The Dark Knight Rises The TDKR General Discussion Thread - - - - - - Part 155

[ThePhantasm]

Sorry to poop on your party folks. I'll pop back over to the BvS boards and those weirdo fawning types, and let you guys get back to it.

 

[The Batman]

LOL, what an overreaction. Typical.

 

[shauner111]

At the risk of sounding pretentious (so be it)...

You have Christopher Nolan and Christian Bale teaming up. Then you have Zack Snyder and Ben Affleck teaming up. I see a huge gap. I naturally expect iffy directing and acting when i see the names Snyder/Affleck in the same sentence. But i also think of pretty visuals, comic book accuracy. That's a good thing (depending on how it's executed).

Nolan/Bale however..

You may not get or expect great comic book visuals or accuracy. But you can go into it expecting talent to be used correctly. You can feel confident about performance, direction. I feel more confidence when i see David Ayer and Jared Leto/Ben Affleck/Will Smith/Margot Robbie in the same sentence. I feel more confidence in Affleck when i see that he could be starring in a film that he's directing himself, plus the addition of Jared Leto and Margot Robbie. So there should be room for some negativity when discussing the new Bats.

 

[ThePhantasm]

LOL, what an overreaction. Typical.

What overreaction? I'm being serious. I only meant to register my disagreement, not start a whole debate and derail your fun. Lawd knows I enjoy snark-analysis of superhero stuff as much as the next guy, even if I think you're nitpicking in this instance.

Man, I really must rub you guys the wrong way.

 

[The Joker]

This whole talk about Batfleck's facial acting is oddly refreshing. It's a change from people constantly fawning over his suit and how he looks in it.

That doesn't surprise me. I bet that's because you can't even voice any criticism over it without being pounced on by a rabid pack of fanboys on the BvsS boards.

You can get the idea by looking at Affleck's résumé in general. He's definitely come a long way since the Gigli and Daredevil years but I still find him adequate at best. And that's only when good directors like Fincher or himself are behind cameras. Snyder usually delivers wooden performances in his movies so I don't expect much from BvS. Though I don't expect him to be bad either. Just nothing special in terms of acting from what we've known and seen so far.

And yeah, I think people praising him when they've basically seen only a glimpse of him in character are even worse than the ones who were trashing him like he was the worst choice ever with almost zero information.

I agree completely

 

[The Batman]

That doesn't surprise me. I bet that's because you can't even voice any criticism over it without being pounced on by a rabid pack of fanboys on the BvsS boards.

Yup...but they'll drag Christian Bale's Batman almost any chance they get.

To be fair, I was pleasantly surprised when I said that Batfleck's outfit wasn't my ideal Batoutfit, and I wasn't raked over the coals for it.

 

[Victarion]

Affleck's Batman looks like an old guy that used to be a tank in his prime. As he should for someone who's dealing with superpowered rogues. What little I've seen looks alright. Unless we've had more footage since the trailer, all we have for his emoting is that scene where he's got that dead stare. It might just be harder for Affleck to do emotion right through all that face fat.

Reek needs your assistance in the death matches! You once knew him as Cory. He was in the OG 'Tusi.

 

[BatLobster]

Lol, I didn't realize what I'd unleash by pointing out that shot. I specifically mentioned in here rather than there because I'm not looking to ruffle feathers over there. People are pumped for Batfleck, that's great. I think it's pretty harmless to bring up this stuff in here. It's nice to have a few like-minded Bat-fans here who are willing to be a bit more objective and aren't so emotionally invested in Batfleck already that they're afraid of any little potential criticism.

Look, I'm not even saying it's "bad acting". But in general, intensity is just not something I think he does well without it seeming a little cheesy. Whereas Bale oozes intensity and darkness very organically. He's got a natural edge to him. It's a very obvious difference between the two actors, in general.

It's not just that Bale is a better actor (of course he is), it's just that I think so much time is spent fawning over Affleck's hair, scruff, celft chin, etc. and the fact that he looks like the default comic book drawing of Bruce, that people seem to brush aside the most important factor for film (that the comics DON'T capture)- the eyes. That is where guys like Bale and Keaton just had it. That is why Keaton, no matter how "wrong" he looked physically, WAS Bruce/Batman. You looked in his eyes, and you believed it. 100%. Bale had it too, and the fact that he looked a lot more like the traditional Bruce Wayne was just icing on the cake.

