Apocalypse X-Men Apocalypse News and Discussion - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 43

[def28]

Agree to disagree I guess.

This villain seemed very chosen in an attempt to up the ante in destruction and that's about it. They knew he was anticipated, rushed his inclusion and tried to fit a story around him being a one and done villain. Another mistake. It was too early for Apocalypse with where the major X-Men were at as characters and as a team but was also too early for making the best use of Apocalypse himself. This was a perfect crossover villain if they played their cars right.

How is Apocalypse not a recurring X-Villain? We have The Twelve, Rise OF Apocaplypse, Blood of Apocalypse, Age Of Apocalypse, Apocalypse Wars, All of Uncanny X-Force Vol1 revolvs around him, X-Cutioners song etc. This guy has to have close to a thousand issues across X-Men books the past three decades. And then there are characters like Archangel and Genesis who only exist because of him.

 

[Stan Lee]

Agree to disagree I guess.

This villain seemed very chosen in an attempt to up the ante in destruction and that's about it. They knew he was anticipated, rushed his inclusion and tried to fit a story around him being a one and done villain. Another mistake. It was too early for Apocalypse with where the major X-Men were at as characters and as a team but was also too early for making the best use of Apocalypse himself. This was a perfect crossover villain if they played their cars right.

How is Apocalypse not a recurring X-Villain? We have The Twelve, Rise OF Apocaplypse, Blood of Apocalypse, Age Of Apocalypse, Apocalypse Wars, All of Uncanny X-Force Vol1 revolvs around him, X-Cutioners song etc. This guy has to have close to a thousand issues across X-Men books the past three decades. And then there are characters like Archangel and Genesis who only exist because of him.

What I mean is that he not a recurring villian nowadays. Apocalypse hasn't been in the X-Books since Blood of Apocalypse which came out 10 years ago and before that he was out of the comics for 5 years. Since then we have only seen clones or alternate future villains of the character.

The only memorable crossover event involving the character was Age of Apocalypse. And that was an alternate reality so that wasn't really him.

 

[def28]

What I mean is that he not a recurring villian nowadays. Apocalypse hasn't been in the X-Books since Blood of Apocalypse which came out 10 years ago and before that he was out of the comics for 5 years. Since then we have only seen clones or alternate future villains of the character.

The only memorable crossover event involving the character was Age of Apocalypse. And that was an alternate reality so that wasn't really him.

Apocalypse Wars just happened this year and Uncanny X-Force started in 2011.

Since Evan is a clone of Apocalypse he has been around quite alot in numerous X-Men titles. Not to mention Archangel was Apocalypse for a bit in Dark Angel Saga. Which is pretty much the best Apocalypse related story out there and is one of Marvels highest rated titles this decade. It's up there with the best X books. If you have not read it I could not recommend it more as an X-Men fan.

An Age Of Apocalypse book was also released in 2012 that lasted a bit more then a year.

 

[Stan Lee]

Apocalypse Wars just happened this year and Uncanny X-Force started in 2011.

Since Evan is a clone of Apocalypse he has been around quite alot in numerous X-Men titles. Not to mention Archangel was Apocalypse for a bit in Dark Angel Saga. Which is pretty much the best Apocalypse related story out there and is one of Marvels highest rated titles this decade. It's up there with the best X books. If you have not read it I could not recommend it more as an X-Men fan.

An Age Of Apocalypse book was also released in 2012 that lasted a bit more then a year.

Read the rest of my post. I'm talking real 616 Apocalypse.

Edit: Another reason why Apocalypse was chosen was so he could be a foil for Xavier.

 

[def28]

Read the rest of my post. I'm talking real 616 Apocalypse.

So your argument is only certain versions of Apocalypse count? That doesn't make sense, or erase other books in 616 that happened.

Apocalypse was reborn (like always) in 616 through a child, and it actually left for better storytelling/development around the character for certain stories and others not so much. But one way or the other Apocalypse has been a constant adversary and threat against the X-Men for 3 decades. He was never abandoned as being a villain for them, and I'm sure different versions await in the future.

Edit: Another reason why Apocalypse was chosen was so he could be a foil for Xavier.

There are plenty of villains to use as a foil for him though. With the way they wanted to bring in Scott, Jean, Ororo and Kurt I really don't think it worked well with this creative team. While Angel and Betsy are now just characterless villains who are not guaranteed of ever being X-Men.

At some point they will have to think on how these choices benefit characters other then Charles and Magneto. Or audiences won't think they are anything more then background vfx and supporting characters. Nobody wants to wait another 16 years for them to get Storm, Angel and Besty right finally. Or for Scott to be an actual leader, which we still don't have. They should have already known their mistakes with X3.

