The Dark Knight Rises You Have My Permission To Lounge - Part 3

[AnneFan]

But you already loved the theatrical cut. I seriously doubt any of us will like it any more than "well that had better pacing and a couple of cool new scenes".

I doubt my 40 percent rating will go up to a 70 or 80 percent.

As theShape said, it's simply not true that the UC contains superficial differences. It makes the film a whole lot more better in terms of context and pace. But then again, the die has already been cast with BvS. So I don't see the arguments going away anytime soon.

 

[The Joker]

There are films in which the Director's Cut have turned around my feelings on the film. Kingdom of Heaven is a good example. But even then, I didn't outright despise the theatrical versions. I've never seen a film I hated be improved enough so that I liked it.

So while I'm glad some people are happy that the UC might be the better cut of the film, I doubt I will enjoy it. I won't waste my time with it unless some of the other posters around here (The Joker, I SEE SPIDEY, etc.) that also hated it come on this board and say it changed their minds about the film. I'd give it a shot then.

I'm flattered you value my opinion so much

I've watched most of the new stuff that was supposedly a big improvement to the movie online, but I didn't bother with the fluff filler they added. The changes I watched are mostly superficial. They don't improve the movie in any significant way to make it a good enough movie to make people like it. The movie needs a total overhaul for that. Only those who already liked it will take to it, because to them it's just like adding cream to an already tasty cake. So in other words you're most likely still not going to care for it.

The general consensus seems to confirm this;

http://ie.ign.com/articles/2016/06/...dition-wont-change-your-mind-about-the-film-2

http://thecomeback.com/pop-culture/...the-same-bad-movie-just-longer-this-time.html

http://www.hollywoodintoto.com/ultimate-edition-batman-superman-review/

http://www.comicsbeat.com/does-the-ultimate-cut-make-batman-v-superman-a-better-film/

You get the idea. If you're that curious about it though, then watch the footage online for free. But just be warned, it's probably not going to do anything for you.

 

[Spider-Aziz]

I'm flattered you value my opinion so much

I've watched most of the new stuff that was supposedly a big improvement to the movie online, but I didn't bother with the fluff filler they added. The changes I watched are mostly superficial. They don't improve the movie in any significant way to make it a good enough movie to make people like it. The movie needs a total overhaul for that. Only those who already liked it will take to it, because to them it's just like adding cream to an already tasty cake. So in other words you're most likely still not going to care for it.

So I guess Chip's opinion of "they upgrade it from dog poo to a bad movie" -and I'm paraphrasing a bit- doesn't apply either.

 

[DACrowe]

There are films in which the Director's Cut have turned around my feelings on the film. Kingdom of Heaven is a good example. But even then, I didn't outright despise the theatrical versions. I've never seen a film I hated be improved enough so that I liked it.

So while I'm glad some people are happy that the UC might be the better cut of the film, I doubt I will enjoy it. I won't waste my time with it unless some of the other posters around here (The Joker, I SEE SPIDEY, etc.) that also hated it come on this board and say it changed their minds about the film. I'd give it a shot then.

Pretty much agreed. The director's cut of Kingdom of Heaven is the gold standard in how it turned a rather mediocre movie into a great one. But I would need some high recommendations from the UC before I'd try that out. So far, it seems like fans who already liked or convinced themselves they liked the movie are now saying it is even better in this format.

 

[The Shape]

Yeah, I'm definitely interested in hearing more opinions from people who didn't like the TC but took the time to actually watch the UC in its entirety.

Watching the some of the new bits of footage online or reading scene descriptions is obviously not the same as watching a film from start to finish, seeing how all of the additional sequences and details are integrated into the film, how the variances in editing affect and impact the flow of the story, how the new version of the story unfolds and ties things together, the different pacing, etc.

 

[The Joker]

So I guess Chip's opinion of "they upgrade it from dog poo to a bad movie" -and I'm paraphrasing a bit- doesn't apply either.

I guess it depends on your perspective. I mean dog poo to bad movie isn't much of an upgrade. It's still a bad movie, so odds are you're still not going to like it.

 

[shauner111]

I don't see how some straight faced Clark investigating with bad actors or extras feeding him generic information and an extended version of that cheesy Africa scene and MORE Lexenberg is going to suddenly make this a good movie or much better. Sorry Shape, but I'm skeptical.

 

[The Batman]

This discussion almost makes me wanna bite the bullet and watch the UC.

 

[The Shape]

I don't see how some straight faced Clark investigating with bad actors or extras feeding him generic information and an extended version of that cheesy Africa scene and MORE Lexenberg is going to suddenly make this a good movie or much better. Sorry Shape, but I'm skeptical.

