The Dark Knight Rises The TDKR General Discussion Thread - - - - Part 153

[Shikamaru]

Regarding the GA writing off Bale, I'll believe it when it see it. This isn't the 2000's anymore where every reboot had a good track record and topped its predecessor. We've had quite a few stinkers since then, MOS included. The same people used to say "Superman will reclaim his throne!" and "We're entering an era where Batman will be #2!" just two years ago. Well, look how that turned out .

 

[Tacit Ronin]

MOS fanboys say stupid, hilarious things. It's best not to take them seriously.

 

[BatLobster]

I don't think it's a bad thing, either. I always see predictions here that people will be worshipping Affleck's Batman and bashing Bale's in the future, but I think that's an overstatement and an exaggeration.

Outside of this forum and other internet communities (whose members are very vocal, often irrational, and spend every day talking about **** like this), it's not as if all the people who loved and enjoyed Bale's Batman will suddenly turn on the TDKT or forget about it all together. For every irrational, immature idiot in the world who will feel the need to criticize Bale's Batman to build up Affleck's, I'm sure we could find 50 more people that will be more level-headed and appreciative of each interpretation. "Shiny new toy" syndrome does exist, but it is much more prominent and noticeable in places like this.

Age also plays a factor in conversations like that, I feel. It seems to me that older fans like many of ourselves, who have a greater understanding of the comic book mythology and have now lived lived through multiple generations of live-action Batman films, are more appreciative and respectful of each interpretation of the character. We can recognize that no Batman interpretation will be without fault and might not always line up with our perspectives of the character, but that each one is valid and worthy of recognition.

I can never see myself writing of Bale's Batman or Keaton's Batman just because a newer version comes along. It's silly and childish. Anyone who does that is only hurting themselves and missing out, IMO.

I know where you're coming from, and I agree a lot of it is an age factor.

Look, we've disagreed on this issue before, but I really don't think it's accurate to say it's just some tiny minority of nerds that engage in this kind of thing. In today's rampant geek culture (which at this point is really just a synonym for pop culture), this kind of stuff gets talked about all over the place, all the time. You have fan community "spokesmen" like John Campea making statements like Batfleck "makes Bale look like a teletubby". And honestly it's fine, it's part of the "getting hyped for the new version" process. I agree with Annefan that this version will be able to stand the test of time in the end, but for better or worse that perception is out there and it's being fed.

And as far as "casual moviegoers" go...we've seen it happen before. Look at Tobey Maguire. The Raimi Spider-Man movies were HUGE, and I know plenty of people who were very big fans of those movies, and nowadays kind of dismiss Tobey's Peter/Spider-Man. Even though the reboot didn't end up surpassing Raimi's version in terms of critical and box office success, a lot of people have thrown Tobey under the bus in favor of Garfield.

I think Bale being overlooked in the best movie of his Bat-franchise (and arguably his career) could be emblematic to his place in the character's history. His movies might be among the most well-revered, but it's very possible he'll end up kind of as the "Timothy Dalton" of Batman. A more serious, grounded version, but far from the most popular (though at the same time ridiculed for the voice). I'm fine with that, and if that's what happens then so be it. Who knows what will ultimately happen once Batfleck is fully unveiled to the world, but I don't think it's an outlandish prediction, at this point that's where the smart money is.

 

[The Shape]

I know where you're coming from, and I agree a lot of it is an age factor.

Don't get me wrong. I don't mean to indicate that age is the only factor. There are other things that would factor into that kind of mindset like general awareness, interest level, and of course, personal preference.

Look, we've disagreed on this issue before, but I really don't think it's accurate to say it's just some tiny minority of nerds that engage in this kind of thing. In today's rampant geek culture (which at this point is really just a synonym for pop culture), this kind of stuff gets talked about all over the place, all the time. You have fan community "spokesmen" like John Campea making statements like Batfleck "makes Bale look like a teletubby". And honestly it's fine, it's part of the "getting hyped for the new version" process. I agree with Annefan that this version will be able to stand the test of time in the end, but for better or worse that perception is out there and it's being fed.

I also never suggested that there is only a tiny minority of people who care about films like these. However, you and I both know that the majority of people who watch these films are not nearly as invested in the films or these characters as we are.

