BvS All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - - - - Part 13

[ЯɘvlveR]

Well, I guess it's nice that some people are really, really optimistic.

But insane hype kills films.

People kept saying that MOS would be the most epic CBM ever, be the next Dark Knight, etc....

It came out and was a pretty good movie, but not the best ever. And some people just couldn't deal with that. So people might want to try keeping the expectations a little lower this time so that a decent movie doesn't get **** upon for not being the BEST CBM EVER.

that was between us. between people who post in boards like these. no fairweather fans thought such a thing.

 

[smallville fan]

Fair warning, might ramble off here...

(1) Gal Godot as WW - cautiously optimistic, probably one of the better choices so far. Don't believe me? In the past, WB wanted Sandra Bullock in the role, then officially (100%) offered it to Jessica Biel in George Millers JL: Mortal, which eventually went to model Megan Gale. We've also had Adrianne palicki on TV. All hot women (Bullock included), only 1 can act. NONE fit the role of the exotic Amazonian woman.

That brings up another point. 4 candidates were up for the role of WW - Jaimie Alexander, Gal Godot, Olga Kurylenko and Elodie Yung. At the risk of sounding prejudiced, do you notice the odd one out? Apart from Alexander, all the other actresses tested had foreign looks. So why was JA in the mix? Was she a studio choice (like Katie Holmes in BB or Garner in Daredevil), due to the potential success of Thor? If true, that means Godot was The FILMMAKERS choice (Like Craig for Bond, or Bale for Batman). Hmm...


(2) the announcement states that Godot will play WW - not Diana, or any other aliases. That suggests that unlike Star Trek Into Darkness or even Iron Man 2, the character 'reveal' will not be a big part of the film - her identity is recognised in the film.

The other part of WW's casting was that she would a love interest of Bruce Wayne. So either we have an IM2- type scenario where Batman slowly discovers who Diana/WW is in the film. The only problem with this? Batman is NOT the lead character in the film, IT IS A MOS SEQUEL (remember this.). What if Bruce and Diana are already aware of each other/have a history?

Then we have another trades report that the Flash will make an appearance in the film as well. Suddenly the film looks like a JL movie after all.

BUT the studio have kept saying it IS a MOS sequel, even registering domain names.


The final reports - the villains in the movie have NOT been confirmed, so we don't know about Lex, Metallo, Doomsday. So far, the only confirmed actor in contention is Callan Mulvey, someone who seems to only fit the role of Metallo. However, the casting has been regarded as THE villain, singular.


So put all this together, and what do you get? A JL movie?

No.


A Batman-Superman movie?


No.



A DCU starting film?

Unlikely.




How about.... A MOS sequel?



All you have to do is one thing...


Make Superman the 'villain'.


What if Flash, WW and Batman, etc. Are all aware of each other, and have decided to come to Metropolis to stop the threat of a 'Superman', a being who can kill people with his bare hands, and who's race tried to destroy the world?

What if Superman has to prove himself to these 'heroes', especially to the one who is most distrustful (and most human)?

What if eventually the need for Superman is established by the emergence of a new villain, that only he can stop?

THAT sounds like an MOS sequel to me...

Dude, I am all for this. Paint Superman as public enemy #1 and have him striving to earn the trust of the people of Earth is the right way for this movie to go.

When I saw you write Public Enemy, that got me thinking about "Public Enemies" the Superman/Batman comic and I had an epiphany.

Here's an idea to add to mad-sci's pitch: What if Lex frames Superman for a crime he didn't commit forcing him to be Public Enemy #1 and the animosity humanity has to him from the recent invasion+"Inspiring words" from the beloved Lex Luthor just makes him look easily guilty and these other heroes end up trying to catch Superman, but of course it's mainly Batman who's after him, just to keep to what this film essentially is from the get-go despite the recent news, that is a Batman/Superman movie where THESE characters are the ones that frequently collide and clash.

The other heroes essentially replace President Luthor's government sanctioned superhero squad from the comic. On Superman's side of things, you have Clark and Lois being journalists, searching for the truth behind the crime to clear Superman's name. This gives the chance for their characters to develop in more ways than one, something the critics bashed.

This is an idea I could run with.

Would love to hear thoughts?

 

[hafizbat]

Fair warning, might ramble off here...

(1) Gal Godot as WW - cautiously optimistic, probably one of the better choices so far. Don't believe me? In the past, WB wanted Sandra Bullock in the role, then officially (100%) offered it to Jessica Biel in George Millers JL: Mortal, which eventually went to model Megan Gale. We've also had Adrianne palicki on TV. All hot women (Bullock included), only 1 can act. NONE fit the role of the exotic Amazonian woman.