Here's the thing too. Personally, I feel spoiled by Bale's portrayal of Bruce Wayne. Affleck can likely pull off a better Batman, I'm realistic about that. And he will very likely deliverable a serviceable Bruce, but the truth is "serviceable" or even "good" still very well might feel like a step down when I've still got an incredible, nuanced, all-around soulful body of work from Christian Bale as Bruce Wayne fresh in my head.

And Phantasm I don't mind you disagreeing and calling us out for over-analyzing one shot. Even though I think we have solid reason to believe that Affleck's acting isn't gonna blow anyone away anytime soon, it's a fair point. I like that things are generally mellow in here these days, but a little dissent once in a while is healthy- keeps this from being a constant Nolan circle-jerk. (btw- sorry my PM inbox was full, voted for you in your Deathmatch)

 

[shauner111]

Here's the thing. Keaton doesn't really feel like Bruce to me until he's sitting alone at home. The eyes tell the story. And that's when i believe he's Bruce. The writing for Bruce, his look as Bruce, the way he acted with other people, it doesn't make me think of the character at all. But it's in the eyes, i agree. Which is why he was a good Batman. His voice was good as well.

Kilmer looked more like Bruce than Keaton, even though it's not that close to the character really. But i could never buy him as Bruce completely. Keaton had an edge to him.

Clooney did nothing for me all around.

Bale had it in the eyes. He always felt like Batman, like Bruce Wayne. The only difference was he was never 40 something active Batman. He had a different suit compared to Affleck's. He doesn't have his height and build either.

Affleck has all the visuals checked. But i don't see it in his eyes either. Im afraid of a hollow Bruce. He'll act sad, angry, depressed, focused because that's what's written in the script. He'll look perfect as Bruce/Bats. Nerds will have orgasms by the minute. He'll do his thing as public Bruce and it'll work, even though it will feel the same as youtubing a Ben interview or a red carpet event. Then the thing i don't want to see, is Bruce in the batcave with or without Alfred by his side....and i feel nothing from him. I dont want him to deliver lines poorly, or look like he's on Affleck-Auto-Pilot. He goes for anger or sad, and i don't buy it.

This Batman especially, calls for an angrier Batman than ever before. I need to see the intensity in his eyes. Brolin was perhaps the better choice for this character but Affleck will create more buzz because of how he looks.

 

[Tacit Ronin]

That doesn't surprise me. I bet that's because you can't even voice any criticism over it without being pounced on by a rabid pack of fanboys on the BvsS boards.

Tell me about it. I once joked, joked about Affleck's Batears looking like someone cut them out diagonally, because that's what the bat ears on the armored suit look like from the profile. And I got responses as if I've insulted their mothers or something. Even got a pm from someone 'educating' me on the validity of the ears size.

 

[Deadshot]

Tell me about it. I once joked, joked about Affleck's Batears looking like someone cut them out diagonally, because that's what the bat ears on the armored suit look like from the profile. And I got responses as if I've insulted their mothers or something. Even got a pm from someone 'educating' me on the validity of the ears size.

Did he tell you small ears are more practical?

 

[titansupes]

... Alright, I'll weigh in.

-- The shot of BvS Bruce with the newspaper: Yeah, it looks forced. IMO, it's because - as it's presented in the trailer (may well be different in the movie) - it feels like a 0-100 reaction. Most people receiving that newspaper would be confused/scared and it comes out as anger (if that makes sense), but here it's straight into full blown anger face, and it doesn't come out great because, as said, Affleck doesn't have that naturally in his eyes/expression. It looks like he has to bulge his eyes and tense the **** out of his face. So all those factors combine to make it look like over acting.

But! The shot of him with the little girl looks perfect. Because that's a situation in which you can buy such a heightened reaction-- Super aliens make their existance known, their battle destroys a good portion of a city, thousands of people dying around you including your own employees, you're emotions and adrenaline are going nuts as you run into it all to try and help... and a crying little child in the wake of it all who probably can't find her parents... Which has a particular significance because - You're Batman. I completely buy that moment from him.

