The Dark Knight Rises You Have My Permission To Lounge

[The Batman]

I have never seen Batman as being right wing.

 

[Tacit Ronin]

Well, he is a rich, white guy who has no faith in the government's ability in handling crime. So he takes it upon himself to mete out punishment, largely to impoverished, poor people trapped by their social circumstances.

And Bruce Wayne is likely to be pro-deregulation, smaller government and lower taxes for the rich. He has to be. He has a billion dollar business to run. (Tony Stark is a republican too I reckon).

The best writers know how to suppress that and focus on his better qualities. Paul Dini and Bruce Timm focus on his humanity and philanthropic side. The Nolan's were smart in making Batman a big picture guy so the beating up of poor kids wasn't in the cards.

But it looks like Snyder/Terrio are going all out. Bringing out all the problematic aspects of the character.

 

[BatLobster]

You just opened a can of worms there Tacit, heh. I wouldn't be at all surprised if that 1% line was inspired by Cheney's quote.

But yeah, there is precedent for reading Batman as a right wing character for all the reasons you laid out. If there as a spectrum from left to right on the character, Miller's version would probably be all the way to the right and potentially BvS's right there alongside it.

On The Fire Rises doc they talk a little bit about how the right and left both try to proclaim Batman as their own. Goyer poses that part of the intention with the trilogy was to illustrate that Bruce may not have thought through all the ramifications of what putting on that cowl would mean, and that it's one man taking on very complex problems.

 

[Tacit Ronin]

This is why I like the big picture mentality of Nolan's Batman. On his first night out, he struck at the source and took out Falcone.

Compare that to his first night out in Batman Year One. He brutally beats three impoverished kids stealing a television set. I cringe when I read that now.

 

[JackWhite]

Which makes me wonder just how much "warmth" Batfleck is going to have.

I'm assuming once he decides Superman isn't the threat his Bruce will be more likable.

 

[The Shape]

I like that they're addressing the problematic aspects of what both Batman and Superman do, along with what they represent, head-on with BvS. The conflict between them ultimately makes sense.

I also like that we're getting to see a Batman that's reached his breaking point. He's seen it all, fought against the craziest villains and monsters, lost loved ones, and the fact that he was helpless in saving his employees during the Metropolis attack only exacerbates his state of mind. The same feeling of hopelessness he had as he witnessed the deaths of his parents and vowed to devote his life to fighting crime drives him to devote his mission to take down Superman and perceive him as a threat.

I'm most interested to see how Batman moves on from this mindset after the revolution of BvS, and how he evolves in the upcoming films.

 

[BatLobster]

This is why I like the big picture mentality of Nolan's Batman. On his first night out, he struck at the source and took out Falcone.

Compare that to his first night out in Batman Year One. He brutally beats three impoverished kids stealing a television set. I cringe when I read that now.

I also like how with something like the Sonar machine, Bruce was willing to go pretty far, but still only so far by only entrusting Lucius to use it and then having it self-destruct after it had served its purpose.

Stuff like that made his Batman transcend typical political discourse in a way.

Little moments like Bruce throwing the rope back down after he escaped the pit was a nice touch to show that he did have compassion, even for supposed criminals in a dire situation.

 

[The Batman]

Well, he is a rich, white guy who has no faith in the government's ability in handling crime.

Being a rich white guy doesn't automatically make you right wing.

More often than not, Batman is portrayed as a response to a situation so extreme, normal people and governments can't handle, like Supercriminals, supernatural elements, etc.

So he takes it upon himself to mete out punishment, largely to impoverished, poor people trapped by their social circumstances.

And, as shown in BTAS episodes like "Old Wounds", he will go out of his way to rehabilitate people after he's met out that punishment. In the episode I mentioned, he beats up a crook in front of his family, only to end up giving him a job at WE.

And Bruce Wayne is likely to be pro-deregulation, smaller government and lower taxes for the rich. He has to be. He has a billion dollar business to run. (Tony Stark is a republican too I reckon).

You say it's likely, but I don't know any actual examples from comics/movies/etc that support this idea. Also, since when is being into dereguation a requisite for running a billion dollar business? Warren Buffett is one of the richest men in the world, runs a billion dollar business...and is not right wing.

