The Dark Knight Rises Why is everyone slamming TDKR?

[Marvolo]

My problem with not mentioning the Joker in TDKR is not the fact that he wasn't mentioned but the reason Nolan gave for why he didn't mention him. Nolan said he didn't want to recast or mention the Joker out of respect for Heath.

I can understand why recasting the Joker would seem disrespectful but how exactly is mentioning the Joker or even implying that a character is talking about the Joker disrespectful in any way? That makes no sense at all.

Does Nolan really think that people watching the movie would say "Wow, Gordon just mentioned the Joker in this scene and this is so disrespectful to Heath! How could he do this?" ? Does he think that Heath's family would somehow be insulted if the Joker was mentioned?

The problem is not that the Joker wasn't mentioned in TDKR. The problem (at least for me because I can't speak for everyone) is that the reason Nolan gave to why he didn't mention the Joker in the movie is just silly and doesn't make sense.

I've always been aggravated and annoyed by the way Nolan acts like he is the last guardian of Heath's legacy and integrity. The Joker lived on after Heath and mentioning the character wouldn't have been disrespectful. Hording up all of his onset stuff, refusing to talk about it in any substantial way, and refusing to do any documentaries regarding his time on set is disrespectful in my opinion. A doc on the man and his accomplishments and hard works on set showcasing him as a person would have been amazing.

 

[DACrowe]

My problem with not mentioning the Joker in TDKR is not the fact that he wasn't mentioned but the reason Nolan gave for why he didn't mention him. Nolan said he didn't want to recast or mention the Joker out of respect for Heath.

I can understand why recasting the Joker would seem disrespectful but how exactly is mentioning the Joker or even implying that a character is talking about the Joker disrespectful in any way? That makes no sense at all.

Does Nolan really think that people watching the movie would say "Wow, Gordon just mentioned the Joker in this scene and this is so disrespectful to Heath! How could he do this?" ? Does he think that Heath's family would somehow be insulted if the Joker was mentioned?

The problem is not that the Joker wasn't mentioned in TDKR. The problem (at least for me because I can't speak for everyone) is that the reason Nolan gave to why he didn't mention the Joker in the movie is just silly and doesn't make sense.

So the problem is...if I get this right...you don't like how Nolan chose to respect Heath Ledger's death?

Well...I got nothing.

It was a personal decision for him and I guess you can take it up with him for being overly precious about a dead friend. I guess.

 

[Tequilla]

What a strange argument to find something disrespectful.

 

[Shikamaru]

I've always been aggravated and annoyed by the way Nolan acts like he is the last guardian of Heath's legacy and integrity. The Joker lived on after Heath and mentioning the character wouldn't have been disrespectful. Hording up all of his onset stuff, refusing to talk about it in any substantial way, and refusing to do any documentaries regarding his time on set is disrespectful in my opinion. A doc on the man and his accomplishments and hard works on set showcasing him as a person would have been amazing.

Well said.

So the problem is...if I get this right...you don't like how Nolan chose to respect Heath Ledger's death?

Well...I got nothing.

It was a personal decision for him and I guess you can take it up with him for being overly precious about a dead friend. I guess.

You missed my point entirely. I specifically said that it didn't bother me that the Joker wasn't mentioned in the movie. Not one bit. It wouldn't have made the movie any better or worse for me.

However, while I don't think it is a problem, I do think Nolan thinking that it is somehow disrespectful to mention the Joker because Heath died is just ridiculous. This is not a criticism towards TDKR but a criticism towards Nolan himself. How exactly would mentioning the Joker be disrespectful to Heath? I don't see how that can be rationalized in any way.

 

[milost]

The Joker lived on after Heath and mentioning the character wouldn't have been disrespectful. Hording up all of his onset stuff, refusing to talk about it in any substantial way, and refusing to do any documentaries regarding his time on set is disrespectful in my opinion. A doc on the man and his accomplishments and hard works on set showcasing him as a person would have been amazing.

Yup, I agree.



Nolan clearly has some hang up about the whole thing but, at the end of the day, he's in charge so he has the final say. He was involved (professionally and emotionally), on the sets, we were not.


I think the whole situation was quite odd. Everyone embraced Ledger's performance as the Joker and held it in high regard. While Ledger was remembered, the character lived on. The film still came out, people were captivated by the character and it didn't feel like "oh, that guy is dead at all". There were still toys, collectibles, merchandising of the Joker. The Joker lived on in the story, as if nothing happened it all.

