The Dark Knight Rises The TDKR General Discussion Thread - - - - - - Part 155

[The Shape]

Im not sure if im OK with Dick as the Red Hood. If they have a chance to use Dick Grayson at all as an adult, go for Nightwing. Don't turn Dick into a killer just because it's convenient.

Do the Dick Grayson + Jason Todd story or don't do it at all and just have a world where Joker killed Dick at age 10 or something. Leave it at that.

I'm not really down with subbing in Grayson for Todd in a potential Red Hood storyline, although I suppose I wouldn't necessarily be completely opposed to if it was somehow done right.

I think (and hope) they're going to leave it ambiguous as to which Robin previously died in BvS by never actually naming him, which would leave them open to bring Dick Grayson back into the fold later on in the series and then delve into the history of Jason Todd and his death at the hands of The Joker when the time comes.

 

[JackWhite]

Whaaaaat?!? You hate the look? Oh you must be crazy. How can anyone not appreciate this look is an interpretation of Joker?

That's the kind of moronic response you'd get from some of the fanboys in the Leto thread. That or you're tiresome.

Looking at the Ledger Empire pic side by side with Leto's, it's depressing to see how we've gone from an awesome looking Joker to that eyesore look Leto's sporting.

Are they really digging that picture over on the BvS Forums?

If so -

 

[The Joker]

Are they really digging that picture over on the BvS Forums?

I wouldn't know as I don't visit that cesspool. I'm talking about the Jared Leto thread in the Suicide Squad forum, where you can read laughable attempts at justification like this;

- Joker's a sex symbol
- Joker is sporting his own brand
- Joker looks like a pimp in the comics just because he wore a fedora hat
- It still looks like the Joker
- My personal favorite; just because it's an interpretation of the Joker we shouldn't hate the look. I can't believe someone actually posted that one

There's probably more I missed, but you get to a point where you feel like it kills your brain cells if you keep reading this kind of stuff. Thankfully it's not universal. A lot of people don't care for it, too.

 

[shauner111]

I'm not really down with subbing in Grayson for Todd in a potential Red Hood storyline, although I suppose I wouldn't necessarily be completely opposed to if it was somehow done right.

I think (and hope) they're going to leave it ambiguous as to which Robin previously died in BvS by never actually naming him, which would leave them open to bring Dick Grayson back into the fold later on in the series and then delve into the history of Jason Todd and his death at the hands of The Joker when the time comes.

Not a bad idea.

BTW, i saw this in one of the Bats vs Supes threads, and it got me thinking.

Doesn't it seem like Margot's Harley Quinn and Heath's Joker are made for each other...a lot more than Margot and Jared???

Im sure there's great chemistry between Leto and Robbie and i hope it's awesome but design wise. Leto's Joker on one hand is so slick. That hair, that car, dressing like a pimp, the colors are over the top. Then he has the tats, the grillz...im pretty sure this Joker is the biggest fan of Sons of Anarchy and Night at the Roxbury and wants to attempt a crossover.

But look at Harley. She's gritty, dirty, her clothes are just thrown on without much class, makeup is smudged (remind you of Heath?).

I can actually see this Harley sitting in the same cell with Ledger's Joker, no problem.

 

[The Shape]

Not a bad idea.

BTW, i saw this in one of the Bats vs Supes threads, and it got me thinking.

Doesn't it seem like Margot's Harley Quinn and Heath's Joker are made for each other...a lot more than Margot and Jared???

Im sure there's great chemistry between Leto and Robbie and i hope it's awesome but design wise. Leto's Joker on one hand is so slick. That hair, that car, dressing like a pimp, the colors are over the top. Then he has the tats, the grillz...im pretty sure this Joker is the biggest fan of Sons of Anarchy and Night at the Roxbury and wants to attempt a crossover.

But look at Harley. She's gritty, dirty, her clothes are just thrown on without much class, makeup is smudged (remind you of Heath?).

I can actually see this Harley sitting in the same cell with Ledger's Joker, no problem.

I disagree. That image seems to be after she's been through quite a battle and is roughed up. Overall, I think her regular looks gels with Leto's, especially in the flashback of Harley and Joker in their "prime" when Batman attacks their car.

Someone also said that Ledger's Joker would have been a better visual match for Ben's Batman, to which I also disagree. I think Bale's Batman and Ledger's Joker were the perfect foils for one another.