The best writers know how to suppress that and focus on his better qualities. Paul Dini and Bruce Timm focus on his humanity and philanthropic side. The Nolan's were smart in making Batman a big picture guy so the beating up of poor kids wasn't in the cards.

There's nothing to suppress. Outside of Miller, Batman, as far as I can tell, has never been locked down to a particular ideology, right wing or not. He's not like Green Arrow or Hawkman in that regard. As you mentioned yourself, the humanitarian and philanthropic sides are there, alongside sides that can be interpreted as right wing.

 

[BatLobster]

I think ultimately the character does blur the line and has his own ideology that doesn't rigidly conform to any particular political paradigm.

But there's definitely a precedent for right wing "readings" of the character in pop culture, moreso than most other superheroes. I mean he's openly talked about in relation to fascism in DKR. Then there were articles popping up in the Wall Street Journal after TDK basically saying Batman=Bush. Not saying that makes it right, but that element is certainly in play in terms of the lens some view the character through.

 

[Decepticonus]

I dunno if people discussed this in the BvS forums or not, but have you guys noticed that Batman's quote -- if their is even a 1% chance of Superman being bad, that we should have to take it as an absolute certainty -- bears disturbing similarities to Dick Cheney's one percent doctrine? If there's a 1% chance that Pakistani scientists are helping al-Qaeda build or develop a nuclear weapon, we have to treat it as a certainty in terms of our response. It's not about our analysis... It's about our response

Batman has always been a right wing character, but they are pushing him into nutjob territory.

Not familiar with this quote from Cheney, but regardless it is ridiculous and non-sensical. Cheney is no longer relevant. Making this comparison during the Bush administration would have made more sense if that's what the film is going for. Second, this is nothing new on Batman's behalf. He is also sketpical and not very trust worthy of some. Let us not forget Tower of Babel. This almost mimics that... almost. Batman, the over-thinking, over-analyzing, brooding maniac with a contingency plan for everything, because on can never be too sure. And nutjob territory? He already dresses up as a Batman and prowls the roofs at night, but I guess that equates to civil, modest citizen.

Well, he is a rich, white guy who has no faith in the government's ability in handling crime. So he takes it upon himself to mete out punishment, largely to impoverished, poor people trapped by their social circumstances.

And Bruce Wayne is likely to be pro-deregulation, smaller government and lower taxes for the rich. He has to be. He has a billion dollar business to run. (Tony Stark is a republican too I reckon).

A rich, white-guy? Wow and people proclaim the conservatives/republicans of being racist. Look, go through Hollywood and you can find plenty of white, rich guys who reek of liberalism - James Cameron anyone? Or even the Roosevelts - rich, old money family but very progressive.
And no faith in government? Well, true but that is mainly in Miller's DKR for the most part. But you have to be right-wing to have no faith in the government? Did the left have much faith in government under Hoover or during the Vietnam War? Plenty of liberal people around me have no faith in the government, no because of or due to Obama but just in general. Face it, our government doesn't really practice efficiency.
Yes, people do turn to crime because of their social situation not because they're bad people necessarily. Nonetheless, Batman doesn't operate in the gray per se'. Recall, TAS Catwoman was originally a sort of Robin Hood character stealing but funneling the money to animal right causes. Noble? Yes, but theft is still theft.

Likely to be pro-deregulation, smaller government and lower taxes? Wow, talk about pigeon-holing. Plenty of times in the comics you could argue he's engaged in more altruistic business handling. No Man's Land - all the other businesses in Gotham decide to cut their losses and move out of Gotham due to the earthquake. Yet he stays and instead helps finance a bunch of new small businesses. All the time he is looking for Wayne Enterprises to expand... in Gotham and securing new jobs...in Gotham. He's not interested in opening up brand new sweat shops in China to pay smaller wages. I recall a particular TAS episode where he disagrees with chopping down a rain forest and threatens to fire someone over it. Meanwhile, I've never seen him take a political stance on economics. Keep in mind this character has been with us since the New Deal. Such a huge demand for tax cuts and pro-business politics didn't become a huge staple until the 80's. Go back to Eisenhower or Nixon, today's Republicans would probably call them socialists.