And then Ledger was honored, even got an Oscar for his performance and rightfully so.



But nah, "too personal". I was one of the folks that was DEFINITELY against recasting the role. Didn't agree with that at all. I felt that would have been just way too much. But I don't think a nod, a nice, clever mention would have been "in bad taste". To just treat it like they're completely forgetting about the character that actually lived through a film and go on after the impact the character made? I never got it, still don't.







And yeah, the lack of any good documentaries is baffling. It was baffling back in 2008/2009 with the home video release. No behind the scenes stuff? No make up tests? Nothing to honor him like a documentary? We did get that small segment of him in the Blu Ray, walking out of the hospital and in the extended shot of the bus, but that was it?

You know there's something up when all the other actors and characters got stuff (like them filming behind the scenes of an actual scene going on) but Ledger as the Joker is completely left out. I'm sure they're sitting on all this stuff somewhere.




How it would be "disrespectful" to give a nod the character or honoring what Ledger had done instead of "not wanting to talk about it" doesn't make sense to me. But to each his own.

 

[DACrowe]

I would not venture to rationalize someone who is acting out of respect for a dead friend.

You find it silly. I find it is hard to judge something like that and a bit silly to do so.

 

[Tequilla]

I would not venture to rationalize someone who is acting out of respect for a dead friend.

You find it silly. I find it is hard to judge something like that and a bit silly to do so.

Yup.

Some of the last posts in this thread is some of the most bizarre stuff i've ever read.

 

[C. Lee]

However, while I don't think it is a problem, I do think Nolan thinking that it is somehow disrespectful to mention the Joker because Heath died is just ridiculous. This is not a criticism towards TDKR but a criticism towards Nolan himself. How exactly would mentioning the Joker be disrespectful to Heath? I don't see how that can be rationalized in any way.

You are complaining about his personal way of dealing with the death of a close friend. People react to death and grief differently. His way is different than yours.

 

[redfirebird2008]

You are complaining about his personal way of dealing with the death of a close friend. People react to death and grief differently. His way is different than yours.

Exactly right. None of us had to sit there editing footage of Heath for months after his death. Nolan had to deal with that and I'm honestly surprised he decided to come back for a third movie based on his comments in 2008.

 

[Shikamaru]

I would not venture to rationalize someone who is acting out of respect for a dead friend.

You find it silly. I find it is hard to judge something like that and a bit silly to do so.

You are complaining about his personal way of dealing with the death of a close friend. People react to death and grief differently. His way is different than yours.

Fair enough then.

 

[Marvolo]

Yup.

Some of the last posts in this thread is some of the most bizarre stuff i've ever read.

I fail to see how it is bizarre. None of us are questioning Nolan's right to grieve. But not doing an "In Memorium", hording his hard work from everyone else, acting as if the man's greatest achievment never existed and writing him out of existence in the story among other things is frustrating. Heath was his friend I get that, but Heath engaged in a form of work that made him a part of more than just Nolan's and his family's life. The man was an amazing actor, and I would love to see more of his hard work. The good hard work he put in on set. Him having a good time on set. Working with the make-up department and other stuff he did. Maybe down the road a round table of the cast and Nolan talkign about the man. At least something honoring him. I don't see how refusing to acknowledge the character he literally wrecked his body to create on screen is in anyway respectful. It lacks rational logic.

 

[Anno_Domini]

Just been discussing this with a fellow Hype member: When she escaped the pit how did young Talia know where to find her father, or even know what the heck he looked like since she was born and raised in the pit all of her life?

Lol, I had never put some thought into this. It doesn't make much sense, does it? I guess...hrm...maybe she knew where he was? But even that doesn't add to it as Talia's mother wouldn't really know...or would she?

Another thing: why the hell would Ra's even believe this skin headed kid is his when he had no idea his wife was even pregnant?

Giving Ra's her mother's name, when she was born...Ra's would be smart enough to connect the dots.

You know what's crazy? Mr. Freeze and Poison Ivy (from Batman and Robin) and their diabolical plan is actually closer to what Ra's would want, and closer to fulfilling his destiny for the world than what Talia and Bane had in mind.


Freeze and Ivy are actually closer to achieving it too and at least Freeze is actually somewhat sympathetic in the end, compared to TDKR Misteh Bane and Miranda Tates.

Don't sound like a smartass please just because you didn't care for TDKR.

And if you want to look at it realistically, Freeze and Poison Ivy even had a better plan than Ra's al Ghul himself in BB. But wait, you only attack TDKR

Anno is going to bust a fuse when he logs on, lol.