 

[shauner111]

The only time she looked fancy (kinda?) was in the car with Leto. But every other shot in the trailer makes her look a lot dirtier and careless.

 

[JackWhite]

I wouldn't know as I don't visit that cesspool. I'm talking about the Jared Leto thread in the Suicide Squad forum, where you can read laughable attempts at justification like this;

- Joker's a sex symbol
- Joker is sporting his own brand
- Joker looks like a pimp in the comics just because he wore a fedora hat
- It still looks like the Joker
- My personal favorite; just because it's an interpretation of the Joker we shouldn't hate the look. I can't believe someone actually posted that one

There's probably more I missed, but you get to a point where you feel like it kills your brain cells if you keep reading this kind of stuff. Thankfully it's not universal. A lot of people don't care for it, too. I'd despair for Batman fandom if everyone was embracing that eyesore.

"Madness, as you know, is like gravity...." t:

But yeah, I really can't believe they went so left field with this Joker look. Even when the first up close photo of Heath's Joker surfaced; I didn't think it was bad per say, I just needed to see his whole attire. With Jared's Joker it really is a bad concept through and through.

Brittney Murphy would have been the perfect Harley Quinn for Heath's Joker.

 

[shauner111]

That Empire cover is too flashy though. I refuse to believe it's like that in the film. I dont mind him stepping in a fancy car, with a pretty purple suit. I can it can work in small doses for Joker. If there's a contrast between that and him doing brutal things to people while acting all fancy, then it could work wonders. I believe in Leto as an actor.

It's the tattoo's and grillz that still bug me. Batman knocked his teeth out? OK fine. But he got these tattoo's before Harley so wtf? Mexican cartel? Why is that an inspiration? If Harley did every one herself, i'd be OK with that though. Doesn't seem to be the case, unless she adds to his skin.

 

[Deadshot]

I don't have a problem with change, even if it is extreme. I have a problem with The Joker looking like a colorful version of Marilyn Manson.

Now, having said that, The Joker is, indeed. very extravagant. But if you look at the way he dresses in most comics, you understand that there has always been an effort to perpetuate the clownish persona, that's why he dresses like a clown.

Jared Leto doesn't look like a clown to me. And you can say "oh, there's nothing wrong with doing something different". Yeah, that doesn't automatically make the character suck. But you can still be original without going against the character's true nature. Whether we're talking about the more clownish Joker or the more gangster version of the 40's, i don't see any correlation with the current punk rock look. I've been reading comics for decades and i've never imagined The Joker presenting himself like a rock star looking for attention.

 

[The Shape]

That Empire cover is too flashy though. I refuse to believe it's like that in the film. I dont mind him stepping in a fancy car, with a pretty purple suit. I can it can work in small doses for Joker.

Lol, huh? Small doses? That's The Joker. He's often been portrayed as being flashy, over-the-top, gaudy, and vain.

The grungy, non-flashy Joker from TDK who doesn't care about keeping up his physical appearance isn't necessarily a representation of how the character has been depicted throughout his 75+ year history.

If there's a contrast between that and him doing brutal things to people while acting all fancy, then it could work wonders. I believe in Leto as an actor.

C'mon, we know he's going to be doing all kinds of brutal, crazy ****. It's not as if he's going to be walking the runway, vogue-ing, and dancing in nightclubs.

 

[BatLobster]

The funny thing is, even though Ledger's version was grungier, visually he still just registers more as The Joker to me. I guess it's because he still looks cool in his own Clockwork Orange-y sort of way. It looks all haphazardly thrown together, yet it's all probably very deliberate. Kind of like his actions throughout the movie. Leto's Joker just looks like a guy trying too hard be 'gangsta'. If The Joker in TDK didn't care at all about his looks, he wouldn't have applied a fresh coat of face paint after breaking out of the MCU.

I'm not the type of fan to get all up in arms about aesthetics though. Performance matters most to me in the end. But, just calling a spade a spade- that Empire cover looks really bad.

 

[The Joker]

Oh yeah that's another one to add to the stupid list. Joker is a flashy character by nature so him looking like a Marilyn Manson pimp is ok.

Oh yeah, surprise surprise, they've also been using the early reactions of Ledger's Joker as a crutch. It's like because people disliked his look early on is somehow a vindication to Leto's awful look.