We spend just about every day writing and communicating about these films, analyzing and exhausting every aspect of them (including facial stubble). We are exposed to hundreds of vocal opinions daily about previous films, films that are in production, and films that are planned sometimes 5-10 years into the future. We are also exposed to people who have clear biases against certain films, interpretations, characters, actors, and studios. We are knee-deep in the hype and anticipation that often causes people to make irrational statements or claims, or to lose sight of what's come before.

My point was that yes, we will see people write of Bale's Batman in favor of Affleck's, just as we saw people write off Burton's Batman in favor of Bale's. But while hardcore fanbases can seem quick to flip-flop and turn on previous iterations or actors, I don't think the same can be said for the majority of people in the world who will flock to theaters to see BvS. It's silly to think that a huge chunk of the people who see that movie will walk out having turned on TDKT and writing off that version of Batman as crap.

I once wrote that I don't think being a comic book fan can be considered "geeky" anymore, because superhero media has become ingrained into pop culture and is now widely accepted and anticipated by mainstream audiences, so I agree with you on that front. That doesn't change the fact that there is a vocal portion of the fanbase that loves to make their opinions known, and that communities like the Hype are not truly accurate reflections of how the world feels about these films.

Also, anyone who considers John Campea to be the "fan community spokesman" is an idiot. He is exactly the kind of vocal, irrational, and biased fan I'm talking about.

I think Bale being overlooked in the best movie of his Bat-franchise (and arguably his career) could be emblematic to his place in the character's history. His movies might be among the most well-revered, but it's very possible he'll end up kind of as the "Timothy Dalton" of Batman. A more serious, grounded version, but far from the most popular (though at the same time ridiculed for the voice). I'm fine with that, and if that's what happens then so be it. Who knows what will ultimately happen once Batfleck is fully unveiled to the world, but I don't think it's an outlandish prediction, at this point that's where the smart money is.

I completely disagree, and I think you're looking a that from a "worst case scenario" perspective. It also seems like you're underestimating just how popular and well received those films were, along with their ability to stand the test of time.

The only "Timothy Daltons" of the Batman franchises are Val Kilmer and George Clooney. In the past 10 years, the only two Batman actors that seem to get any recognition from fans and the media are Keaton and Bale, rightfully so. Christian Bale was Batman in a trilogy of films that were acclaimed by fans, critics, and audiences alike -- the only Batman actor to do so thus far and the only series that chronicles Batman from his beginning to his end.

Most now consider a movie like Batman 89 to be a classic, 25 years later. The Dark Knight is already to be considered a classic, and if you give it time, I think you'll see that Bale's Batman and the trilogy as a whole will be considered the same. It might not wind up being the most popular version of Batman in 50 years after 5 more actors take up the mantle, but it will always be remembered, respected, and appreciated as a part of Batman's long, never-ending history. That much I know for sure.

I think the fact that WB are "jumping right in" with the new Batman rather than rebooting from square one again so soon (a la Spidey) will only serve to help TDKT stand on it's own and be remembered for what it was.

 

[hafizbat]

I don't think it's a bad thing, either. I always see predictions here that people will be worshipping Affleck's Batman and bashing Bale's in the future, but I think that's an overstatement and an exaggeration.

Outside of this forum and other internet communities (whose members are very vocal, often irrational, and spend every day talking about **** like this), it's not as if all the people who loved and enjoyed Bale's Batman will suddenly turn on the TDKT or forget about it all together. For every irrational, immature idiot in the world who will feel the need to criticize Bale's Batman to build up Affleck's, I'm sure we could find 50 more people that will be more level-headed and appreciative of each interpretation. "Shiny new toy" syndrome does exist, but it is much more prominent and noticeable in places like this.

Age also plays a factor in conversations like that, I feel. It seems to me that older fans like many of ourselves, who have a greater understanding of the comic book mythology and have now lived lived through multiple generations of live-action Batman films, are more appreciative and respectful of each interpretation of the character. We can recognize that no Batman interpretation will be without fault and might not always line up with our perspectives of the character, but that each one is valid and worthy of recognition.

I can never see myself writing of Bale's Batman or Keaton's Batman just because a newer version comes along. It's silly and childish. Anyone who does that is only hurting themselves and missing out, IMO.

Don't get me wrong. I don't mean to indicate that age is the only factor. There are other things that would factor into that kind of mindset like general awareness, interest level, and of course, personal preference.



I also never suggested that there is only a tiny minority of people who care about films like these. However, you and I both know that the majority of people who watch these films are not nearly as invested in the films or these characters as we are.