Some criticism is understandable. Joker has made some valid points already from what I read. Just because I love a film doesn't mean I'm going to go WesMan on everyone.

We need more of The Guard!

Isn't he on probation or something?

My problem with not mentioning the Joker in TDKR is not the fact that he wasn't mentioned but the reason Nolan gave for why he didn't mention him. Nolan said he didn't want to recast or mention the Joker out of respect for Heath.

I can understand why recasting the Joker would seem disrespectful but how exactly is mentioning the Joker or even implying that a character is talking about the Joker disrespectful in any way? That makes no sense at all.

Does Nolan really think that people watching the movie would say "Wow, Gordon just mentioned the Joker in this scene and this is so disrespectful to Heath! How could he do this?" ? Does he think that Heath's family would somehow be insulted if the Joker was mentioned?

The problem is not that the Joker wasn't mentioned in TDKR. The problem (at least for me because I can't speak for everyone) is that the reason Nolan gave to why he didn't mention the Joker in the movie is just silly and doesn't make sense.

THAT'S what I'm talking about. It's silly to continue to bring up Joker not being mentioned in the film when we know why, but the reason why is somewhat confusing when mentioning Joker would not desecrate the character or Heath Ledger, but it is what it is. It would be nice if Nolan further explained his stance, though.

 

[BatLobster]

I've always been aggravated and annoyed by the way Nolan acts like he is the last guardian of Heath's legacy and integrity. The Joker lived on after Heath and mentioning the character wouldn't have been disrespectful. Hording up all of his onset stuff, refusing to talk about it in any substantial way, and refusing to do any documentaries regarding his time on set is disrespectful in my opinion. A doc on the man and his accomplishments and hard works on set showcasing him as a person would have been amazing.

Nolan had a right to feel protective of Heath. He knew that Heath was tremendously proud of the performance. Heath himself said it was the most fun he ever had playing a role.

Nolan knew there's be a lot of morbid curiosity surrounding the part and he didn't indulge that. Good for him I say. Down the line there will probably be stuff released, but I think it was classy to keep it all under wraps for the time.

And he hasn't refused to talk about it in a substantial way. In recent interviews he's talked about the first time Heath tried on the wardrobe, the first time he did the walk, the voice, etc. and what it was like.

 

[Marvolo]

Nolan had a right to feel protective of Heath. He knew that Heath was tremendously proud of the performance. Heath himself said it was the most fun he ever had playing a role.

Nolan knew there's be a lot of morbid curiosity surrounding the part and he didn't indulge that. Good for him I say. Down the line there will probably be stuff released, but I think it was classy to keep it all under wraps for the time.

And he hasn't refused to talk about it in a substantial way. In recent interviews he's talked about the first time Heath tried on the wardrobe, the first time he did the walk, the voice, etc. and what it was like.

Exactly. Heath was proud of it so show his work. I'm not asking for warts and all that might bring a bad light to the man. Nolan could supervise a documentary of his on set work. Just something. I'm not asking for a lot. And this isn't some morbid curiosity. Back in 2008 it seemed obvious that there would be a doc on him and his work, but I was shocked that it was wasn't on the blu-ray. As time has progressed I became even more shocked by a complete lack of anything regarding Heath's on set work. And when it came out that TDKR would make no mention of the Joker because Nolan felt it was somehow disrespectful to Heath to mention the Joker that is when I got really concerned about the way Nolan was handling it.

 

[Tequilla]

I fail to see how it is bizarre. None of us are questioning Nolan's right to grieve. But not doing an "In Memorium", hording his hard work from everyone else, acting as if the man's greatest achievment never existed and writing him out of existence in the story among other things is frustrating. Heath was his friend I get that, but Heath engaged in a form of work that made him a part of more than just Nolan's and his family's life. The man was an amazing actor, and I would love to see more of his hard work. The good hard work he put in on set. Him having a good time on set. Working with the make-up department and other stuff he did. Maybe down the road a round table of the cast and Nolan talkign about the man. At least something honoring him. I don't see how refusing to acknowledge the character he literally wrecked his body to create on screen is in anyway respectful. It lacks rational logic.

No it doesn't. The only thing to me that lacks rational logic is what you have posting. (last guardian ?!?! ; refusing to do documentaries is disrespectful , etc).

C.Lee said it , you are actually complaining about his personal way of dealing with the death of a close friend. That to me is very bizarre.

He has every right to react to his grief like that.