"Madness, as you know, is like gravity...." t:

But yeah, I really can't believe they went so left field with this Joker look. Even when the first up close photo of Heath's Joker surfaced; I didn't think it was bad per say, I just needed to see his whole attire. With Jared's Joker it really is a bad concept through and through.

Brittney Murphy would have been the perfect Harley Quinn for Heath's Joker.

Exactly. Heath's first photo showed nothing but a face close up, which admittedly looked really off by itself. I hated it at the time. Then when we saw the green hair, purple suit etc everything fell into place.

The more we see of Leto's Joker, the worse it gets.

I don't have a problem with change, even if it is extreme. I have a problem with The Joker looking like a colorful version of Marilyn Manson.

Now, having said that, The Joker is, indeed. very extravagant. But if you look at the way he dresses in most comics, you understand that there has always been an effort to perpetuate the clownish persona, that's why he dresses like a clown.

Jared Leto doesn't look like a clown to me. And you can say "oh, there's nothing wrong with doing something different". Yeah, that doesn't automatically make the character suck. But you can still be original without going against the character's true nature. Whether we're talking about the more clownish Joker or the more gangster version of the 40's, i don't see any correlation with the current punk rock look. I've been reading comics for decades and i've never imagined The Joker presenting himself like a rock star looking for attention.

Well said

The "it's something different" argument is one of the worst. You can apply that to every lousy change a CBMs have done. Doesn't make them any better.

 

[The Joker]

The funny thing is, even though Ledger's version was grungier, visually he still just registers more as The Joker to me. I guess it's because he still looks cool in his own Clockwork Orange-y sort of way. It looks all haphazardly thrown together, yet it's all probably very deliberate. Kind of like his actions throughout the movie. Leto's Joker just looks like a guy trying too hard be 'gangsta'.

If The Joker in TDK didn't care at all about his looks, he wouldn't have applied a fresh coat of face paint after breaking out of the MCU.

Exactly. He went for the more grungy gritty look on purpose, because as we heard his henchmen say he wears it like war paint to terrify people.

And as for the suit, "By the way the suit it wasn't cheap. You ought to know you bought it" t:

 

[BatLobster]

And as for the suit, "By the way the suit it wasn't cheap. You ought you know you bought it" t:

Good call, that line crossed my mind too. He definitely takes pride in his looks, in his own twisted way.

 

[Snow Queen]

I wouldn't know as I don't visit that cesspool. I'm talking about the Jared Leto thread in the Suicide Squad forum, where you can read laughable attempts at justification like this;

- Joker's a sex symbol
- Joker is sporting his own brand
- Joker looks like a pimp in the comics just because he wore a fedora hat
- It still looks like the Joker
- My personal favorite; just because it's an interpretation of the Joker we shouldn't hate the look. I can't believe someone actually posted that one

There's probably more I missed, but you get to a point where you feel like it kills your brain cells if you keep reading this kind of stuff. Thankfully it's not universal. A lot of people don't care for it, too. I'd despair for Batman fandom if everyone was embracing that eyesore.

...wait...what?

 

[The Joker]

...wait...what?

I kid you not;

http://forums.superherohype.com/showpost.php?p=32351307&postcount=150

If anyone knows what comics these sex symbol Joker stories are in let me know.

 

[The Shape]

Oh yeah that's another one to add to the stupid list. Joker is a flashy character by nature so him looking like a Marilyn Manson pimp is ok.

We weren't talking about him looking like a "Marilyn Manson pimp", and I wrote a response to someone who said The Joker looks too flashy, specifically.

You don't think it's fair to remark that The Joker is a flashy character when someone suggests that The Joker looking flashy or wearing a fancy suit can only work in small doses?

Oh yeah, surprise surprise, they've also been using the early reactions of Ledger's Joker as a crutch. It's like because people disliked his look early on is somehow a vindication to Leto's awful look.

What crutch? I don't think those remarks have anything to do with vindication, but more so recognizing that Heath Ledger's Joker had a similarly polarizing reaction early on due to the visual changes made to the character, and also seeing humor in the fact that history sometimes repeats itself.

What's wrong with that, really?

 

[The Shape]

The funny thing is, even though Ledger's version was grungier, visually he still just registers more as The Joker to me. I guess it's because he still looks cool in his own Clockwork Orange-y sort of way. It looks all haphazardly thrown together, yet it's all probably very deliberate. Kind of like his actions throughout the movie.

Absolutely.