We spend just about every day writing and communicating about these films, analyzing and exhausting every aspect of them (including facial stubble). We are exposed to hundreds of vocal opinions daily about previous films, films that are in production, and films that are planned sometimes 5-10 years into the future. We are also exposed to people who have clear biases against certain films, interpretations, characters, actors, and studios. We are knee-deep in the hype and anticipation that often causes people to make irrational statements or claims, or to lose sight of what's come before.

My point was that yes, we will see people write of Bale's Batman in favor of Affleck's, just as we saw people write off Burton's Batman in favor of Bale's. But while hardcore fanbases can seem quick to flip-flop and turn on previous iterations or actors, I don't think the same can be said for the majority of people in the world who will flock to theaters to see BvS. It's silly to think that a huge chunk of the people who see that movie will walk out having turned on TDKT and writing off that version of Batman as crap.

I once wrote that I don't think being a comic book fan can be considered "geeky" anymore, because superhero media has become ingrained into pop culture and is now widely accepted and anticipated by mainstream audiences, so I agree with you on that front. That doesn't change the fact that there is a vocal portion of the fanbase that loves to make their opinions known, and that communities like the Hype are not truly accurate reflections of how the world feels about these films.

Also, anyone who considers John Campea to be the "fan community spokesman" is an idiot. He is exactly the kind of vocal, irrational, and biased fan I'm talking about.





I completely disagree, and I think you're looking a that from a "worst case scenario" perspective. It also seems like you're underestimating just how popular and well received those films were, along with their ability to stand the test of time.

The only "Timothy Daltons" of the Batman franchises are Val Kilmer and George Clooney. In the past 10 years, the only two Batman actors that seem to get any recognition from fans and the media are Keaton and Bale, rightfully so. Christian Bale was Batman in a trilogy of films that were acclaimed by fans, critics, and audiences alike -- the only Batman actor to do so thus far and the only series that chronicles Batman from his beginning to his end.

Most now consider a movie like Batman 89 to be a classic, 25 years later. The Dark Knight is already to be considered a classic, and if you give it time, I think you'll see that Bale's Batman and the trilogy as a whole will be considered the same. It might not wind up being the most popular version of Batman in 50 years after 5 more actors take up the mantle, but it will always be remembered, respected, and appreciated as a part of Batman's long, never-ending history. That much I know for sure.

I think the fact that WB are "jumping right in" with the new Batman rather than rebooting from square one again so soon (a la Spidey) will only serve to help TDKT stand on it's own and be remembered for what it was.

Good posts man

I think after time, you start caring less and less about what other people think. That's how it is for me, anyway. I think I used to care a lot more in the past, but now I'm pretty much indifferent to what everyone else says, particularly on the internet or social media where any idiot can say anything. Especially concerning subjective things like sports or entertainment.

 

[BatLobster]

@theShape

You're right, I am looking at it from a "worst case scenario" perspective, but it's coming from a "hope for the best, expect the worst" philosophy. I'm just getting used to the idea now so it doesn't bother me as much when the time comes. It's cynical yes, but again...just expecting the worst so I can only be pleasantly surprised.

As for John Campea. I only find him occasionally annoying to be honest, but my point in bringing him up is...this is the world we live in today. One of the largest movie theater chains in the country has put him out there as a representative that's meant to be in touch with the audience. People like him (re: fanboys) make up a sizable chunk of the entertainment media. Just one of the many ways this culture has seeped into the mainstream.

You bring up a good point though. The vast majority of moviegoers aren't invested as we are in this. But at the same time, I just don't think Bale's Batman was ever necessarily the most popular element of the movies, so Affleck owning the role would likely just fuel that fire. That's just my feeling. I do think there's a chance Bale's Bruce Wayne might still get its proper due in the midst of everything, which would be fitting in a way.

hafzibat, you're right not to care. I'm slowly but surely getting there.

 

[The Batman]

I just don't think Bale's Batman was ever necessarily the most popular element of the movies, so Affleck owning the role would likely just fuel that fire.

I absolutely agree with you.

Its a shame that the Batfilm where Bale had both the main focus and the most praise was also the lowest grossing film in the trilogy.

 

[Shikamaru]

Well, I've always said BB and TDK were the perfect Batman films but lacked the perfect Batman (to me).

