batman performing like he does.

Action cinema needs one particular thing. LENGTH. Every action choreographer will emphasize this. So that the lens is able to capture the movement , so that the actors can react , so that the audience can sense the movements. Pop any great movie with fighting and you'll see the big swings. Yet Keysi is actually a combat style for close quarters , and it relies very much on the lower body. Its probably very effective but when Nolan puts the camera steady it looks...awkward.

Donnie Yen , the best action performer out there talking exactly about it

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=[YT]VUN0FjYsM_U[/YT]

He talks about Mike Tyson style vs Bruce Lee actions in movies (starts about at 5.55 m )

 

[Green Goblin]

Anyone else want to see the Nolanverse continued in comic form?

 

[shauner111]

We're not talking about style. We're talking about execution. They are poorly executed action scenes on a technical level. This isn't opinion.

Opinion comes into play when you say you can or cannot overlook these poorly executed fight scenes. I can't overlook them because H2H fighting is a very important facet of the Batman character.

And you're missing my point. An action scene, a fighting style, how someone drives their car... IS characterisation. An action scene shouldn't just be to look cool. An action scene is a part of the story telling and characterisation if done right. A certain fighting style can tell us a lot about a character. Just like in real life boxing or MMA.

Nolan doesn't seem to grasp this. He seems to think fight scenes are beneath him or unimportant. But when it comes to a character like Batman and his enemies, where their fighting styles etc can actually help determine what kind of character they are... it should never be deemed unimportant.

Even Snyder who is obviously a lesser film maker, over all, understands this. Notice the difference in fighting styles between Kal and Faora and Zod. All distinctive. Their fighting styles help characterise who they are. So the action isn't treated as an afterthought.

I agree about Snyder. But that's my point. Snyder focuses on action and fights, the story is almost an afterthought. This is usually the way in Hollywood. It's black and white. One way or the other.

I dont think Nolan believes that it's beneath him. It's just not the priority. He didnt pick the fighting style that would look the coolest in a cinematic world, he chose the Keysi fighting style. Which isn't everybodys cup of tea i guess. When you're doing that in a Batman suit, it's not going to be so quick unless you're doing a lot post-production work to make it look cooler. Nolan isn't about that.

Anyways, im sure the new movies will have much better fighting. The whole forum will blow up with happiness.

I stand by what ive been saying forever though. A real martial artist doesn't show his full hand of cards, and probably wont show too much at all if he's going up against thugs who can only use a gun. Batman in these movies barely fought anyone unless they were random thugs.

 

[JackWhite]

Anyone else want to see the Nolanverse continued in comic form?

Yes.

Would love to see a scenario of "the war" between TDK and TDKR that we were deprived of on film.

 

[The Endless]

Ugh it's not about the style. It's about looking at the dailies and going "oh, that guy just fell over for no reason" or "oh, that guy has a machine gun but is clearly just standing there waiting for Batman to punch him" or "oh, that car was over there in that shot, but in the next shot it's disappeared".

It shouldn't be an either or situation. You can have a well told story with well rounded characters and technically brilliant action scenes. That is what makes a great film. See Heat or The French Connection or Ronin or countless other genuinely great crime thrillers. Hell i watched The Winter Soldier the other day. Really tight twisty story. All the characters are well rounded and used well. And the H2H fight scenes are the some of the best outside of Asia. Who directed it? The guys who did ****ing Community and Arrested Development.

And if you want "the war" read No Mans Land. Did it so much better.

 

[shauner111]

They do have technically brilliant action scenes just not fighting scenes. Yes, it should be both but most of the time it's one way or the other. Do those films you mention have martial arts fighting? I haven't seen them in a long time but i bet they don't. We're not talking about action sequences here, we're strictly talking about fights.

 

[AnneFan]

The kicks from Catwoman were pretty damn awesome at least.

Anne got her legs up high in the movie.

 

[gugumugats]

Anne got her legs up high in the movie.

*swoon

 

[Ryan]

My personal favourite fight scene was at the docks in BB. I always find when the pull back the camera on any Batman fight scene it comes across as cartoony. I get that same feeling whenever I see him running. Like the shower scene in Psycho, its what I didn't see that made it effective.

 

[shauner111]

The fight scenes in Winter Soldier were the best fight scenes ive ever seen in a comic book movie. There was some brutality too where you're like "holy ****!". If they give Batman a Cap type suit, as the rumors suggest, then they can pull this off.

 

[Shikamaru]

The reviews are also saying it has a great story and is one of the best comic book movies ever made. So there really was no valid excuse for Nolan's poor action scenes. Not that it matters much now that the trilogy is done, but he definitely screwed up in that department.

 

[Travesty]

Speaking of, I can't wait to see Cap this weekend!

 

[shauner111]

The reviews are also saying it has a great story and is one of the best comic book movies ever made. So there really was no valid excuse for Nolan's poor action scenes. Not that it matters much now that the trilogy is done, but he definitely screwed up in that department.

Well, here's the thing. I thought the majority of the movie was excellent, good story, fights, etc. It was like a part spy-thriller at times. Then the last 25 minutes or so was a huge letdown for me. The tone shifted, they played it safe and went back to the usual Marvel antics that i personally can't stand. So for most of the movie i was thinking "this is TDK of the Marvel universe if they just end it right"..and then they didnt. So now it's just a good/solid movie. Still the best Marvel movie hands down but yeah, because of the last bit, it fails to live up to the trilogy for me.

The story is good but not THAT good. Good for Marvel.

Also, i do agree that there should be that perfect balance between amazing fighting + a great story/characterization. Im only saying that it's usually not the case. You usually get a great story or you get amazing hand to hand combat. One or the other. Cap had that balance but a poor shift at the end.

 

[Travesty]

You didn't like the ending? So I guess JGL doesn't become Cap at the end?

 

[shauner111]

Hardy har.

The last few minutes were fine as a follow up to what just happened in the final battle. But the actual final battle and a big thing that sets it up right before (which i wont go into because it's a spoiler)...that stuff was just a huge letdown. Safe as hell and just eyerolling from my end. Which is my usual reaction to their movies. But i was extremely impressed by most of it. Still think it's great.

I recommend it for sure.