Exactly why my recommendation was that you shouldn't bother watching it. You'd never give it a fair shake, anyway.

 

[shauner111]

Of course i would give it a fair shake. But i can't sit down and try to act like the theatrical cut never happened. I can't erase that from my mind. I like some scenes. But there's a lot i don't like. Those scenes are not going to be cut are they?

I'm open to the idea that i will suddenly like Luthor's performance, but i just dont think that's going to happen. Doesn't mean it won't. Some of my favorite records were records that i didn't like at all the first time around, or had a lot of problems with it.

If it's edited well, i will say so. I will be fair. I'm not going to diss it for the sake of being a Snyder hater. I don't "hate" Man of Steel or Watchmen. So im not trying my best to make fun of it like i would Michael Bay.

I am curious. I just don't have good expectations because i've heard from people that say it's b.s that it's suddenly a much better movie. If im wrong, i will admit it to you Shape, i promise.

I'll try to give an honest review.

 

[AnneFan]

Watching the some of the new bits of footage online or reading scene descriptions is obviously not the same as watching a film from start to finish, seeing how all of the additional sequences and details are integrated into the film, how the variances in editing affect and impact the flow of the story, how the new version of the story unfolds and ties things together, the different pacing, etc.

Again, agreed. And while I'll always champion the UC, I'm now way beyond caring about what others think about BvS. It's just exhausting, repetitive and ultimately, a waste of time. I will always find the hate hyperbolic and savage to the point of glee. Sucks for them. Snyder must have butchered their family with a sword or something. As long as I enjoy the movie, that's all that matters. To me it clearly is more than just adding a couple more scenes. It does wonders to the film in terms of flow when you actually watch the whole movie and not segments of it. It's just more coherent and stronger, especially that senate hearing sequence and aftermath.

 

[titansupes]

I'm really looking forward to seeing the UC, honestly.

 

[Spider-Aziz]

I guess it depends on your perspective. I mean dog poo to bad movie isn't much of an upgrade. It's still a bad movie, so odds are you're still not going to like it.

Bad can be good, depends on how much fun can be found in it.
Dog poo is irredeemable.
That's my balance for it.

This discussion almost makes me wanna bite the bullet and watch the UC.

None of the movie improvements I read about make Bruce smarter, or Lois more understandable, or remove the complete useless and idiotic presence of Perry White as a character, or anything about Jimmy Olsen, or give a more significant role to Alfred, or explain......

You know something? The ultimate cut can burn to crisp for all I care.

 

[Greens]

Yeah, I'm definitely interested in hearing more opinions from people who didn't like the TC but took the time to actually watch the UC in its entirety.

Watching the some of the new bits of footage online or reading scene descriptions is obviously not the same as watching a film from start to finish, seeing how all of the additional sequences and details are integrated into the film, how the variances in editing affect and impact the flow of the story, how the new version of the story unfolds and ties things together, the different pacing, etc.

I was about to say this. Watching the new material separately does NOT do the UC justice and I advise people to watch it in its entirety.

The TC was a mess to me. Terrible beyond belief? No, there was some cool stuff in there. But the editing completely sucked the life out of it. I watched the UC in its entirety a couple of days ago and it GREATLY improved my BvS experience. It actually felt like a movie as opposed to a montage of disconnected scenes. All of the new material makes the movie flow. It gives us actual transitions from scene to scene, little bits and pieces that establish new locations. Some scenes, especially in the first act, are re-arranged for the better.

Do not underestimate how a lot of small cuts can impact a movie. In some scenes, almost nothing is added except one or two lines. Those lines make all the difference.

Some of the added scenes completely change the way you saw certain characters in the movie, especially the big trio Batman, Superman and Lex. ESSENTIAL information was cut from the movie, which is why even if you're skeptical and don't feel like "wasting" your time... I would still recommend this cut. It's a different experience, a more complete story.

To the cynical people out there, it's fine if you just want to read about the changes but I don't think you're qualified to have an opinion unless you've actually watched the cut. Reading about a movie and actually experiencing it are two wholly different things.

 

[The Shape]

I was about to say this. Watching the new material separately does NOT do the UC justice and I advise people to watch it in its entirety.

The TC was a mess to me. Terrible beyond belief? No, there was some cool stuff in there. But the editing completely sucked the life out of it. I watched the UC in its entirety a couple of days ago and it GREATLY improved my BvS experience. It actually felt like a movie as opposed to a montage of disconnected scenes. All of the new material makes the movie flow. It gives us actual transitions from scene to scene, little bits and pieces that establish new locations. Some scenes, especially in the first act, are re-arranged for the better.