That being said, I don't see a take as Miller-heavy as Affleck's becoming that for me. While it's true Snyder will probably nail the character's intellect, Nolan totally nailed the character's heart. Ideally I want both, but given an ultimatum I would rather have the heart.

Of course, that's just me thinking with my film-buff brain and my love for the character. The GA which is mainly there for the flash and the feats will probably feel different.

 

[Tacit Ronin]

Sorry Lobster, that Dalton comparison is a headscratcher. Bale was, as you yourself have said, not the most lauded part of his monumentally successful trilogy. Dalton is now considered the best part of a duology that was at its release a mild success at best, and a near flop at worst. They are not comparable.

I think of Bale more like Roger Moore. While not up to the level of Connery (Keaton for Bale), he did make the role into his very own, for better or worse, and defined a generation. He has his fans and haters, but will be remembered.

 

[BatLobster]

Fair enough Tacit. I didn't mean it as a 1 to 1 analogy, but then again I don't think Moore is necessarily any more accurate because he is also associated with camp and a long tenure that saw the downturn of the series into self-parody, whereas Bale was a serious take that did 3 movies and was done. My Dalton comparison was mainly coming from a place of him being a "gritty reboot" after Moore, but not being too many people's favorite. I see your point with them both having fans and haters and defining a generation though.

To be honest I think most of the Bond/Batman actor analogies can fall apart, depending on how you're looking at it.

 

[Tacit Ronin]

The GA which is mainly there for the flash and the feats will probably feel different.

Will they? I haven't seen the GA go head over heels for any Snyder superhero movie yet. The obsessive purist fanboys seem to be more intoxicated by Snyder's talents. Whether the sinews of Batman's suit lines up with the comic book version is a matter more personal to the fanboys then the GA, who just want to be entertained.

 

[The Batman]

I think the comparison between Bale and Moore is just as, if not more of a headscratcher than the one between Bale and Dalton. If there's a Batman equivalent to Moore, its probably Adam West, and Bale is definitely the Daniel Craig of the Batman franchise, even if he might not get the appreciation he deserves.

And while Dalton may be beloved by die hard Bond fans, I doubt the GA feels the same way. There really is no Batman equivalent of Timothy Dalton.

 

[Tacit Ronin]

Bale is definitely the Daniel Craig of the Batman franchise

But Craig gets a lot more praise for his role then Bale. He was considered the best part of the mediocre QOS (echoes of Dalton), while receiving a best actor BAFTA nomination for Casino Royale.

My comparison to Bale was more in regards to his place in the heritage of cinematic Batman. Like Moore, Bale made the role and defined a generation. Like Moore, he is liked but also hated and ridiculed. But Moore can be compared to Adam West as well. It's like Lobs said, these comparisons are easily broken down.

 

[BatLobster]

I think the thing is, Bale "in theory" should've been the Daniel Craig of the franchise...but Affleck is in a position where he can probably have that mantle, just in terms of being the most popular 'badass/modern' incarnation of the character, if he does well. This also has to do with how quickly this reboot is coming out on the heels of the last version.

However, I see The Batman's point too in that Craig's version was "back to basics" and explored the origins of the character where he had more of an arc. Ironically Batman Begins influenced the direction of the latest era of Bond, so that's a fair comparison. But ultimately, yeah, there are lots of comparisons to be made and none fit 100%. But I guess it's fun to try.

 

[The Joker]

I think of Bale more like Roger Moore. While not up to the level of Connery (Keaton for Bale)

No way. Bale is a lot more praised for the role than Keaton ever was. One of the most common criticisms against Keaton was he was always overshadowed in his movies by the villains.

 

[The Batman]

But Craig gets a lot more praise for his role then Bale.

Bale is definitely the Daniel Craig of the Batman franchise, even if he might not get the appreciation he deserves.

While Bale may not have the same level of respect as Craig, both have the same place in the history of their respective franchises. Both were the first actors to play rebooted versions of their respective characters. Both represent their respective characters entering a more gritty, realistic world. Both played those characters as more vulnerable than the actors that came before them.

 

[Tacit Ronin]

One of the most common criticisms against Keaton was he was always overshadowed in his movies by the villains.

Wasn't that a common criticism of TDK as well?

No way. Bale is a lot more praised for the role than Keaton ever was

At first? I suppose so. Bale never got the hate pre-casting that Keaton got. And his first his first go-around was well received. But starting with TDK, the voice started to overshadow his performance, which later morphed into disparaging the entire performance.