But yeah, there is precedent for reading Batman as a right wing character for all the reasons you laid out. If there as a spectrum from left to right on the character, Miller's version would probably be all the way to the right and potentially BvS's right there alongside it.

Amusing thing is Miller didn't see his Batman as right-wing. Miller defined right-wing as status-quo, law and order. Batman is a vigilante working outside of the law and is not happy with the status-quo. Grant Morrison regarded Miller's Batman as "anti-establishment", which I would agree. Let us not forget who the president and villain kind of was in that - President Regan. Do you get anymore right-wing than that? And if Batman is a darling of the right, why have him fight Regan? Now of course it's not uncommon for two people of the same thought to fight it out. You can find other examples in other parties and camps all over the world throughout history.

This is why I like the big picture mentality of Nolan's Batman. On his first night out, he struck at the source and took out Falcone.

Compare that to his first night out in Batman Year One. He brutally beats three impoverished kids stealing a television set. I cringe when I read that now.

Do we really know they are impoverished though?

Which makes me wonder just how much "warmth" Batfleck is going to have.

I'm assuming once he decides Superman isn't the threat his Bruce will be more likable.

OK, outside of the Bruce Wayne charm or Adam West, when the hell is Batman ever known for warmth.
Batman: I haven't been a child since I was 8-years old. (JLU)
Gee, thanks Captain Buzzkill. Then he's behaves like a dick towards all the Robins.

I think ultimately the character does blur the line and has his own ideology that doesn't rigidly conform to any particular political paradigm.

But there's definitely a precedent for right wing "readings" of the character in pop culture, moreso than most other superheroes. I mean he's openly talked about in relation to fascism in DKR. Then there were articles popping up in the Wall Street Journal after TDK basically saying Batman=Bush. Not saying that makes it right, but that element is certainly in play in terms of the lens some view the character through.

He doesn't fit to any particular paradigm. Look at lefty O'Neil. He struck a chord by not turning Batman into some kind of liberal, but his Batman hardly seemed right-wing either.
Meanwhile the fascist element is ridiculous. Miller's Batman does not represent a "palingenetic form of populist ultra-nationalism." I admit, there is a re-birth element in the story, he takes the youth in Gotham behind him and the fascists were the first youth movement, even building a youth corp. Meanwhile he is very anti-establishment against the current government but is looking to effect change through action not words or the ballot box. Then there's the riot scene on horseback which recalls to me when Mussolini and his Blackshirts had to restore order to Italy during the Red Years. But in the end his Batman would not declare that "All within the state, nothing outside the state, nothing against the state." He follows his own code. He is very individualistic which fascism hates and authoritarian yes, but not totalitarian like fascism.

 

[Brother Jack]

I also like how with something like the Sonar machine, Bruce was willing to go pretty far, but still only so far by only entrusting Lucius to use it and then having it self-destruct after it had served its purpose.

Stuff like that made his Batman transcend typical political discourse in a way.

I always took Batman giving the sonar machine to Lucius as Bruce acknowledging that Fox was, in his way, a better man than him. "You're the only one who can use it."

But I absolutely agree that Batman as a character is big and multi-dimensional enough to transcend political shackles. In the sense that you can do versions of him on every notch of the political spectrum and it can work because the mythos are so ripe for interpretation and reinterpretation.

 

[titansupes]

This is why I like the big picture mentality of Nolan's Batman. On his first night out, he struck at the source and took out Falcone.

Compare that to his first night out in Batman Year One. He brutally beats three impoverished kids stealing a television set. I cringe when I read that now.

Yep. For all his lack of damn-near-super-powered punching and flipping, this Batman was the only one smart enough to actually accomplish his goals.

 

[batfreakforever]

People are really turning on the Nolan film in the BvS threads. Its really pathetic. Nolan 's batman was never going to fight the way Snyder s batman and vise versa. This batman needs to fight aliens and monsters not the mob. Yeah this is they way batman fights as seen in the BvS trailers. Yeah !@#$ you depending on the type of batman you are doing. More human or against other superheros or aliens it just depends.

