The Dark Knight Rises The TDKR General Discussion Thread - - - - - - Part 155

[The Shape]

BTAS was on Network TV during a Golden Age of Animation. JLTAS was on a cable station.

Yup. There aren't many (or any) animated superhero solo or team-up shows that received the kind of mainstream popularity that BTAS had back then.

On top of that, Batman's world and villains are just way more iconic. I agree that WB/DC haven't done a great deal to nurture Superman's popularity and relevancy (including many years of simply doing nothing with the movie franchise), but at the end of the day I really think Batman would still be more popular in 2015 regardless of what was happening with Superman. Gotham City, The Batmobile, The Joker, the rogues gallery, the crime/detective aspect mixed with fantasy- just the whole package that comes along with Batman is an extremely tough one to beat. The 60s show laid a lot of the groundwork to make Batman's world and supporting characters more iconic, and then once the 80s came around it was a perfect storm for Batman to become emerge as the top dog for the modern era.

 

[The Batman]

A lot in our pop culture has changed so much in the past 30 years though.

I think after Dark Knight Returns and Batman 89, that genie was sort of out of the bottle. What I mean by that is the idea that Batman was the cooler, darker more interesting character permeated the mainstream and it's been pretty much set that way ever since.

On top of that, Batman's world and villains are just way more iconic. I agree that WB/DC haven't done a great deal to nurture Superman's popularity and relevancy (including many years of simply doing nothing with the movie franchise), but at the end of the day I really think Batman would still be more popular in 2015 regardless of what was happening with Superman. Gotham City, The Batmobile, The Joker, the rogues gallery, the crime/detective aspect mixed with fantasy- just the whole package that comes along with Batman is an extremely tough one to beat, especially in a world where writers are given license to take the material seriously. The 60s show laid a lot of the groundwork to make Batman's world and supporting characters more iconic, and then once the 80s came around it was a perfect storm for Batman to become emerge as the top dog for the modern era.

This is not to say there hasn't been a ton of truly great Superman content in the comics over the past 30 years, but I just think from a mainstream perspective...Batman just has too much really cool stuff going for him on a very primal level for Supes to compete.

I just checked the BO for both STM and B89. Adjusted for inflation, the B89 gross is actually higher than STM. So ultimately, I agree with what you're saying.

 

[Tacit Ronin]

I am sure Superman would be a lot more popular than he is right now if the people in charge of DC and the writers commissioned to write him understood the character like Morrison or Mark Waid.

 

[The Batman]

I feel the exact same way.

Even Mark Waid has talked about how there are people working at WB who don't necessarily want to work on the character.

Superman right now feels like a distant second to Batman when he could potentially still be the 1B to Batman's 1A. Building up other characters, especially the former flagship character, only helps DC's brand overall.

 

[The Shape]

And I actually feel like BvS is only going to help build up Superman's own "brand" and depict him in the way that so many fans want the character to be depicted, when all is said and done.

I mean, the main crux of the film seems to be about what Superman's place in society is and what he really stands for, by showing that he is an incorruptible hero, a true force for good, and someone that should be trusted instead of feared.

 

[BatLobster]

I definitely agree that more can be done to make the popularity gap between them much closer, and BvS could be a step in that direction.

Also, fair point earlier about BTAS and JLA being a faulty comparison due to the networks and exposure levels.

I guess it stands to reason then that BvS and the subsequent Justice League films are going to be the biggest mainstream push we've seen yet for Batman/Superman under one banner. So it's kind of an uncharted territory.

It'll be interesting to see how the solo Batman and Superman franchise progress after all of this.

 

[Tacit Ronin]

And I actually feel like BvS is only going to help build up Superman's own "brand" and depict him in the way that so many fans want the character to be depicted, when all is said and done.

So Superman's brand will be built up in a film where he shares the spotlight with Batman, instead of MOS 2. I enjoy the irony.

 

[shauner111]

I don't think people care about Superman that much these days. I don't think that's EVER going to change. The general audience can give two ****s about him.

 

[The Joker]

Movies like MOS certainly don't help his brand name.

 

[Tacit Ronin]

I don't think people care about Superman that much these days. I don't think that's EVER going to change. The general audience can give two ****s about him.

It's not gonna change because the people in charge of making him appealing to the GP don't know Superman's appeal.