 

[EnDz0n3]

You might be ok with it but that won't happen for obvious reasons.

For many he is still one of the highest of apocalypse.

That's like saying Nightcrawler was guaranteed after X2. Things change. One moment your adamantium claws get cut off by some decrepit guy in a metal suit, the next moment you're lying down on a slab in some Chinese monastery clawing away at some girl with your metal claws.

And one of the highest? You really should spell-check your posts. lol

I don't think its down to experience its just down to execution like in X1 toad kicked knocked them all on their asses just by himself so its not about well they are experienced adults they can put up a.. oh they are out of the fight already.

I think it was said during X1 that team didn't see a lot of real world battles regardless if they were kids or adults. Hence why they got their asses handed to them, by Toad of all people.

This thinking might have changed after subsequent sequels but at that time that was the original idea.

 

[GuestStar2004]

That's like saying Nightcrawler was guaranteed after X2. Things change. One moment your adamantium claws get cut off by some decrepit guy in a metal suit, the next moment you're lying down on a slab in some Chinese monastery clawing away at some girl with your metal claws.

And one of the highest? You really should spell-check your posts. lol

Yep it was meant to say highlights.

Well given he was one of the "Highlights" of DOFP and Apocalypse why would they toss him out? doesn't seem like the wisest choice to make does it?

And as for nightcrawler it could be argued that it was an odd decision not to have him there for X3 but the fact he was brought back for apocalypse earlier in the timeline pretty much says that they ain't making that mistake again, he is now an officially suited up X-Man as of the ending of Apocalypse.

Even in FC they had azazel which felt like a replacement nightcrawler so he was never really forgotten about.

 

[Stan Lee]

So your argument is only certain versions of Apocalypse count? That doesn't make sense, or erase other books in 616 that happened.

Apocalypse was reborn (like always) in 616 through a child, and it actually left for better storytelling/development around the character for certain stories and others not so much. But one way or the other Apocalypse has been a constant adversary and threat against the X-Men for 3 decades. He was never abandoned as being a villain for them, and I'm sure different versions await in the future.

Yes. The same way I don't count Dark Beast's as the real Hank.

IIRC, the child didn't play the role of villian and was killed then cloned to create Evan. But my point is that he is not a good enough villian to make a crossover film with like Thanos. He is a flat old school villian that gets stale after awhile, that is why you don't see the 616 version anymore. His only really memorable story was Fall of Mutants and creating Cable.

There are plenty of villains to use as a foil for him though. With the way they wanted to bring in Scott, Jean, Ororo and Kurt I really don't think it worked well with this creative team. While Angel and Betsy are now just characterless villains who are not guaranteed of ever being X-Men.

At some point they will have to think on how these choices benefit characters other then Charles and Magneto. Or audiences won't think they are anything more then background vfx and supporting characters. Nobody wants to wait another 16 years for them to get Storm, Angel and Besty right finally. Or for Scott to be an actual leader, which we still don't have. They should have already known their mistakes with X3.

They could easily say that wasn't Betsy but Kwannon. They didn't call her Betsy in the movie or the credits and she lacked a British accent. Bring in white British Betsy and eventually have her take over Kwannon's body like in the comics.

 

[Stan Lee]

Double post.

 

[def28]

No matter how you break it down they are still fighting Apocalypse. He never disappeared as villain. Brought back in different ways? Sure. We are talking comic books!

I'd take the AOA version of Blink over 616 Blink anyday or any reality, but I wouldn't discredit 616 Blink if they used her. Or Cable and Rachel just cause they are from another time/alt reality. That seems stupid to me. The X-Men and Marvel universe deals with so much reality bending, time travel, death, odd science and being brought back to life you pretty much are forced to count all this. The goal here is to take good material and apply it to the screen. And if the filmmakers were honest in their choosing of the horsemen then they took Betsy being one from Dark Angel Saga. They are not just using 1 comic book for reference.

Apocalypse was already in an X-Force script and how many issues was AOA? That should kind of be enough there, regardless on how your personal feelings are on these newer stories. He battles every X-Men team and is a threat to the world. And then other characters who revolve around him like Archangel hold far more potential then this film ever did. If you can't see even that, then we are likely not gonna agree on much.

...and why would anyone spend over 180m dollars bringing in the flat not good one time only Apocalypse? That's not what audience want and not what X-Men fans want. He was a horrible villain and they didn't make any good use from the hundreds of Apocalypse comics.

They could easily say that wasn't Betsy but Kwannon. They didn't call her Betsy in the movie or the credits and she lacked a British accent. Bring in white British Betsy and eventually have her take over Kwannon's body like in the comics.