 

[The Shape]

I'll never turn on Nolan's Batman, or any Batman, just because a "cool" new version comes along. Every version of Batman will have various strengths and weaknesses compared to other versions, but I don't want them to all be exactly the same or strive for the same things.

 

[The Joker]

It's the fanboy cycle. It happens every time. Fans turned on Raimi's Spider-Man when the reboot was announced. They turned on Reeve's Superman when MOS was announced. Ditto with Burton's Batman when Begins was announced. It will pass. Just ride out this fickle storm in a tea cup.

 

[BatLobster]

Funny we were just talking about Batman in relation to right wing politics. I was just listening to some right wing talk radio in my car (don't judge me, it's entertaining and I like getting a sense of what both sides are talking about) and what do you know, they invoked Bane's revolution in "Batman" in relation to the election, saying how the types of reforms Bernie is calling for are just a step away from being that extreme. In addition to being extremely alarmist it also conveniently leaves out the fact that the ideology was co-opted by mass-murdering fanatics.

Which got me thinking about how even if you analyze them politically, Batman and Bane are perfect double negatives of each other in TDKR. Batman is someone who may seem outwardly oppressive that is ultimately trying to liberate the people. Bane is someone that's putting on the guise of a liberator while actually being a horrible oppressor.

 

[Tacit Ronin]

Being a rich white guy doesn't automatically make you right wing.

That's why I said rich white guy who takes the law into his own hand and punishes insular episodes of crime, mostly happening in poverty. That is certainly a right wing fantasy.

More often than not, Batman is portrayed as a response to a situation so extreme, normal people and governments can't handle, like Supercriminals, supernatural elements, etc.

Super criminals grew as a response to Batman no? At least in the Batman Year One continuity it is. I dunno about pre-crisis.

And was the status quo in Batman year one so bad as to justify Batman? Corrupt cops and bureaucrats. It wasn't any worse than your average hard boiled crime novel/TV/movie.

And, as shown in BTAS episodes like "Old Wounds", he will go out of his way to rehabilitate people after he's met out that punishment. In the episode I mentioned, he beats up a crook in front of his family, only to end up giving him a job at WE.

Yes. Like I said, Dini and Timm focused on his philanthropy, altruism and humanity to offset those more negative implications.

You say it's likely, but I don't know any actual examples from comics/movies/etc that support this idea. Also, since when is being into dereguation a requisite for running a billion dollar business? Warren Buffett is one of the richest men in the world, runs a billion dollar business...and is not right wing.

You are right. I am automatically assuming that. I would love for the comics to assault these assumptions. There aren't enough Bruce Wayne the businessman stories. This is yet another way writers can offset a casual right wing reading of Batman.

There's nothing to suppress. Outside of Miller, Batman, as far as I can tell, has never been locked down to a particular ideology, right wing or not. He's not like Green Arrow or Hawkman in that regard. As you mentioned yourself, the humanitarian and philanthropic sides are there, alongside sides that can be interpreted as right wing.

But not all writers focus on that. And those that tip the balance on the Batman scale too much expose the character to a right wing reading.

What Batlobster said is probably closer to the point, Batman can be read as a right wing character, particularly if the writers don't balance it with Bruce Wayne's more noble attitudes. Not that he is definitely right wing.

 

[Tacit Ronin]

And nutjob territory? He already dresses up as a Batman and prowls the roofs at night, but I guess that equates to civil, modest citizen.

I meant a right wing nutjob. As you said, Batman is already an (adjective-less) nutjob.

A rich, white-guy? Wow and people proclaim the conservatives/republicans of being racist. Look, go through Hollywood and you can find plenty of white, rich guys who reek of liberalism - James Cameron anyone? Or even the Roosevelts - rich, old money family but very progressive.

James Cameron does not prowl the nights and mercilessly beat up crooks and criminals at the expense of the criminal institution, which he implicitly deems ineffective.

And no faith in government? Well, true but that is mainly in Miller's DKR for the most part. But you have to be right-wing to have no faith in the government? Did the left have much faith in government under Hoover or during the Vietnam War? Plenty of liberal people around me have no faith in the government, no because of or due to Obama but just in general. Face it, our government doesn't really practice efficiency.

