The Dark Knight Rises The TDKR General Discussion Thread - - - - - - - Part 156

[Pfeiffer-Pfan]

I just don't think they brought him back in the right way. They couldn't get the younger audience to care at all and the older (target) audience simply didn't care enough, or felt they can wait for streaming, etc.

The film didn't lean into the Burton aesthetic in the right way. Seeing Keaton Bats zipping around the desert fighting kryptonians in broad daylight just felt... wrong.

Keaton was good. The material they gave him was subpar. No Way Home is a wonky movie, but to give credit where it's due, they handled Tobey and Andrew with proper care.

 

[antsman41]

They didn’t give him an ace suit, they didn’t shoot him with any eye towards Burton’s vibes… easy. They ****ed up.

 

[BatLobster]

I just don't think they brought him back in the right way. They couldn't get the younger audience to care at all and the older (target) audience simply didn't care enough, or felt they can wait for streaming, etc.

The film didn't lean into the Burton aesthetic in the right way. Seeing Keaton Bats zipping around the desert fighting kryptonians in broad daylight just felt... wrong.

Keaton was good. The material they gave him was subpar. No Way Home is a wonky movie, but to give credit where it's due, they handled Tobey and Andrew with proper care.

It really does make me sad. The return of Keaton could've/should've been so much more. And it's not his fault at all. Really feels like a "careful what you wish for" kinda thing.

It's ironic considering Keaton so famously turned down Batman Forever for being too silly. Because in the end that film probably has way more artistic integrity and vision behind it than The Flash. He must've really been longing to play the role one more time. Because just from reading the script, I'm sure he had to know that this was miles away from anything Tim Burton would've ever envisioned for the character.

Although, credit where its due, I do think the Russia sequence had some solid moments that captured some of the feel.

 

[Pfeiffer-Pfan]

Although, credit where its due, I do think the Russia sequence had some solid moments that captured some of the feel.

The Russia sequence was great, except for the weird ''come on then'' moment he had. Burton's Batman would not do that. He'd stand perfectly still until he whipped a batarang at they guys head or yanked him towards him with the grapple.

I wish Keaton had held out for an ELSEWORLDS project in the DCU that allowed a more thoughtful continuation of his version (With Pfeiffer along for the ride). No way that's ever happening now. Oh well... Batman '89 and Batman Returns are still wonderful and I'm very much of the mindset that Bruce holding Selina's cat is the last we see of the the Burton Batman.

If Bale ever does comes back, it has to be with Nolan and Nolan only.

 

[Nardz937]

Yeah oddly I didn't feel much seeing Keaton's Bats again. Almost everything about the way he was portrayed gave me trouble buying into that it was supposed to be the same version as Burton's. It was an iteration tied to a specific auteur that can't be replicated. Didn't have the sauce, as they say.

 

[Nardz937]

The cinematography in 89 and Returns is gorgeous and how Burton and co. shot Batman specifically was brilliant. There wasn't any sight of that in The Flash unfortunately.

Like if there's one version of Batman that I can think of that I should never see in broad daylight it's Burton's. It was jarring and off-putting.

 

[Pfeiffer-Pfan]

Muschietti needs to learn how to light a Batman cowl before he sets foot on the set of Brave & the Bold.

We needed more of this:

And less of this:

 

[Nardz937]

 

[Gothamsknight]

The cinematography in 89 and Returns is gorgeous and how Burton and co. shot Batman specifically was brilliant. There wasn't any sight of that in The Flash unfortunately.

Like if there's one version of Batman that I can think of that I should never see in broad daylight it's Burton's. It was jarring and off-putting.

Agreed. The more time goes on, the less I like The Flash honestly. It contained so much of what's wrong with some modern CBM's and DC as a whole. And lighting keaton in daylight was a mistake, I agree. It's difficult to have Batman look good in the day time as it is, and it's a testament to Pfister and Nolan that they managed to pull it off so well in TDKR.

 

[BatLobster]

Agreed. The more time goes on, the less I like The Flash honestly. It contained so much of what's wrong with some modern CBM's and DC as a whole. And lighting keaton in daylight was a mistake, I agree. It's difficult to have Batman look good in the day time as it is, and it's a testament to Pfister and Nolan that they managed to pull it off so well in TDKR.

Yup! It's all about the contrast, the framing. Half of him is still in shadow there which still creates a lot of depth and dimension. Then you've got a striking visual with the city hall columns as the backdrop, the flurries of snow adding some mood. Of course it helps that it's actually on location too. Makes a huge difference in selling it as a cinematic image. That's a far cry from what they did in The Flash.