-- I'm really, really looking forward to BvS (my boys together for the first time and looking amazing, how could I not be?!) but yeah, after feeling burned by MoS, I've got a lot of reservations. And while I really like (almost) all the regulars on those boards... Man, you really can't say much over there. Sometimes it's better than others, but... I remember once a couple of posters and I said something like "Man, what a great Batsuit! So good! The only thing I'd change would be making the mouth opening a little square-er, the current shape isn't the most flattering to Batfleck's face"-- And HOLY ****, SO many of the regulars coming at us with things like "Oh my god, how dare you?! Some haters will do anything to bring this movie down! Go back to watching the Marvel/Donner/Nolan movies!"

Especially try being a Nolan fan over there. Bah gawd. You'd think he made B&R2 rather than three of the most successful and acclaimed CBM's ever.

-- @ Shauner, sounds like you have more of a problem with Snyder than with Affleck to me?

-- Yeah, Bale's a better actor than Affleck in general. I think you'd have a very hard time finding anyone to dispute that. However, I think too much is being made over Affleck's perceived lack of acting talent - the man can act. Look at Hollywoodland, The Town, Argo, The Company Men etc etc. I still haven't even seen Gone Girl myself, but I hear good things. And I luuuuuvv his delivery and expression with the "How many good guys are left?" lines.

 

[BatLobster]

Just caught a bit of TDKR on TNT. Been a while since I've watched it. I mostly had it mute cause my girlfriend was sleeping, but just a gorgeous, immense movie to look at. And Bale friggin' rocks it. Easily my favorite performance of his in the trilogy. I was also satisfied that they went to commercial with the fade to black shot of Selina after Bane breaks Batman. I remember when I first saw the movie, that moment just stood out as the most perfect commercial break point ever, lol.

... Alright, I'll weigh in.

-- The shot of BvS Bruce with the newspaper: Yeah, it looks forced. IMO, it's because - as it's presented in the trailer (may well be different in the movie) - it feels like a 0-100 reaction. Most people receiving that newspaper would be confused/scared and it comes out as anger (if that makes sense), but here it's straight into full blown anger face, and it doesn't come out great because, as said, Affleck doesn't have that naturally in his eyes/expression. It looks like he has to bulge his eyes and tense the **** out of his face. So all those factors combine to make it look like over acting.

But! The shot of him with the little girl looks perfect. Because that's a situation in which you can buy such a heightened reaction-- Super aliens make their existance known, their battle destroys a good portion of a city, thousands of people dying around you including your own employees, you're emotions and adrenaline are going nuts as you run into it all to try and help... and a crying little child in the wake of it all who probably can't find her parents... Which has a particular significance because - You're Batman. I completely buy that moment from him.

-- I'm really, really looking forward to BvS (my boys together for the first time and looking amazing, how could I not be?!) but yeah, after feeling burned by MoS, I've got a lot of reservations. And while I really like (almost) all the regulars on those boards... Man, you really can't say much over there. Sometimes it's better than others, but... I remember once a couple of posters and I said something like "Man, what a great Batsuit! So good! The only thing I'd change would be making the mouth opening a little square-er, the current shape isn't the most flattering to Batfleck's face"-- And HOLY ****, SO many of the regulars coming at us with things like "Oh my god, how dare you?! Some haters will do anything to bring this movie down! Go back to watching the Marvel/Donner/Nolan movies!"

Especially try being a Nolan fan over there. Bah gawd. You'd think he made B&R2 rather than three of the most successful and acclaimed CBM's ever.

-- @ Shauner, sounds like you have more of a problem with Snyder than with Affleck to me?

-- Yeah, Bale's a better actor than Affleck in general. I think you'd have a very hard time finding anyone to dispute that. However, I think too much is being made over Affleck's perceived lack of acting talent - the man can act. Look at Hollywoodland, The Town, Argo, The Company Men etc etc. I still haven't even seen Gone Girl myself, but I hear good things. And I luuuuuvv his delivery and expression with the "How many good guys are left?" lines.

Fair post, good sir.

You might've sold me a bit on the shot with the little girl. To me it still looks a bit forced, and I can't help but imagine how Bale might be able to elevate a moment like that just by being able to emote better with his eyes. I know at some point it will just be pointless to keep comparing, but sometimes it's hard not to with something great so fresh in your head. And the thing is, I'm saying Affleck is doing a bad job or phoning it in or anything. I believe in that shot that he is 100% committed to the moment and feeling it. It's just that I don't know if certain things read as well off his face. That make sense? That said, I definitely do like that shot more than the newspaper one, and you perfectly summed up why the moment as written is a very dark moment for Bruce Wayne.

