Apocalypse X-Men Apocalypse News and Discussion - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 43

[iacobusleo]

I wonder how things would have worked had DOFP been the final film in this trilogy instead. I think it would have been a better way to wrap up this trilogy while bringing it full circle with the OT. I actually would have preferred that. Would have been cool to see this team of X-men established in the 2nd film and have them around for DOFP, considering the major disappointment being that it didnt feature X-men in the past (which ended up being the bulk of the film). I think that progression would have worked out better bc the plot of Apocalypse was anticlimatic after coming off of that which was bigger in scope

I do wonder as well, but one of the things DOFP did well was maintaining a streamlined story while juggling time travel across two timelines. Having Apocalypse's team of X-Men in the past, most of whom have nothing to do with the main plot, would have decreased the quality of the film IMO.

In all honesty, DOFP should have either been the end of the franchise fullstop, or the end of the Xavier-Wolverine-Magneto-Mystique as main characters era. Apocalypse should have kept the focus squarely on the new team with Xavier, Magneto and Mystique as side characters (all of whom having familial connections to the new team).

But hindsight is always 20/20.

 

[GuestStar2004]

DOFP juggled 2 timelines by basically putting the majority on the side with less characters because sometimes less is more.

Now obviously if things had been different and an X-Men team had already been there in the past then we wouldn't have got the same movie either way so there is no saying it would have turned out the same quality wise anyway.

What Apocalypse does do though is set up the new direction without having to depend on the original continuity

 

[EnDz0n3]

Though I enjoyed Apocalypse, I now have a newfound appreciation for DOFP. That was definitely the highlight of the franchise, along with X2. Quality- and boxoffice-wise.

 

[iacobusleo]

Though I enjoyed Apocalypse, I now have a newfound appreciation for DOFP. That was definitely the highlight of the franchise, along with X2. Quality- and boxoffice-wise.

The beauty of DOFP is that it can be seen as a legitimate ending. The only real hanging thread is Mystique fishing Wolverine out of the water, and it's not as if Apocalypse addressed it anyway.

Just watching X1, X2, X3, The Wolverine, FC and DOFP gives us more or less a solid complete story (X3 is the only truly weakest of the bunch if you skip Origins). That's why though I'm disappointed, I'm not too fussed about Apocalypse's quality. The story has already ended for me. It's kinda like reading comic books, where you just pick and choose what works for you and that's your version of the story. XD

 

[carpenter82]

The beauty of DOFP is that it can be seen as a legitimate ending. The only real hanging thread is Mystique fishing Wolverine out of the water, and it's not as if Apocalypse addressed it anyway.

Just watching X1, X2, X3, The Wolverine, FC and DOFP gives us more or less a solid complete story (X3 is the only truly weakest of the bunch if you skip Origins). That's why though I'm disappointed, I'm not too fussed about Apocalypse's quality. The story has already ended for me. It's kinda like reading comic books, where you just pick and choose what works for you and that's your version of the story. XD

Well DOFP is a proper ending for the cast of the original trilogy. But it's also a new beginning for the First Class crew.

 

[Havok83]

Well DOFP is an ending for the cast of the original trilogy. But it's also a new beginning for the First Class crew.

Except it wasnt a beginning as thats what FC was. DOFP ended off more or less putting them in a similar place that they left off with in FC

 

[NotNickFury]

So the Honest Trailer for Apocalypse is out and it said something I've heard many a person who isn't a fan of the X-Men films has said, which is that Deadpool is all that Fox has as far as the X-Men films go. I don't necessarily agree that, but I can see where people are coming from, given the general mixed reception this got compared to First Class and Days of Future Past. I enjoyed all three, for what it's worth, flaws and all, but hey, I'm not the general audience.

 

[GuestStar2004]

Except it wasnt a beginning as thats what FC was. DOFP ended off more or less putting them in a similar place that they left off with in FC

Its the beginning of a new direction basically, if they decide to do the Phoenix saga again that is because of the new direction and not being tied to the OT anymore.

 

[iacobusleo]

Well DOFP is a proper ending for the cast of the original trilogy. But it's also a new beginning for the First Class crew.

The way I think of it, the only purpose of the First Class crew in-narrative is to give the original trilogy a happy ending, if that makes sense. FC was set-up so that we can get DOFP as the climax to the entire franchise.

By the end of DOFP, each main character has gotten an ending.

Xavier - Realizes the importance of having faith in people and not resorting to manipulation and control. He achieves redemption by giving Mystique agency. This not only saves the world, but it also means he would never repeat the same mistake with Jean, which also saves her life and Scott's.