You might have reacted differently , but you're in no position to point fingers to anyone about their reaction to someone's dead.

 

[Marvolo]

No it doesn't. The only thing to me that lacks rational logic is what you have posting. (last guardian ?!?! ; refusing to do documentaries is disrespectful , etc).

C.Lee said it , you are actually complaining about his personal way of dealing with the death of a close friend. That to me is very bizarre.

He has every right to react to his grief like that.

You might have reacted differently , but you're in no position to point fingers to anyone about their reaction to someone's dead.

Yeah, it does lack ration logic, because mentioning the Joker in TDKR wouldn't disrespect Heath. How can it? Give me a rational way it disrespects him. Nolan may think it would, but that doesn't make it rational. Heath poured his body and soul into the character. Mentioning the character is a form of respect and honors the man. To hide the character and ignore him looks like shame. Why would Nolan be ashamed of the character? I'm not sure he is, but I do wonder if Nolan somehow resents the character for being the role that took it out of Heath and led to the need for sleeping pills that would take his life. I could easily see a loved one resenting the role for what it did to Heath.

 

[Tequilla]

He can simply be uncomfortable . Your persistence in this argument is baffling.

Unless you never dealt with loss and grief , i honestly have no idea what to say to you.

 

[BatLobster]

Nolan never said it would be disrespectful. He just said he wasn't comfortable doing it. And he said he didn't want to create a fictional scenario in which to explain away a character's absence when the audience knows the real reason why he isn't there. Which of course implies he probably would have written a part for The Joker in TDKR if Heath was around.

 

[Marvolo]

Nolan never said it would be disrespectful. He just said he wasn't comfortable doing it. And he said he didn't want to create a fictional scenario in which to explain away a character's absence when the audience knows the real reason why he isn't there. Which of course implies he probably would have written a part for The Joker in TDKR if Heath was around.

I completely understand being uncomfortable, but the part about creating a fictional scenario doesn't make much sense to me. Yeah, we know Heath is dead and that is the real world reason Joker isn't there, but Joker being in Arkham is the in story reason why the character isn't there. It just seems that Nolan can't seperate the fictional character Joker from Heath himself.

He can simply be uncomfortable . Your persistence in this argument is baffling.

Unless you never dealt with loss and grief , i honestly have no idea what to say to you.

I really don't see why continuing an ongoing conversation is baffling. I've dealt with countess family deaths since a young age. I lost 9 family members last year. If there is one thing I know about grief it is that talking about it and celebrating their life is not only healthy but comforting. Actually honoring them is the best way to you know honor them.

 

[Snow Queen]

I think, considering the fact that Nolan had to sit in the editing booth for months watching Heath over and over and over again after his death, he probably avoided mentioning the Joker to avoid bringing up memories. Just another way of coping.

 

[Marvolo]

I think, considering the fact that Nolan had to sit in the editing booth for months watching Heath over and over and over again after his death, he probably avoided mentioning the Joker to avoid bringing up memories. Just another way of coping.

Ok I hadn't even thought about that, and christ almighty that must have been brutal. Ok I'm just gonna shut up now. Ugh I feel like an ass.

 

[BatLobster]

But how would a throw away line about Joker being in Arkham help the story so much? It would just be surpufulous. As soon as you mention his name you're kind of setting up the idea of him factoring into the story, which he doesn't. You're poking everyone in the audience and making them think, "Damn we miss Heath." It was better to just leave him mysterious. His origins are as mysterious as his exit. It works on a story level, and Nolan doesn't have to do something he felt uncomfortable doing.

 

[The Joker]

Lol, I had never put some thought into this. It doesn't make much sense, does it? I guess...hrm...maybe she knew where he was? But even that doesn't add to it as Talia's mother wouldn't really know...or would she?

How could she know? She'd been cut off from the world in a prison pit for years.

Giving Ra's her mother's name, when she was born...Ra's would be smart enough to connect the dots.

The war lord found out about Ra's marrying his daughter and sent him to the pit. Then his wife made a secret deal and took his place in the pit so he could be free. So it wasn't a big secret that Ra's had been married to Mrs. Al Ghul. It wasn't a state guarded secret. Anyone could have found this out. So I still don't see why Ra's would buy the word of some kid who tells him years later that he's her daddy, especially considering he had no idea his wife had been pregnant.

 

[BatLobster]

Maybe he saw a resemblance between Talia and his wife. He may not have known he fathered a child, but surely he'd remember that time he didn't use protection .

 

[Shikamaru]

Why wouldn't he just take a simple DNA test?