It was at that time that Keaton-love started to rebuild. Nowadays, I see a 60:40 split favoring Keaton online.

 

[The Joker]

Wasn't that a common criticism of TDK as well?

Only among a minority handful of fanboys. The critics and audiences didn't slate the movie for it.

And in comparison, even if they did, that would be for one movie out of three. Whereas with Keaton it was for both.

At first? I suppose so. Bale never got the hate pre-casting that Keaton got. And his first his first go-around was well received. But starting with TDK, the voice started to overshadow his performance, which later morphed into disparaging the entire performance.

Nonsense. The voice never over shadowed the performance. A common criticism yes, but it never over shadowed the performance. Ever. Bale was always lauded for his deep and soulful performances.

It was at that time that Keaton-love started to rebuild. Nowadays, I see a 60:40 split favoring Keaton online.

I don't know what websites you've been reading, but guaranteed that is no consensus. Keaton has a loyal strong fan base, and he deserves it, but it doesn't dwarf Bale's.

 

[The Batman]

I have a feeling that any dislike of Bale is overblown. He is definitely not divisive in the same way Roger Moore's James Bond is online.

 

[Shikamaru]

Will they? I haven't seen the GA go head over heels for any Snyder superhero movie yet. The obsessive purist fanboys seem to be more intoxicated by Snyder's talents. Whether the sinews of Batman's suit lines up with the comic book version is a matter more personal to the fanboys then the GA, who just want to be entertained.

From my experience, too many people fall for the old style-over-substance trick. They assume that just because something looks cooler or more accurate on a surface level, then it must be so.

That's not to say I expect much from people's responses to BvS (I expect something akin to MOS), but I suspect Bats in particular will have that going for him even if the film as a whole doesn't.

 

[Tacit Ronin]

Only among a minority handful of fanboys. The critics didn't slay the movie for it.

I was never talking about critics in the first place. I dunno about the others, but I was really talking about the fanboys and the GA (though the latter is hard to gauge).

Rubbish. The voice never over shadowed the performance. A common criticism yes, but it never over shadowed the performance. Ever.

Look at those parody videos on youtube that are dated slightly after TDK's release. And, frankly, it's mostly in this board that I see any praise for Bale, any other board is complaining about how Bale was bland or his voice was bad.

I don't know what websites you've been reading, but guaranteed that is no consensus.

It just seems that way to me. I haven't got any concrete numbers. Maybe the haters sing louder, giving way to that perception? I dunno.

 

[Shikamaru]

I think what makes Bale seem divisive is the "quietness" he seems to get in comparison with other actors playing other superheroes. No Batman actor seems to be on pop culture's collective mind as frequently as someone like Reeve, or Downey, or Jackman, or even Evans/Hemsworth.

 

[Tacit Ronin]

From my experience, too many people fall for the old style-over-substance trick. They assume that just because something looks cooler or more accurate on a surface level, then it must be so.

Like the fans of ASM? "Oh he quips, he must be more Spidey than Tobey!". Never mind the fact that he is assaulting and harrassing a dude in a very aggressive way.

 

[The Joker]

I was never talking about critics in the first place. I dunno about the others, but I was really talking about the fanboys and the GA (though the latter is hard to gauge).

Fanboys is the only one you're gauging there.

Look at those parody videos on youtube that are dated slightly after TDK's release.

Yeah so? Parody videos are made about movies all the time. Even about things that are not criticized in the movie. You're talking like there's hundreds of them specifically made against the Bat voice.

And, frankly, it's mostly in this board that I see any praise for Bale, any other board is complaining about how Bale was bland or his voice was bad.

Again I don't know what websites you read, but no way is that any kind of consensus.

It just seems that way to me. I haven't got any concrete numbers. Maybe the haters sing louder, giving way to that perception? I dunno.

You must be seeing a loud minority.

Look at it this way; if the complaints against the Bat voice were so significant, then WB and Nolan would have corrected the problem for TDKR. If it was significantly killing the performance of the leading character, there's no way they would ignore it. I mean look at what they did for the Bane prologue after they showed it to a test audience.

 

[Shikamaru]

Like the fans of ASM? "Oh he quips, he must be more Spidey than Tobey!". Never mind the fact that he is assaulting and harrassing a dude in a very aggressive way.

In that instance, I would argue he was more Spidey than Tobey, but that's for another thread.