They could easily do alot of things but choose not to. This was not in the film I watched and nothing hinted at that, if they actually fix issues instead of creating more then I will give them credit. Won't change the fact they wasted her in this film as well as many others.

They need a writer who actually cares about Betsy as a character. Kinberg ain't that guy. As long as she had an action scene he thought that was a good enough reason to include her.

 

[X-Maniac]

Yes. The same way I don't count Dark Beast's as the real Hank.

IIRC, the child didn't play the role of villian and was killed then cloned to create Evan. But my point is that he is not a good enough villian to make a crossover film with like Thanos. He is a flat old school villian that gets stale after awhile, that is why you don't see the 616 version anymore.

Your reply wasn't addressed to me but, still, I want to respond. Apocalypse is no more old-school or one-note than Magneto. Apocalypse has come up with many different schemes in the books, in the same way Magneto has in the books (and movies).

If they wanted to use him again, they would. If the filmmakers can turn Mystique into Xavier's step-sister, a solo mutant rescue operative, the mutant whose power created the future Sentinels and the woman who trained the young X-Men, what makes you think they couldn't come up with different aspects to Apocalypse?

Mystique's role in the original trilogy hardly suggested all those other dimensions to her character, in fact she was just a cold-blooded henchwoman and little else.

They could easily say that wasn't Betsy but Kwannon. They didn't call her Betsy in the movie or the credits and she lacked a British accent. Bring in white British Betsy and eventually have her take over Kwannon's body like in the comics.

We already had a Psylocke who wasn't Psylocke in X3. How many times can they pull this stunt?

Bottom line: If you're going to use a character, especially a classic/well-known/popular one from the books, then do it properly...

This lesson has yet to be learned. Emma Frost also succumbed to the same fate.

 

[EnDz0n3]

They could easily say that wasn't Betsy but Kwannon. They didn't call her Betsy in the movie or the credits and she lacked a British accent. Bring in white British Betsy and eventually have her take over Kwannon's body like in the comics.

Oh gawd...

Well given he was one of the "Highlights" of DOFP and Apocalypse why would they toss him out? doesn't seem like the wisest choice to make does it?

Quicksilver being a "highlight" in Apocalypse is hardly a "given."

If they bring him back again, they would have to think long and hard about his use as it got stale after only a second reappearance.

On that note, they should think long and hard about *every* character they use going forward.

And again just because it was established in the previous movie doesn't mean they will follow up on it in the next. There's way too many examples of that in this franchise to name. Rightly or wrongly.

 

[Ivan Drago]

Quicksilver is great. They should bring him back for the next x-men movie. Just don't waste time with another big quicksilver scene.

 

[def28]

If there was an actual score behind the scene in Apocalypse and a little more effort in making it tense, it would have been stronger and not seemed like such a rehash. Could have been far more emotional if we actually saw him trying to save Havok, then fail.

 

[Ivan Drago]

If there was an actual score behind the scene in Apocalypse and a little more effort in making it tense, it would have been stronger and not seemed like such a rehash. Could have been far more emotional if we actually saw him trying to save Havok, then fail.

Going by the trailer I thought the Quicksilver scene in Apocalypse was going to be a serious, tense scene of him trying his hardest to rescue everyone.

Instead it's played for laughs. So dumb.

 

[GuestStar2004]

If there was an actual score behind the scene in Apocalypse and a little more effort in making it tense, it would have been stronger and not seemed like such a rehash. Could have been far more emotional if we actually saw him trying to save Havok, then fail.

To be fair the sequence did go down very well, most the tv spots produced since have used it to death, sometimes with nothing but that footage and audiences beyond maybe a few loved the sequence.

Now if you took the humour and fun out of it would it still have been as well received? maybe, depends how it was done i guess.

 

[def28]

To be fair the sequence did go down very well, most the tv spots produced since have used it to death and audiences beyond maybe a few loved it.

Now if you took the humour and fun out of it would it still have been as well received? maybe, depends how it was done i guess.

The scene is entertaining and Peters is great, but it's not placed well in the film at all and it is trying very hard to replicate DOFP's too much so it seems forced. That's the issue and why there is a mixed attitude towards it.

This was contrived at the expense of another characters life after all, so the issue stems from the writing. There needed to be some urgency and tension. But it's all for laughs, and then we are hit with the after thought of Alex accidentally killing himself. The writer is assuming the audience doesn't care about Alex enough and is far more interested in just having a crowd pleasing scene. Yet they still want him to die so Scott can mourn.
So Alex died in a poor way just to give Quicksilver a crowd pleasing scene and then we jump right into a bs way to add over dramatics to Scott for something we never saw. Pretty unfair. There were ways this could have worked but this was just bad. Now if Alex was the last one Peter saw and the tone changed as QS saw him die that adds a much stronger level to what happens after with Scott as well as QS's scene with Mystique at Strykers base. "You know, for a guy who's just fast as me, I always seem to be too late". We should have seen that through Quicksilvers eyes since that was ultimately what they wanted to execute here. Instead he's just as clueless as the audience on what happened.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

In regards to Apocalypse, though I love him and couldn't wait to see him in the big screen, and enjoyed what we got from him, I never expected him to be a recurring villain. I always thought in the movies he would be a one and done villain and so I had no issue with it here.