Less tortured brooding emo man. More incorruptible, idealistic man of tomorrow, with a tinge of golden age 'champion of the oppressed'.

 

[Kane52630]

Not only that but the Batman fans fuel the hatred towards Superman.

 

[Tacit Ronin]

It's amazing how well Marvel gets Captain America and how well DC doesn't get Superman.

 

[Decepticonus]

I don't think people care about Superman that much these days. I don't think that's EVER going to change. The general audience can give two ****s about him.

Sad yet true. Too idealistic, too nice, too boy scout, people still "kinda" want the gritty, edgy, anti-hero of the 90's. Superman exists or belongs to a world of black & whites, where good is good and evil is evil - that is I think some people think of the character (more general audience not comic readers) when we live in a more gray world today, nothing is pure & innocent anymore.

It's not gonna change because the people in charge of making him appealing to the GP don't know Superman's appeal.

Less tortured brooding emo man. More incorruptible, idealistic man of tomorrow, with a tinge of golden age 'champion of the oppressed'.

He is not the champion of the oppressed of the Golden Age today though. I liked Morrison brought some of it in New 52 Action Comics but it doesn't stick, it seems more that Clark grew up and world view changed or just mellowed out from that.

However, I think they should return to this golden age Superman who was for lack of a better word "socialistic" (we can argue that, I don't care) keep in mind he was created by New Dealer Jews. Anyways, bringing this back today would work with the current state of the top 1% controlling all the wealth, wages staying flat, corrupt campaign finance, we got Trump running, and I can picture Martin Shkreli as a caricature kinda villain like raising drug costs to consumers by 5,500% as he did. Forgive me if I am getting to political or ideological I am just trying to set the tone and frame the picture in how a Golden Age Superman could work.

 

[Tacit Ronin]

Too idealistic, too nice, too boy scout, people still "kinda" want the gritty, edgy, anti-hero of the 90's.

Works fine with Captain America.

 

[Decepticonus]

Works fine with Captain America.

It does your right and.... I got nothing. Maybe because he punched Nazis or even questions authority a bit like in Winter Soldier. Don't get me wrong you are correct, but I have no idea why it works for him and yet not Superman.

 

[Tacit Ronin]

It's very simple, Marvel believes in Cap's goofy sense of idealism. DC does not. You never see Iron Man, Marvel's Batman analogue, ever get a one up on Cap. Never.

Look at the civil war trailer, Cap is making Iron Man look like a *****. Compare that to the BvS trailers, where it's all Batman. All the internalization and motivation are from Batman's pov. We didn't get to hear Cavil speak more than one line before the latest trailer.

This is not a popularity thing. Don't forget IM 3 grossed way more than TWS. This is a character thing. Marvel respects the fact that Cap is MCU's moral center. And they will not let Iron Man outshine him despite being more popular. While in the BvS promos, the one that generates the more money, aka Batman, gets to hog the spotlight.

There is a massive difference in the way WB treats Superman and Marvel treats Cap.

 

[Decepticonus]

It's very simple, Marvel believes in Cap's goofy sense of idealism. DC does not. You never see Iron Man, Marvel's Batman analogue, ever get a one up on Cap. Never.

Look at the civil war trailer, Cap is making Iron Man look like a *****. Compare that to the BvS trailers, where it's all Batman. All the internalization and motivation are from Batman's pov. We didn't get to hear Cavil speak more than one line before the latest trailer.

This is not a popularity thing. Don't forget IM 3 grossed way more than TWS. This is a character thing. Marvel respects the fact that Cap is MCU's moral center. And they will not let Iron Man outshine him despite being more popular. While in the BvS promos, the one that generates the more money, aka Batman, gets to hog the spotlight.

There is a massive difference in the way WB treats Superman and Marvel treats Cap.

OK, so are you saying that the fans in general love the idealized, boy scout Superman or whatever you want to say and think of him. Fans believe in that where DC Comics and WB on the other hand do not care or believe in that at all?

 

[Tacit Ronin]

I can't speak for everybody, but we have seen two somber Superman films back to back now (SR Superman was somber too), and a lot of people aren't buying it. So it doesn't hurt to try a more optimistic, idealized take on the character again given the popularity of MCU's Captain America.

 

[Decepticonus]

I can't speak for everybody, but we have seen two somber Superman films back to back now (SR Superman was somber too), and a lot of people aren't buying it. So it doesn't hurt to try a more optimistic, idealized take on the character again given the popularity of MCU's Captain America.