You can isolate those elements of Batman and explain it away. My point is when you take everything together, the opulence, the exceptional individualism, the business conglomerate, the lack of faith in the government, the punishment of petty crooks, all of these together can lean Batman to a right wing reading.

Yes, people do turn to crime because of their social situation not because they're bad people necessarily. Nonetheless, Batman doesn't operate in the gray per se'. Recall, TAS Catwoman was originally a sort of Robin Hood character stealing but funneling the money to animal right causes. Noble? Yes, but theft is still theft.

Like I said, not all writers balance those elements. Those that don't expose Batman to those readings.

Likely to be pro-deregulation, smaller government and lower taxes? Wow, talk about pigeon-holing. Plenty of times in the comics you could argue he's engaged in more altruistic business handling. No Man's Land - all the other businesses in Gotham decide to cut their losses and move out of Gotham due to the earthquake. Yet he stays and instead helps finance a bunch of new small businesses. All the time he is looking for Wayne Enterprises to expand... in Gotham and securing new jobs...in Gotham. He's not interested in opening up brand new sweat shops in China to pay smaller wages. I recall a particular TAS episode where he disagrees with chopping down a rain forest and threatens to fire someone over it. Meanwhile, I've never seen him take a political stance on economics. Keep in mind this character has been with us since the New Deal. Such a huge demand for tax cuts and pro-business politics didn't become a huge staple until the 80's. Go back to Eisenhower or Nixon, today's Republicans would probably call them socialists.

I wish we would focus more on Bruce Wayne the businessman. You are right, I am only assuming because of a lack of businessman Bruce Wayne stories.

Like I already said, the best Batman writers and stories balance those elements. But you don't see that side of Bruce Wayne often enough.

Do we really know they are impoverished though?

They are stealing a crappy television as a side decoration for their big ass plasma tv? (or whatever existed in the 80's).

OK, outside of the Bruce Wayne charm or Adam West, when the hell is Batman ever known for warmth.

I recall quite a few times in BTAS and JL/U. It's a shame that live action Batman hasn't been been given the opportunity to show the same emotional range.

 

[Victarion]

Which got me thinking about how even if you analyze them politically, Batman and Bane are perfect double negatives of each other in TDKR. Batman is someone who may seem outwardly oppressive that is ultimately trying to liberate the people. Bane is someone that's putting on the guise of a liberator while actually being a horrible oppressor.

That's what made TDKR my favorite of the trilogy.

 

[Brother Jack]

Which got me thinking about how even if you analyze them politically, Batman and Bane are perfect double negatives of each other in TDKR. Batman is someone who may seem outwardly oppressive that is ultimately trying to liberate the people. Bane is someone that's putting on the guise of a liberator while actually being a horrible oppressor.

I never made that connection but that just further reinforces how many parallels exist between the two. They really are presented as brothers existing on the ends of the same continuum. Bruce and Harvey Dent have that dynamic as well, with Dent being the "daytime" Batman. A lot people describe Joker in that way but I've never seen it in the film nor been a fan of the "they need each other" thing. Joker and Batman are exact opposites in every way. Their only similarities are that they're both white males around the same age.

 

[Victarion]

I like that Nolan used Joker as a natural response to Batman. Collateral damage from Batman's crusade against the criminal element.

 

[Tacit Ronin]

In other news: R rated Deadpool is on pace to beat MOS, and every MCU solo film barring IM 2/3 opening weekend.

This is potentially game changing. This can open the floodgates to more R rated superhero flicks.

 

[BatLobster]

Speaking of, has anybody seen Deadpool yet? I'll be honest, the trailers have only looked OK to me and I was dreading it being a lot of unfunny forced crude humor. But now the buzz has me more intrigued to check it out.

Definitely a big win for R-rated genre fare though.

 

[BH/HHH]

Its a good film and alot of fun. I gave it an 8/10

 

[Victarion]

How well does the trailers' humor reflect the actual movies? I was pretty cold to what I saw in the trailers, though the plot looks like fun and Deadpool's got a cool origin/costume.