It's one thing to film Batman in the daylight in a city with sunlight pouring in between buildings. It's another thing to shoot Batman in a wide open desert landscape totally bathed in sun. It's QUITE another thing to do that with Michael Keaton's Batman who is so known for a certain aesthetic and plop him in that environment. And then a step beyond that to just have him as a fully CGI character at certain points. Maybe that was the point, to show him outside his natural habitat, but it just didn't work IMO. It felt fake.

 

[Pfeiffer-Pfan]

I really don't mind Batman in daylight. If the story warrants it then it's perfectly fine, but you have to make sure your Bat-suit looks good.

Nolan and Pfister almost always nailed it. Muschietti and Braham are amateurs in comparison.

 

[BatLobster]

I really don't mind Batman in daylight. If the story warrants it then it's perfectly fine, but you have to make sure your Bat-suit looks good.

Nolan and Pfister almost always nailed it. Muschietti and Braham are amateurs in comparison.

Yeah, I agree. I don't think it's a hard rule that it should never be done. After all, Adam West lived in the daylight and those 60s remasters look great.

It's just weird because Braham shot The Suicide Squad, and if there's one thing I have to praise about that movie it's the visuals. So it's not like he's not a very capable cinematographer. I think ultimately when you're shooting something that's supposed to be a big exterior landscape and cheating it all with green screen, it just limits what you can pull off. I think coming up with a more creative environment for the climax that involved sets or an actual location, or something...anything...would've gone a long way. Nothing makes me turn my brain off like an obvious total green screen 3rd act.

 

[Blade Hoarder]

Speaking of, I was watching Kevin smith’s review of the Flash and he claimed the Flash was the first time we saw daylight Batman. Nobody in the place or his partner Marc bothered to correct him. :frown:

 

[Gothamsknight]

Yup! It's all about the contrast, the framing. Half of him is still in shadow there which still creates a lot of depth and dimension. Then you've got a striking visual with the city hall columns as the backdrop, the flurries of snow adding some mood. Of course it helps that it's actually on location too. Makes a huge difference in selling it as a cinematic image. That's a far cry from what they did in The Flash.

It's one thing to film Batman in the daylight in a city with sunlight pouring in between buildings. It's another thing to shoot Batman in a wide open desert landscape totally bathed in sun. It's QUITE another thing to do that with Michael Keaton's Batman who is so known for a certain aesthetic and plop him in that environment. And then a step beyond that to just have him as a fully CGI character at certain points. Maybe that was the point, to show him outside his natural habitat, but it just didn't work IMO. It felt fake.

Yup. You know, to bring up Batgirl again, at least there was an attempt there to replicate the Burton look and it looked quite good from what I can see. I don't know, all the stuff about the flash just sounds like the filmmakers didn't care to nail that feeling down, aside from the sequences at Wayne manor. Remember, it's the same the people who claimed the bad CGI was intentional haha. Just baffling.

 

[Gothamsknight]

Interesting how Nolan mentions the Batmobile reveal from Batman Begins was a scene he would have liked to have shot in IMAX. It got me thinking though, I feel like the lack of imax on that film helps it feel more comforting and personal. Especially in comparison to the super high stakes of TDK and TDKR. Am I the only one that feels this way?

 

[BatLobster]

Interesting how Nolan mentions the Batmobile reveal from Batman Begins was a scene he would have liked to have shot in IMAX. It got me thinking though, I feel like the lack of imax on that film helps it feel more comforting and personal. Especially in comparison to the super high stakes of TDK and TDKR. Am I the only one that feels this way?

That's interesting, never thought of it that way before but I think you're onto something. The IMAX scenes in the sequels have that sense of urgency to them, while Begins' classic 35mm, 2.39:1 look gives it that more traditional, comforting feel. Begins is definitely the most comfort movie of the bunch for me.

 

[OnLeatherWings]

I think Nolan is a more compelling filmmaker with restrictions of some kind.

 

[BatLobster]

Getting into a bit of a Nolan kick in the run-up to Oppenheimer. Rewatched Dunkirk and some of Interstellar.

It occurred to me that, almost every genre Nolan explores, you could argue it's up there with the best in that genre, at least within recent cinematic history. The war film, the science fiction film, the heist film, the superhero film, now most likely the biopic. At least in my opinion, they're all essential entries in those genres (and have no doubt Oppenheimer will be as well).