 

[Brother Jack]

The bigger issue I had with that newspaper bit is the implication that Joker knows Bruce is Batman. I ain't into that.

 

[shauner111]

I think it's Lex not Joker. I wouldn't like that either if it was Mistah J. I believe we're made to think that it's Joker because they showed Robins suit with Jokers writing in the same trailer. Could it be Lex who knows who he is like early rumors suggested, and writing it in a way so Bruce thinks it's Joker?

And yes Titansupes, i do have a problem with Snyder more than Affleck. Love the guy but i don't like the way he ends his movies. Among other things.

 

[Ryan]

Its kind of interesting and I'm wondering if having bale for the last series of batfilms caused all this preoccupation with whether Affleck can act or not, or whether he's a great actor. Surely the guy can 'act' with all the movies he's appeared in over the years. Is he a great actor? I'm not so sure I'd personally consider him this generation's brando, however, I don't think that doesn't mean he can't do a decent job of playing batman. I'm not biggest fan of Affleck in general, but I'm still willing to give him a shot.
Also I don't know if its the bale factor that has so many people concerned whether the person playing batman can 'act'. There didn't seem to be as much concern for Gal Gadot and whether she could act or even Cavill when he was signed on as superman (who I think did a fine job by the way). Maybe we all just expect more from Batman.

 

[AnneFan]

Its kind of interesting and I'm wondering if having bale for the last series of batfilms caused all this preoccupation with whether Affleck can act or not, or whether he's a great actor. Surely the guy can 'act' with all the movies he's appeared in over the years. Is he a great actor? I'm not so sure I'd personally consider him this generation's brando, however, I don't think that doesn't mean he can't do a decent job of playing batman. I'm not biggest fan of Affleck in general, but I'm still willing to give him a shot.

I think Affleck has what it takes to succeed. I'm really interested and excited to see how he goes. And the new film in general.

 

[Tacit Ronin]

Since we are voicing criticism at elements of BvS, I have one of my own. I admit that this one might even anger those who are not even fond of BvS to any degree.

It's this shot.

Spoiler

Yup. But that shot is perfect you say. I say it's conceptually perfect. But the fact that it's CG takes a lot away for me. Couldn't that shot have been achieved practically? Surely leaping away from a position to another is doable no? I can't look past the rubbery texture of Bats' movement. You can say that it's not finished, but I say that this rubbery quality in CG movement cannot (yet) be fixed, no matter how long they work on it. It exists even on the best CG achievements.

If you showed that shot to someone who had no idea that it was from BvS would think it's from the Arkham games.

 

[shauner111]

Its kind of interesting and I'm wondering if having bale for the last series of batfilms caused all this preoccupation with whether Affleck can act or not, or whether he's a great actor. Surely the guy can 'act' with all the movies he's appeared in over the years. Is he a great actor? I'm not so sure I'd personally consider him this generation's brando, however, I don't think that doesn't mean he can't do a decent job of playing batman. I'm not biggest fan of Affleck in general, but I'm still willing to give him a shot.
Also I don't know if its the bale factor that has so many people concerned whether the person playing batman can 'act'. There didn't seem to be as much concern for Gal Gadot and whether she could act or even Cavill when he was signed on as superman (who I think did a fine job by the way). Maybe we all just expect more from Batman.

When Gadot was cast there was a HUGE ruckus over the fact that she's a model turned actress, and from what they saw from her so far, was very mediocre. John Campea going off every week about how she's not a real actress, etc.

 

[shauner111]

Since we are voicing criticism at elements of BvS, I have one of my own. I admit that this one might even anger those who are not even fond of BvS to any degree.

It's this shot.

Spoiler

Yup. But that shot is perfect you say. I say it's conceptually perfect. But the fact that it's CG takes a lot away for me. Couldn't that shot have been achieved practically? Surely leaping away from a position to another is doable no? I can't look past the rubbery texture of Bats' movement. You can say that it's not finished, but I say that this rubbery quality in CG movement cannot (yet) be fixed, no matter how long they work on it. It exists even on the best CG achievements.

If you showed that shot to someone who had no idea that it was from BvS would think it's from the Arkham games.

Dude, i couldn't agree with you more. It looks like a good video game to me. Nothing about that shot made me think of a real actor or a film. It looks cool, but really?? For a movie? Even the shot that wasn't officially released from the first trailer where Bats and Supes are running toward each other, it felt pure CG.