OK fair enough, you may be on to something.

 

[Batsfan1]

It's very simple, Marvel believes in Cap's goofy sense of idealism. DC does not. You never see Iron Man, Marvel's Batman analogue, ever get a one up on Cap. Never.

Look at the civil war trailer, Cap is making Iron Man look like a *****. Compare that to the BvS trailers, where it's all Batman. All the internalization and motivation are from Batman's pov. We didn't get to hear Cavil speak more than one line before the latest trailer.

This is not a popularity thing. Don't forget IM 3 grossed way more than TWS. This is a character thing. Marvel respects the fact that Cap is MCU's moral center. And they will not let Iron Man outshine him despite being more popular. While in the BvS promos, the one that generates the more money, aka Batman, gets to hog the spotlight.

There is a massive difference in the way WB treats Superman and Marvel treats Cap.

I don't know if I agree. The real big difference here is that Tony and Steve are both human beings and Tony has a pretty decent advantage. He has endless weaponry, is rich, has an armored suit with blasters and flight capabilities and the support of the government. Steve has super steroids and shield. He's pretty much the underdog in this situation. If anyone is Batman here it's Captain America. Even with the dialogue in the trailers Bruce and Steve's words are personal. Superman and Iron Man's are talking about civil liberties and political agendas, while also kinda being kinda hypocrites.

God bless you! God bless everyone!

 

[The Batman]

I think the idea that people don't care about Superman is hyperbole.

Sure, comic book fanboys who shop at hot topic and love grimdark may hate Superman, but let's not forget that the last two Superman movies, while being mediocre as hell, still managed to make 200+ million at the BO. Even while being divisive, MOS' gross was still 600+ million.

Imagine how much a modern Superman film could make if it was actually good.

 

[Tacit Ronin]

I don't know if I agree. The real big difference here is that Tony and Steve are both human beings and Tony has a pretty decent advantage. He has endless weaponry, is rich, has an armored suit with blasters and flight capabilities and the support of the government. Steve has super steroids and shield. He's pretty much the underdog in this situation. If anyone is Batman here it's Captain America. Even with the dialogue in the trailers Bruce and Steve's words are personal. Superman and Iron Man's are talking about civil liberties and political agendas, while also kinda being kinda hypocrites.

God bless you! God bless everyone!

I am not talking about the logistics of power. I am talking about attitudes to portraying their idealistic, noble character. Superman is always seen as archaic goody two shoes that needs to be taken down a peg by a badass like Batman in DC. It started with TDKReturns and continues to this day. Whereas Captain America is always portrayed in the right against the cynicism of Iron Man. Marvel has faith in the goofy idealism of Captain America. They wear it proudly, while DC almost seems ashamed of it.

 

[Brother Jack]

I really wish they (meaning the heads of story for the DCCU) had concentrated on exploring and building Superman prior to fully going into Justice League. I think it would have made a lot more sense to do two or three standalone Superman films and then using that material to springboard the JL, given that Superman is kind of its head. It would have helped to cement the character within the narrative landscape and in the minds of the audience, a lot of whom probably still only associate Superman with Christopher Reeve. Now, I get that BvS seems to be about Superman's impact on the world but with everything having to do with the JL and Luthor and now Doomsday (which presumably means Clark's gonna die?) he appears to be getting second billing again. And he's barely even fully formed.

 

[NateHevens]

Why does everyone think that just because Doomsday showed up, it means Superman will die? The Doomsday shown here is basically a baby... just birthed. He's probably nowhere near his final form. The Doomsday that killed Superman was way evolved.

If they even do a "Death of Superman" plot, I highly doubt it'll be here. This is pure speculation, but along with the origins of Lex and the Justice League, if they are are actually going to do a "Death of Superman" film, what we're seeing here is the origin of Doomsday.

No way Superman "dies" in this film.

It's like people thinking Batman would "die" because they said "Dark Knight Returns" inspired this incarnation of Bruce/Batman. No... he won't.

 

[Brother Jack]

Why does everyone think that just because Doomsday showed up, it means Superman will die? The Doomsday shown here is basically a baby... just birthed. He's probably nowhere near his final form. The Doomsday that killed Superman was way evolved.

Because that's what Doomsday does. His utility as a character is to murder Clark. It would seem odd to include him and not have Superman die.