Mystique - The future is completely changed for her. She now is her own woman and has her own agency. She is longer Charles' protected pet sister, nor is she Magneto's mute henchwoman.

Magneto - His transition into the terrorist Magneto is complete, and his friendship with Charles is implied to have ended. He leaves, presumably for years of fighting with Charles and restoring the traditional X-Men status quo.

This is how I rationalise it in my head. XD Watching the movies back to back, it really felt like Wolverine literally woke up from a dream (the past segments of FC and DOFP) to see the happy ending for the entire series.

So the Honest Trailer for Apocalypse is out and it said something I've heard many a person who isn't a fan of the X-Men films has said, which is that Deadpool is all that Fox has as far as the X-Men films go. I don't necessarily agree that, but I can see where people are coming from, given the general mixed reception this got compared to First Class and Days of Future Past. I enjoyed all three, for what it's worth, flaws and all, but hey, I'm not the general audience.

The Honest Trailer was a bit bland IMO. It's recycling things everyone have been saying. Kinda like the movie TBH. Maybe it's just because I've been keeping up with this movie for too long.

 

[Havok83]

The way I think of it, the only purpose of the First Class crew in-narrative is to give the original trilogy a happy ending, if that makes sense. FC was set-up so that we can get DOFP as the climax to the entire franchise.

By the end of DOFP, each main character has gotten an ending.

Xavier - Realizes the importance of having faith in people and not resorting to manipulation and control. He achieves redemption by giving Mystique agency. This not only saves the world, but it also means he would never repeat the same mistake with Jean, which also saves her life and Scott's.

Mystique - The future is completely changed for her. She now is her own woman and has her own agency. She is longer Charles' protected pet sister, nor is she Magneto's mute henchwoman.

Magneto - His transition into the terrorist Magneto is complete, and his friendship with Charles is implied to have ended. He leaves, presumably for years of fighting with Charles and restoring the traditional X-Men status quo.

This is how I rationalise it in my head. XD Watching the movies back to back, it really felt like Wolverine literally woke up from a dream (the past segments of FC and DOFP) to see the happy ending for the entire series.



The Honest Trailer was a bit bland IMO. It's recycling things everyone have been saying. Kinda like the movie TBH. Maybe it's just because I've been keeping up with this movie for too long.

yeah that makes sense. Apocalypse feels like such an odd endcap to the series. As an overall arc, its just weird. DOFP was the climax. XA feels like an unnecesary tale as it never hits the same highs. I really dont think it did anything for the FC characters either. Magneto got some great characterization but this leaves him as pretty much an anti-hero. Outside of him, Mystique, Xavier and Beast arent any better as characters nor are they changed. They effectively recieved their closure as characters in DOFP

XA can primarily be seen as a springboard for the new characters but unfortunately they were underutilized so that kind of falls flat. Scott and Jean somewhat got decent material with what little they had but the rest? Waste

 

[GuestStar2004]

Apocalypse probably wasn't meant to be a end cap for the series.

 

[carpenter82]

The way I think of it, the only purpose of the First Class crew in-narrative is to give the original trilogy a happy ending, if that makes sense. FC was set-up so that we can get DOFP as the climax to the entire franchise.

By the end of DOFP, each main character has gotten an ending.

Xavier - Realizes the importance of having faith in people and not resorting to manipulation and control. He achieves redemption by giving Mystique agency. This not only saves the world, but it also means he would never repeat the same mistake with Jean, which also saves her life and Scott's.

Mystique - The future is completely changed for her. She now is her own woman and has her own agency. She is longer Charles' protected pet sister, nor is she Magneto's mute henchwoman.

Magneto - His transition into the terrorist Magneto is complete, and his friendship with Charles is implied to have ended. He leaves, presumably for years of fighting with Charles and restoring the traditional X-Men status quo.

This is how I rationalise it in my head. XD Watching the movies back to back, it really felt like Wolverine literally woke up from a dream (the past segments of FC and DOFP) to see the happy ending for the entire series.

If the series had stopped at DOFP I don't think it would've been a satisfying ending for Charles, and Mystique. Yes, at the end of DOFP Charles learns an important life lesson. However, I like that the events of DOFP inspire a period of peace between humans and mutants thus Xavier sees no need for a fighting force, and it takes such an extreme threat such as Apocalypse for him to change his mind.

Also, Mystique does decide to not be a cold blooded killer, changing her destiny, but I still would've been curious where she ended up. Personally, her deciding to come back to the mansion to stand side by side with Beast, and Xavier to help form the next class of X-Men was an adequate arc for that character. Xavier even says "There's going be a time, Hank, when we are all together", we get to see that statement come to fruition at the end of Apocalypse.