Do not underestimate how a lot of small cuts can impact a movie. In some scenes, almost nothing is added except one or two lines. Those lines make all the difference.

Some of the added scenes completely change the way you saw certain characters in the movie, especially the big trio Batman, Superman and Lex. ESSENTIAL information was cut from the movie, which is why even if you're skeptical and don't feel like "wasting" your time... I would still recommend this cut. It's a different experience, a more complete story.

To the cynical people out there, it's fine if you just want to read about the changes but I don't think you're qualified to have an opinion unless you've actually watched the cut. Reading about a movie and actually experiencing it are two wholly different things.

Well said.

There are a lot of interesting ways that the UC changes the fabric of the entire film and story. Obviously, the bigger story elements that were added back in (the full Africa sequence, Clark investigating the Batman, the full extent of Lex's manipulations, etc) have a huge impact on the story, give more weight to some of the scenes that remain virtually unchanged from the TC, and answer many of the questions people had regarding the TC. The proper structure, editing, and pacing all give the film a different (and better) flow and feel. But even the little bits of dialogue and character beats that were added back in made a world of difference to me.

For instance, one moment in the UC that comes to mind is prior to the Martha rescue when Batman hops in the Batwing and Alfred begins talking to him to help him find Martha. The first thing Batman says is "I don't deserve you, Alfred." I just can't believe something like that was cut, as it essentially serves as Batman verbally acknowledging his mistakes and apologizing to Alfred for the way he'd been acting.

There are so many examples of things like that, all of which I felt added to the viewing experience and made it a stronger, more fleshed out, and well-told story with more room to breathe. While watching the UC, I was honestly shocked not only by how much was trimmed, changed, or cut entirely...but by WHAT they chose to cut or change. I understand the intention of the cuts and why they did cut those things -- they obviously tried to make a 2.5 hour version of the story that still made sense overall (in terms of the core elements) and would be easy enough for viewers to follow -- but it's now clear that the TC was a much poorer version of the complete story they were originally trying to tell.

 

[Greens]

There are so many examples of things like that, all of which I felt added to the viewing experience and made it a stronger, more fleshed out, and well-told story with more room to breathe. While watching the UC, I was honestly shocked not only by how much was trimmed, changed, or cut entirely...but by WHAT they chose to cut or change. I understand the intention of the cuts and why they did cut those things -- they obviously tried to make a 2.5 hour version of the story that still made sense overall (in terms of the core elements) and would be easy enough for viewers to follow -- but it's now clear that the TC was a much poorer version of the complete story they were originally trying to tell.

Exactly. Some of the cuts had me scratching my head, like why Superman didn't notice the wheelchair bomb, the extended scene with Batman visiting Lex in prison, the explanation of the Bat-branding repercussions. These are essential story beats and I can't imagine how crappy Snyder felt about cutting these things out.

 

[The Shape]

To clarify, it's not like the UC is astronomically different from the TC. It doesn't suddenly tell a completely different story and the outcome of the story remains virtually unchanged. It doesn't magically erase all of the events that took place. So, like I said the other day, if your vitriol towards BvS is mostly due to being fundamentally against the concept of the film and/or the way many characters were presented, there's probably no sense in watching the UC, despite the UC giving more clarity to some of the character's actions.

 

[Greens]

Yeah, that's true. The characters are essentially the same, but the UC does "resolve" some of the character's faults.

 

[The Shape]

Here's another example, which I talked about in another thread a few days ago, and one of the many small differences between both versions.

In Batman's first appearance in the TC, we see the GCPD car skid up to a building, which the two cops then enter to find the caged girls, branded guy, and Batman.

In the UC, that scene begins with the two cops chilling in the GCPD car eating and watching a Metropolis/Gotham college football game. A call about "screams heard in an abandoned building" comes through, which the cops seem to ignore for a moment. We see couple of moments of the game on their screen and the Gotham players start a brawl with the Metropolis players. When the cops finally answer the call and drive away, the football commentators say “Gotham City, you know how they feel about their football team. Things may get ugly in the city tonight.” The cops drive away and the camera pans out to reveal Gotham City and we see this:

Then, they pull up to the abandonded building as in the TC.