 

[BatLobster]

I'd just like to state for the record that I was on board with Heath's Joker look from Day 1, lol. I was intrigued by the first picture and was just excited to see what he would look like with the green hair and everything else. One I saw more pics of with his hair and suit, I was fully on board. Never gave two craps about permawhite.

Leto's Joker just strikes me as Joker that would've popped up in the early 00s if they had made a Batman movie then. I am curious as to just how many looks he'll have in the movie though. I'm guessing a bunch.

 

[The Shape]

I was not down with Ledger from that first reveal pic. Like many people, I did not like it at all.

This picture really intrigued me though:

I was never bothered all all of the "He looks like the Crow" comments, because I ****ing love The Crow.

It wasn't long before I was fully on board with Ledger's Joker, though. As I said early today elsewhere, the biggest shock for me was actually the initial casting of Ledger as The Joker. I just didn't get it.

 

[Snow Queen]

I kid you not;

http://forums.superherohype.com/showpost.php?p=32351307&postcount=150

If anyone knows what comics these sex symbol Joker stories are in let me know.

...anyone who finds the serial killing clown a sex symbol probably should be closely monitored.

 

[The Shape]

Also, the lack of perma-white didn't bother me one bit. I remember writing all these long-winded posts back then championing the idea that his facial scars served as a substitute for his "disfiguration" of bleached skin and hair, and that his lack of perma-white skin didn't change a thing about the character.

 

[The Joker]

We weren't talking about him looking like a "Marilyn Manson pimp", and I wrote a response to someone who said The Joker looks too flashy, specifically.

You don't think it's fair to remark that The Joker is a flashy character when someone suggests that The Joker looking flashy or wearing a fancy suit can only work in small doses?

No, because I don't think he's that sort of flashy. There's all different kind of styles of flashy, like there's all different kinds of crazy. It's like someone saying he's crazy so that means he'd do any crazy kind of thing and that would be in character for him just because he's nuts.

What crutch? I don't think those remarks have anything to do with vindication, but more so recognizing that Heath Ledger's Joker had a similarly polarizing reaction early on due to the visual changes made to the character, and also seeing humor in the fact that history sometimes repeats itself.

What's wrong with that, really?

Everything. Every time there's a backlash against some new pic revealed, people instantly bring up Heath's like this is supposed to neutralize or diminish people's dislike of Leto's.

Otherwise why keep bringing it up all the time. I don't think it's even a great comparison because by the time we hit November 2007, before we even saw any footage of Heath in the trailer, people were for the most part won over thanks to that pic Wizard released of him;

http://forums.superherohype.com/showthread.php?t=289997&highlight=wizard+evil

The only thing that kept raging on was the debate of whether he was permawhite or not. Christ that got old. Whereas with Leto we have had lots of pics now, including footage, and people are still polarizing on it.

The most annoying part, apart from the idiotic justifications people make like the ones mentioned above, is some people act toward those who dislike it are either going to call you names like tiresome (you were called that today weren't you I am Knight?), or act like you don't know what you're talking about.

But it's no surprise since it's the same type of crowd of fanboys who we were just previously talking about with the Batfleck suit criticisms. I wonder did anyone get any PMs about the practicality of Joker being barefoot.

 

[BatLobster]

I was not down with Ledger from that first reveal pic. Like many people, I did not like it at all.

This picture really intrigued me though:

I was never bothered all all of the "He looks like the Crow" comments, because I ****ing love The Crow.

It wasn't long before I was fully on board with Ledger's Joker, though. As I said early today elsewhere, the biggest shock for me was actually the initial casting of Ledger as The Joker. I just didn't get it.

That was the pic that really sold me too. He just struck me as a scary version of Cesar Romero there, which I really liked.

There were some blurry set pics at night where he looked kinda Crow-ish, but I never was too worried about those cause I knew it would look different in the movie.

The casting was certainly an eyebrow raiser. But once I saw how much he transformed in Brokeback Mountain, that changed everything for me. You look at the natural charisma he displayed in 10 Things I Hate About You, and then factor in an actor coming into his prime that was clearly hungry to do great work, and all the ingredients were right there. I could've never guessed just how special it would be though, obviously. To this day, I still cannot see Heath Ledger at all in that performance.

 

[The Chris]

Man I miss Heath. In such a short time he was one of the greatest acting talents I'd ever seen. Dude would have had multiple oscars imo.