Let's not forget it took someone aa powerful as Pheonix to do it as well and even then she didn't do it on her own. So him being killed at the end didn't surprise or disappoint me.

Also, with Cable coming into this universe soon through the Deadpool sequel, they can bring him back if they wish through time travel.

 

[def28]

First things first, X-Force needs to save Psylocke and make sure X-23 won't be only in one film.

Nobody is gonna want to go near Apocalypse after this film for awhile. So bring on Stryfe and Selene.

 

[NotNickFury]

First things first, X-Force needs to save Psylocke and make sure X-23 won't be only in one film.

Nobody is gonna want to go near Apocalypse after this film for awhile. So bring on Stryfe and Selene.

Hopefully that's the case and I know some have expressed that similar desire. Plus, pretty sure Olivia Munn herself has said she'd like to see Psylocke appear in an X-Force film. Whether Fox goes that route by grabbing her version or if Fox would actually go as far as recasting Psylocke altogether, not sure yet. It's time travel, so anything is fair game.

 

[GuestStar2004]

I still think since she was used for apocalypse she wasn't on their minds for X-FORCE anyway, heck she wasn't even on their minds for the previous X-Force movie that was in development going by the concept art that was released.

Could apocalypse still come back? course they could take another shot at him, he probably wouldn't be the lead villain but yeah course, but was that likely ever the plan? looking at it overall? Probably not!

 

[Stan Lee]

Your reply wasn't addressed to me but, still, I want to respond. Apocalypse is no more old-school or one-note than Magneto. Apocalypse has come up with many different schemes in the books, in the same way Magneto has in the books (and movies).

Pre-Claremont Mags was but not Post-Claremont Mags. He has actually played the role of hero and anti-hero, and that is the direction the films are taking him.

If they wanted to use him again, they would. If the filmmakers can turn Mystique into Xavier's step-sister, a solo mutant rescue operative, the mutant whose power created the future Sentinels and the woman who trained the young X-Men, what makes you think they couldn't come up with different aspects to Apocalypse?

Mystique's role in the original trilogy hardly suggested all those other dimensions to her character, in fact she was just a cold-blooded henchwoman and little else.

Oh, I believe they are going to make him Shadow King.

Mystique being Chuck's step-sister is an amalgam of Xavier's background in the 616 and Ultimate Universe.

We already had a Psylocke who wasn't Psylocke in X3. How many times can they pull this stunt?

Bottom line: If you're going to use a character, especially a classic/well-known/popular one from the books, then do it properly...

This lesson has yet to be learned. Emma Frost also succumbed to the same fate.

Psylocke was in X3?

Oh gawd...

They did it with Xavier and Apocalypse.

 

[NotNickFury]

Psylocke was in X3?

Briefly, but yes, she was part of Magneto's brotherhood and, I believe, seen very briefly during the attack on Worthington Labs.

 

[Stan Lee]

Or Cable and Rachel just cause they are from another time/alt reality.

Cable was born in 616, actually. He was just raised in the future.

Apocalypse was already in an X-Force script and how many issues was AOA? That should kind of be enough there, regardless on how your personal feelings are on these newer stories. He battles every X-Men team and is a threat to the world. And then other characters who revolve around him like Archangel hold far more potential then this film ever did. If you can't see even that, then we are likely not gonna agree on much.

They pretty much told Archangel's story with Magneto in this film. Similar to how Tony Stark replaced Hank Pym as Ultron's creator.

...and why would anyone spend over 180m dollars bringing in the flat not good one time only Apocalypse? That's not what audience want and not what X-Men fans want. He was a horrible villain and they didn't make any good use from the hundreds of Apocalypse comics.

You thought he was horrible? Because he was pretty much written like his comic counterpart in the X-Factor days, which is often considered the best and definitive portrayal of the character.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

Cable was born in 616, actually. He was just raised in the future.



They pretty much told Archangel's story with Magneto.



You thought he was horrible? Because he was pretty much written like his comic counterpart in the X-Factor days, which is often considered the best portrayal of the character.

I loved Apoc also, though I do think they could have built him up for a few movies first. But overall I loved what we got and thought Oscar was great as him.