 

[iacobusleo]

If the series had stopped at DOFP I don't think it would've been a satisfying ending for Charles, and Mystique. Yes, at the end of DOFP Charles learns an important life lesson. However, I like that the events of DOFP inspire a period of peace between humans and mutants thus Xavier sees no need for a fighting force, and it takes such an extreme threat such as Apocalypse for him to change his mind.

Also, Mystique does decide to not be a cold blooded killer, changing her destiny, but I still would've been curious where she ended up. Personally, her deciding to come back to the mansion to stand side by side with Beast, and Xavier to help form the next class of X-Men was an adequate arc for that character. Xavier even says "There's going be a time, Hank, when we are all together", we get to see that statement come to fruition at the end of Apocalypse.

Except we only knew about the period of peace in Apocalypse. Remove Apocalypse, and DOFP would have ended with Magneto bringing a stadium on the White House. Already a perfect justification for humans to start fearing mutants, and Xavier feeling the need to start the X-Men.

I think my rationalization for DOFP as an ending works for me because I don't need every single plot point laid out to me, as long as the major character struggles are resolved. And I think the major character struggles of the entire franchise WERE resolved. Apocalypse had to work to bring in fresh conflict. Hence, the new period of peace to give Charles and Mystique more story. Even the major climax of Apocalypse, Xavier asking Jean to let go, is an extension of what he learnt in DOFP. It's nice to see it onscreen, but could have easily been inferred from the DOFP ending (although to be fair, I doubt most are fans of the movies enough to pay attention to this).

In fact, I'd argue Apocalypse needing to show exactly HOW the X-Men team got started is to its detriment. There's just not much story there because a lot of it was tied up. So the movie is stuck in this halfway point between trying to close up characters who already are played out, and trying but not committing to setting up tons of new characters.

Sidenote, the period of peace is nice and interesting, but Apocalypse does not do anything with it, so it's already kinda a wasted opportunity.

I need to clarify that this does not mean that I think the writers couldn't have come up with new stories for Charles and Mystique, but it just needs more effort, and the writing was simply not up to par.

 

[psylockolussus]

They should have continued the X-Men's story right after where the present-day X-Men ended! Not backtrack by doing another prequel with Magneto/Mystique as two of the leads!

I also agree with the Honest Trailer!

 

[marvelrobbins]

I didn't watch the honest trailer because just hearing it claim deadpool is all fox has pisses me off and seeing it would just upset me more

right now the franchise is spin-off franchise with logan in march and deadpool 2 in 2018 with New mutants and X-force in the works.

and quite honestly the more people bash X-men films,it's not apocalypse i have seen people say with maybe besides first class deadpool is only good X related film,and praise deadpool with saying it's only thing good thing from fox or all X-Men films should be like deadpool that makes my intrest In Deadpool 2 very low.quite honestly at this point Logan is only X related film I am anticipting.

 

[carpenter82]

Side note, the period of peace is nice and interesting, but Apocalypse does not do anything with it, so it's already kinda a wasted opportunity.

It was partially used to show the dichotomy between Xavier, and Mystique. Charles is living comfortably in Westchester without hate, and persecution. Whereas Mystique sees a a more sinister side. Mutants still aren't being treated as equals, as seen at the beginning with what's essentially a dog fight of sorts between Angel, and Nightcrawler.

But I can see where you're coming from, and I'm sorry to hear the film didn't work for you, and seemingly a lot of other people. I didn't like Apocalypse as much as DOFP but I still thought it was pretty good, and for me anyway it tied things up nicely.

 

[carpenter82]

I didn't watch the honest trailer because just hearing it claim deadpool is all fox has pisses me off and seeing it would just upset me more

right now the franchise is spin-off franchise with logan in march and deadpool 2 in 2018 with New mutants and X-force in the works.

and quite honestly the more people bash X-men films,it's not apocalypse i have seen people say with maybe besides first class deadpool is only good X related film,and praise deadpool with saying it's only thing good thing from fox or all X-Men films should be like deadpool that makes my intrest In Deadpool 2 very low.quite honestly at this point Logan is only X related film I am anticipting.

Deadpool was good fun but it's not in the same class as X2, DOFP, or even First Class.

 

[BeholdMe]

In terms of what singer has done with storm in past films he has directed i wouldn't say she was mistreated compared to anyone else so i aint gonna jump on the wagon of him not being a fan so thats why he hasn't given her certain special treatments some storm fans feel she deserves.