Regardless of how you feel about him as a filmmaker, it's hard to deny that he's having one of the all-time careers, especially in terms of influence and the cultural impact his films have had. It's really something. Just grateful that guy made 3 Batman movies. It's crazy to think that with everything else he's done, even as he's gone on to explore some very weighty and serious material-- the character he devoted the most time to is Bruce Wayne. Pretty wild and rad to think of it that way. To me it's like the equivalent of if Steven Spielberg had directed Superman movies in the 70s/80s. Which would've been nuts and probably ruled more than we can imagine. Not that Donner didn't do a great job of course, but just sayin'.

 

[SwordOfMorning]

I just don't think they brought him back in the right way. They couldn't get the younger audience to care at all and the older (target) audience simply didn't care enough, or felt they can wait for streaming, etc.

The film didn't lean into the Burton aesthetic in the right way. Seeing Keaton Bats zipping around the desert fighting kryptonians in broad daylight just felt... wrong.

Keaton was good. The material they gave him was subpar. No Way Home is a wonky movie, but to give credit where it's due, they handled Tobey and Andrew with proper care.

This. NWH feels like an actual continuation of those two characters, especially Andrew. Keaton's Batman in The Flash really could've been any older Batman just with a light seasoning of Extra Quirk. I feel like I know literally nothing about what happened to him between Returns and The Flash beyond some ultra vague details about why he isn't Batman anymore.

 

[The Joker]

I haven't seen The Flash and I don't ever intend to because I refuse to watch anything with Miller in it, but does Keaton's Batman make any references to '89 or Returns?

 

[SwordOfMorning]

I haven't seen The Flash and I don't ever intend to because I refuse to watch anything with Miller in it, but does Keaton's Batman make any references to '89 or Returns?

I'm possibly mistaken but I'm pretty confident the answer is no? There are visual Easter eggs and references but never a discussion of events. It is actually pretty funny that the big worry is it'd be a Batman movie guest starring Flash when it wound up being a significant flaw that Batman and Supergirl are wildly underdeveloped as characters.

 

[BatLobster]

I haven't seen The Flash and I don't ever intend to because I refuse to watch anything with Miller in it, but does Keaton's Batman make any references to '89 or Returns?

There are some Easter eggs.

Spoiler

Barry and Barry walk through the "King of the Wicker People" room. The kitchen from 89 makes an appearance. There's also a quick appearance from Joker's laughing bag from his death in '89, young Barry finds it in the cave. There's a callback to the "how much do you weigh?" gag before he uses the grapple gun. Obviously the "I'm Batman" and "Let's get nuts" lines. That's about all I can think of.

But nothing like where Keaton recalls "like that one time I faced off with The Penguin" or anything too specific like that haha.

 

[The Joker]

There are some Easter eggs.

Spoiler

Barry and Barry walk through the "King of the Wicker People" room. The kitchen from 89 makes an appearance. There's also a quick appearance from Joker's laughing bag from his death in '89, young Barry finds it in the cave. There's a callback to the "how much do you weigh?" gag before he uses the grapple gun. Obviously the "I'm Batman" and "Let's get nuts" lines. That's about all I can think of.

But nothing like where Keaton recalls "like that one time I faced off with The Penguin" or anything too specific like that haha.

Ok so really just Batman '89 visual nods. That's a shame.

Using NWH as a comparison the events of Raimi's three movies and the two TASM movies clearly had impact on Tobey and Andrew. Not to mention the villains. They felt just as relevant as Tom Holland's movies to NWH's story. That's how a multi verse story should be if you're going to bring back previous franchise characters.

 

[BatLobster]

Ok so really just Batman '89 visual nods. That's a shame.

Using NWH as a comparison the events of Raimi's three movies and the two TASM movies clearly had impact on Tobey and Andrew. Not to mention the villains. They felt just as relevant as Tom Holland's movies to NWH's story. That's how a multi verse story should be if you're going to bring back previous franchise characters.

No Way Home did it much better, there's no question about it IMO.

 

[Gothamsknight]

Yup. I was actually shocked at how bland and boring The Flash was. No Way Home didn't use the nostalgia bait in a cringe manner, it actually served a purpose and there were actual stakes involved. There's ways to use the nostalgia without it feeling forced like the "let's get nuts" line, and I think No Way Home did it as good as you possibly could have. Going into that movie, I was worried how they'd handle the use of the Raimi characters in particular and everything felt just right, with the exception of some wonky CGI, which was nowhere near as bad as The Flash.