Watching the added bits of this scene out of context would make it seem relatively insignificant. But within the film itself, a scene like this is absolutely crucial for the following reasons:

- MUCH less of an abrupt transition between the previous scene and this one.
- Shows that some Gotham City cops are lazy and don't immediately "jump" to help people or stop crime
- The bits of the football game establish (in 3 seconds time) that Gotham is rougher than Gotham, and that Metropolis and Gotham have a relationship akin to that of San Francisco and Oakland
- Includes an establishing shot of Gotham to clue viewers into the fact that the film has now cut to Gotham City
- The Gotham Seaport sign is shown to be decaying, which conveys the idea that Gotham is more run-down than Metropolis
- Beyond that, the "abandoned building" call and the decaying/defaced billboard clues viewers into the fact that the Gotham Seaport (where the film's later battles take place) is truly abandoned
- Easter Egg of ACE Chemicals shown in the background of that shot

This is a prime example of how not even a minute of extra footage can impact a film from a storytelling and filmmaking perspective. Out of context, it seems like nothing, but when watching the film from the beginning and getting to this part, it not only feels so much more natural but also essential. And this is less than one minute of additional footage, one of many seemingly tiny changes/additions which all add clarity to the story and its settings, so anyone should be able to imagine how some of the bigger additions or extensions of entire subplots and character moments would impact the over-arching story when integrated properly within the film.

Forget about being a fan of these characters or the BvS TC. As a film buff and former college film major, I can honestly say I was fascinated watching the UC and seeing how much of a difference all of the changes made to the film as a whole.

 

[Greens]

Couldn't agree more.

Another example I talked about in another thread is the brief intermission between the whole Capitol drama and Batman's break-in at Lexcorp. In the TC, the movie jarringly cuts to the Lexcorp grounds almost directly after the explosion. I personally didn't get resolution until I saw the Batarang in the glass case. The burning booth especially confused me for a second.

In the UC, we get some calm before the storm with Alfred. From the look on his face combined with the music you know that HE knows exactly what Bruce is doing. It's a tease, and the next shot of the burning booth and Lex arriving on his motorcycle is the pay-off.

 

[The Shape]

In the UC, we get some calm before the storm with Alfred. From the look on his face combined with the music you know that HE knows exactly what Bruce is doing. It's a tease, and the next shot of the burning booth and Lex arriving on his motorcycle is the pay-off.

Yup, this is another example of just a few seconds of footage that I feel should have been essential. What actually happens is that Alfred is in Bruce's house and see all of the angry/taunting letters from "Wallace" (the supposed bomber) that Bruce brought back to his place after the bombing.

The top letter that Alfred picks up shows a drawing of the Capitol building engulfed in flames. We know why all of those letters and the bombing itself drove Bruce over the edge and led him to steal the Kryptonite from Lex, setting his plan to destroy Superman in motion. But the added knowledge that the bomber had supposedly warned Bruce of the bombing would have made him feel even more guilty and personally responsible for not stopping it, fueling his rage even further.

Alfred picks up the letter and knows something like that would have been enough to push him over the edge on top of everything else he'd been internally struggling with, and the look on Alfred's face is important in terms of cluing us into what has happened and what's about to happen.

And again, inserting this moment between the other two scenes alters the pacing/flow and makes the transition between those other more important scenes less abrupt.

 

[Greens]

Right, forgot about that drawing of the explosion. I really need to watch the UC again. There's so much information.

 

[The Batman]

None of the movie improvements I read about make Bruce smarter, or Lois more understandable, or remove the complete useless and idiotic presence of Perry White as a character, or anything about Jimmy Olsen, or give a more significant role to Alfred, or explain......

You know something? The ultimate cut can burn to crisp for all I care.

Having watched most of the UC....yup, pretty much.

Lex is slightly less annoying than he is in the TC...and that's pretty much it.

There's better "Batman meets Superman" media (World's Finest), better "Batman vs Superman" media (TDKR pt. 2), better "Death of Superman" media (Hereafter), and hell, the BvS UC isn't even the best "Director's Cut" Superman film.

Watching the UC, the thing I thought about often was...this was Wonder Woman's first appearance in a major live action movie. Superman had STM. Batman had B89. Wonder Woman's first major live action movie is one where she's shoehorned into a mediocre, dreary, bland film. The only thing that's worse is how the first ever GL film was a notorious piece of crap.

 

[Brother Jack]

[YT]GgkQS7q6sT0[/YT]

The kill count is actually less than I thought if you discount the knightmare sequence. Still, seeing Bale react to Affleck mowing people down is priceless.

 

[The Joker]

None of the movie improvements I read about make Bruce smarter, or Lois more understandable, or remove the complete useless and idiotic presence of Perry White as a character, or anything about Jimmy Olsen, or give a more significant role to Alfred, or explain......

You know something? The ultimate cut can burn to crisp for all I care.

That's why the improvements are mostly superficial. They don't turn the movie into a good movie. It's like throwing a coat of paint over a junked up car.