In terms of saying they wanted a young halle berry, it could mean they just wanted someone of the same skin color or it could mean they also wanted to find someone as talented as halle berry to play storm.

Just because Singer didn't spent 5 minutes talking about what makes storm an amazing character doesn't really mean all that much.

I don't agree with this statement at all. Yes In past films Storm has done some feats but we never into the mindset of Storm they DIDNT capture the persona and aura that is Storm as they did Wolverine,Prof X and Magneto she was literally just Halle in a white wig so yes her along with some others were mistreated so I disagree there. Storm is a carbon copy of the greatness she should be point blank. Also Berry is a hit or miss for me with roles and as Storm she was never who I wanted just because she dosent capture Storm she is literally just a pretty face so finishing someone as "talented" as Berry I disagree with because it's darker women who would crush this role and bring something to the table with the character if they chose to do that with the character which it seems they aren't trying to do at least with Singer onboard. You can't just ignore how Storm was treated coming from a fan did not realize we didn't even know who she was in Apocalypse unless you were already a fan? It's apparent from the start he had reservations about using Storm.

 

[BeholdMe]

There are a combination of reasons:

1. People are angry that characters important to the X-mythos such as Cyclops and Storm are sidelined in favor of what is thought to be a B-list character in the comics. This must really sting for people since many important characters have never been given their due in the movies.

2. It's cool to hate on Jennifer Lawrence now. The fact that she is an A-list actress who in some people's eyes, is overrated and overexposed, and has expressed little enthusiasm for the franchise, just add fuels to the fire.

3. This is a comic book movie. For fans, status quo is god. A character can't have character development that would take them away from their recognizable comic counterpart otherwise it means that they are being assassinated, regardless if it makes for a good story.

Personally, I think the depth of Jennifer Lawrence's Mystique is closer to the one written by Claremont, in that she is an actual human being with emotions and motivations. Unfortunately, the popular depiction of Mystique now for many people is the sexy, evil for the sake of evil chaotic seductress.

1. Since she is a main character in this timeline this part I'm not upset about it's just when she shares the spotlight with say Storm,Jean and Cyclops and she just completely overshadows them and they get no development that's my problem.

2. People are so quick to say someone just hates JLaw when they just don't like how she represents Mystique as Halle did Storm. I just don't think she is this AMA omg artist the world makes her out to be I don't see it. She dosent deliver as Raven her performance is always lazy to me. Just because someone is a good actress dosent mean they can properly portray every role that's no hate she isn't good in the role to me.

3. Her character development in the movies completely details from her comic counterpart so I don't see why you mean. The comic Mystique is miles better then this watered down movie version, though she is mostly evil in the comics Mystique is just so much more badass and edgy.

 

[DavidHaller]

I personally disagree that Storm was mistreated in the first trilogy. I think she was a very present character in X1, X2 and X3 and had some small but affective scenes. While many of her scenes in X1 have been unfortunately cut out I still think that she had very insightful and emotional scenes to understand the character. I loved the character in X2 . The conversation with Nightcrawler is beautifully done and actually evokes black feminist writers like Audre Lorde: "Sometimes anger can help you survive."

I think what many Storm fans mainly bother is that her characterization has nothing to do with the comic book vesion though. Maybe it is just me but I find her comic book orgin in Africa very primitivist in my eyes and I'm happy that they decided to 'americanize' her and made her less 'tribal queen'. If there would be more screen time for the character they could have used this origin but it cannot be done quickly with a few scenes without falling into a primitivist trap. What I mean is that with limited screen time assimilation works here better than risking racist othering.

---

X-Men Apocalypse on the other hand is a different story and totally lacks resprect to her as a character. She has so many fans and I understand their annoyance and anger. Ethnic minorities in this movie are horribly misshandeled in general. The audio commentary is a great example to see what minority actresses have to endure in a dominantly white environment. Shipp is cast for being pretty while the other young actresses have talent?!?! **** you, Singer! I remember an audio commentary by Oliver Stone about Jennifer Lopez and Claire Danes in U-Turn where exactly the same happens...It is not coincidence but racism!

Singer obvious lacks the insight to deal with racism. For me this shows 'lazy identifcation patterns' of a very privileged white man. He is capable to use the X-Men as a metaphor for sexual minorities but lacks emotional insight to do the same for racial minorities. That's very sad actually and bothers me a lot.

I wished the next X-Men director would be Ava DuVernay!

 

[GuestStar2004]

1. Since she is a main character in this timeline this part I'm not upset about it's just when she shares the spotlight with say Storm,Jean and Cyclops and she just completely overshadows them and they get no development that's my problem.