That's why im a little worried for the final act and even the big fight between Supes and Bats. Zack overdoes it.

I bought the Faora fight a little more than the Zod fight at the end of MOS. They should hand out fake, custom paddles for everybody who buys a ticket. So we can act like we're controlling the screen frig.

 

[The Joker]

The bigger issue I had with that newspaper bit is the implication that Joker knows Bruce is Batman. I ain't into that.

Yeah that sucks. It should only be implied but never out right said that Joker knows who Batman is. Joker shouldn't even really care. He doesn't care who Batman is. It's Batman not the guy under the mask who fascinates him.

Speaking of the Joker, the latest full body pic of him is awful. Not only is he going around bare chest showing off those ugly tattoos, but he is also bare foot, and he is wearing a long shiny pimp coat.

It's one of the worst Joker designs ever. Rivaled only by The Batman cartoon version (who was also bare foot). Yet somehow some people are praising the eyesore with comments like the colors are eye popping, and he looks sick etc. He looks like Marilyn Manson dressed as a clown groupie. Then you get the subtle baiting comments from others "I think it's crazy someone could hate this". I think it's more crazy someone could actually appreciate that as a look for the Joker.

Even Batman comic book writers like Grant Morrison have called it a Marilyn Manson look.

Since we are voicing criticism at elements of BvS, I have one of my own. I admit that this one might even anger those who are not even fond of BvS to any degree.

It's this shot.

Spoiler

Yup. But that shot is perfect you say. I say it's conceptually perfect. But the fact that it's CG takes a lot away for me. Couldn't that shot have been achieved practically? Surely leaping away from a position to another is doable no? I can't look past the rubbery texture of Bats' movement. You can say that it's not finished, but I say that this rubbery quality in CG movement cannot (yet) be fixed, no matter how long they work on it. It exists even on the best CG achievements.

If you showed that shot to someone who had no idea that it was from BvS would think it's from the Arkham games.

I hate that kind of laziness. When they just CG a simple shot that could easily be done with practical effects and real actors. One of the great things about Nolan's trilogy is the lack of CGI. In the hands of a lesser director they probably would have CGI'ed the truck flip in TDK instead of actually flipping a truck over like Nolan did.

 

[shauner111]

I don't care for Jokers design, but im used to it by now so it doesn't really bother me. Im more interested in Leto's performance and how he acts with Harley and Bats.

It's a bizarre design for Joker, but as long as it's different and well-written/acted, ill accept it. It's a magazine cover so ill take it with a grain of salt.

 

[The Joker]

I don't care for Jokers design, but im used to it by now so it doesn't really bother me. Im more interested in Leto's performance and how he acts with Harley and Bats.

It's a bizarre design for Joker, but as long as it's different and well-written/acted, ill accept it. It's a magazine cover so ill take it with a grain of salt.

Why would you do that? Heath's magazine covers all reflected his movie look accurately. Save yourself the disappointment of hoping that he might look better in the movie.

 

[BatLobster]

I'm with you guys on that annoying CGI Batman shot.

As I've said to my buddy, we've been seeing Batman fire his grapple gun in live action since 1989, but apparently in 2015 it's a problem to capture that with an actor? That shot completely stands out to me, and now even in the movie where I'm sure it'll look better, I'm going to be completely aware that it's not a real person. I just don't get the reasoning behind it. I mean, it costs way more money to CG something like that, and it simply doesn't look as good and takes weight out of the scene.

The problem is Zack Snyder doesn't seem to know the meaning of too much of a good thing.

 

[shauner111]

Why would you do that? Heath's magazine covers all reflected his movie look accurately. Save yourself the disappointment of hoping that he might look better in the movie.

A man can dream, can't he!?

I'm with you guys on that annoying CGI Batman shot.

As I've said to my buddy, we've been seeing Batman fire his grapple gun in live action since 1989, but apparently in 2015 it's a problem to capture that with an actor? That shot completely stands out to me, and now even in the movie where I'm sure it'll look better, I'm going to be completely aware that it's not a real person. I just don't get the reasoning behind it. I mean, it costs way more money to CG something like that, and it simply doesn't look as good and takes weight out of the scene.

The problem is Zack Snyder doesn't seem to know the meaning of too much of a good thing.

Word.

There's no chance in hell that the final Trinity fight won't be a CG fest.