Thats the thing does she over shadow them or is it just because its jlaw as mystique thats all people can ever think about when she is on screen?

I mean looking at apocalypse how did she overshadow anyone? in terms of screen time she may have had a bit less then tye and sophie.

You can't blame characters for the lack of development in others, it doesn't work that way, it might be easy to think without them all the pieces will fall into place but thats just not how it works, you can sometimes have less and still get more like quicksilvers 10 minutes stand out role in DOFP.

Jlaw gets alot of backlash IMO because of he status in hollywood which some feel is overrated which sadly means everyone obsesses over her now, i mean i see a criticism video with some youtuber with weird colored hair, i can't remember her name but basically she pointed out the whole J law didn't wanna be in make up thing and then she said Jlaw likely demanded comfortable clothing aka the black leather jacket and she followed that with the idea nicholas hoult's was only out of make up because he see his ex gf out of make up and said hey if she ain't in make up i don't wanna be either...

In the end it all comes down to Jlaw whenever possible.

 

[Havok83]

Storm wasnt mistreated; she was underutilized which is a big difference. They didnt damage or ruin her. She ended X3 in a good place. People that got mistreated for sure were Cyclops, Jean and Rogue, all of whom got some sh-tty characterization and awful writing in X3. Its cringeworthy what was done with them. Storm? My only wish is that she was given more to do.

 

[iacobusleo]

1. Since she is a main character in this timeline this part I'm not upset about it's just when she shares the spotlight with say Storm,Jean and Cyclops and she just completely overshadows them and they get no development that's my problem.

Thats the thing does she over shadow them or is it just because its jlaw as mystique thats all people can ever think about when she is on screen?

I mean looking at apocalypse how did she overshadow anyone? in terms of screen time she may have had a bit less then tye and sophie.

This basically. If JLaw's acting is as lazy as you say (a perfectly legit criticism and I agree with it completely for this movie), how exactly can she overshadow anyone?

I respect that you don't like her in the role because of the acting. I understand and agree with it completely. Many people on this board share that view, and I understand where they are coming from.

But a lot of people beyond this forum are hating on her because she's JLaw. She's considered by many to be annoying and overrated, so all eyes are on her, even when she's not very present in the scene. You know how something you hate annoys you even more? For a lot of people, their annoyance with her makes them take notice of her more. It's how you get the Honest Trailers' line 'This is a Mystique movie', when it really really wasn't. The movie wasn't anybody's movie, that's the problem. I had no problems with JLaw until this movie and I barely registered her presence here. She was completely forgettable.

3. Her character development in the movies completely details from her comic counterpart so I don't see why you mean. The comic Mystique is miles better then this watered down movie version, though she is mostly evil in the comics Mystique is just so much more badass and edgy.

In your very first sentence you just affirmed what I said. XD As I said, for comic fans, status quo is god. In the eyes of many, Mystique is evil and so always should be evil. That just limits storytelling potential.

Badass and edgy does not necessarily mean she's a real character with feelings and motivations. OT Mystique was badass and edgy, but was she really a character?

Claremont Comic Mystique is leagues better than movie Mystique not because she's badass and edgy, but because she was badass and edgy IN ADDITION TO being many things: A terrorist, a leader, a loving mother who nevertheless can be quite toxic to her foster daughter, a heavily coded lesbian lover, a survivalist, and an anti-hero who when pressed would work for the greater good (during her tenure with Freedom Force). THAT's a character.

Movie Mystique at least has some of the shades of grey and complicated family dynamics Claremont Mystique had. Modern Mystique is so absurdly one-dimensional and cartoonishly evil that I actually prefer the movie one over her.

 

[Weather Witch]

In your very first sentence you just affirmed what I said. XD As I said, for comic fans, status quo is god. In the eyes of many, Mystique is evil and so always should be evil. That just limits storytelling potential.

Badass and edgy does not necessarily mean she's a real character with feelings and motivations. OT Mystique was badass and edgy, but was she really a character?

Movie Mystique at least has some of the shades of grey and complicated family dynamics Claremont Mystique had. Modern Mystique is so absurdly one-dimensional and cartoonishly evil that I actually prefer the movie one over her.

I agree with all of the above.

 

[carpenter82]

Thats the thing does she over shadow them or is it just because its jlaw as mystique thats all people can ever think about when she is on screen?

When I see comments like "Mystique is killing the X-Men films", I can only assume that this is what's really going on.

Thinking of current superhero franchises, has there been another female character that's been given as much character development as this trilogy's Mystique?