That brings up another point. 4 candidates were up for the role of WW - Jaimie Alexander, Gal Godot, Olga Kurylenko and Elodie Yung. At the risk of sounding prejudiced, do you notice the odd one out? Apart from Alexander, all the other actresses tested had foreign looks. So why was JA in the mix? Was she a studio choice (like Katie Holmes in BB or Garner in Daredevil), due to the potential success of Thor? If true, that means Godot was The FILMMAKERS choice (Like Craig for Bond, or Bale for Batman). Hmm...


(2) the announcement states that Godot will play WW - not Diana, or any other aliases. That suggests that unlike Star Trek Into Darkness or even Iron Man 2, the character 'reveal' will not be a big part of the film - her identity is recognised in the film.

The other part of WW's casting was that she would a love interest of Bruce Wayne. So either we have an IM2- type scenario where Batman slowly discovers who Diana/WW is in the film. The only problem with this? Batman is NOT the lead character in the film, IT IS A MOS SEQUEL (remember this.). What if Bruce and Diana are already aware of each other/have a history?

Then we have another trades report that the Flash will make an appearance in the film as well. Suddenly the film looks like a JL movie after all.

BUT the studio have kept saying it IS a MOS sequel, even registering domain names.


The final reports - the villains in the movie have NOT been confirmed, so we don't know about Lex, Metallo, Doomsday. So far, the only confirmed actor in contention is Callan Mulvey, someone who seems to only fit the role of Metallo. However, the casting has been regarded as THE villain, singular.


So put all this together, and what do you get? A JL movie?

No.


A Batman-Superman movie?


No.



A DCU starting film?

Unlikely.




How about.... A MOS sequel?



All you have to do is one thing...


Make Superman the 'villain'.


What if Flash, WW and Batman, etc. Are all aware of each other, and have decided to come to Metropolis to stop the threat of a 'Superman', a being who can kill people with his bare hands, and who's race tried to destroy the world?

What if Superman has to prove himself to these 'heroes', especially to the one who is most distrustful (and most human)?

What if eventually the need for Superman is established by the emergence of a new villain, that only he can stop?

THAT sounds like an MOS sequel to me...

Brilliant thinking. It would fit in perfectly to the Batman VS Superman title they chose to reveal...they could just have easily called it Batman AND Superman.

And to all those Super-fans who are worried that Superman will be the villain and he'll be seen in a negative light and yada yada, YOU'RE LOOKING AT IT WRONG.

Making Superman the villain could be a masterstroke.

1) It allows him to be seen as more than the boring boyscout, which is important if Superman is to reach the same level of popularity as Batman.

2) A masterstroke because it helps establish the Justice League in one fell swoop WITHOUT Bats, WW, Flash taking the movie away from Superman. The added bonus of seeing them conflict (which is a necessary step in building the team) without copying the Avengers style of heroes fighting without a great reason.

3) Perhaps most importantly, making Superman be the villain could potentially be the most genuine way to making him the hero he really is.

Think about it, what would be more substantial- Him earning people's trust by saving cats from trees, or him proving his true heroism to the real heavyweights who have actually been there, Batman and the others?

 

[MrsKent26]

or let people think how ever they want to

Calm yourself, man. I never told anyone to outright stop anything. I believe I said might. I suggested something that people can surely ignore if they want.

 

[roach]

Alright... Where's that can of Raid?

I cannot be killed by conventional means….
…however you can try and tell people not to get hyped up but when the title of this movie is revealed….when we get shots of the big three together…in costume…you'd have a better chance of trying to ice skate to the moon.

 

[lc23]

If you came away from after watching MoS with the opinion that Superman is some "boring boyscout," maybe it wasn't MoS you were watching.

 

[ChrisB]

on paper this film should be not just the biggest of 2015, but one of the biggest of all time. I'm talking avatar numbers, if executed right. if it doesn't get anywhere near that, it might be time for wb to find another director for justice league.

On paper, yes... but I don't think it'll be able to out gross The Avengers 2. The reaction to Man of Steel was too mixed, and The Avengers 2 is the follow up to one of the biggest movies of all time.

 

[roach]

Come yourself, man. I never told anyone to outright stop anything. I believe I said might. I suggested something that people can surely ignore if they want.

I have set my heart upon hyping you for this movie…i will not be satisfied until you are eagerly counting down the days until Fandango puts the tickets on sale.

 

[ЯɘvlveR]

On paper, yes... but I don't think it'll be able to out gross The Avengers 2. The reaction to Man of Steel was too mixed, and The Avengers 2 is the follow up to one of the biggest movies of all time.

i use to think that too, but given the reaction to iron man 3 by some fans (don't think it as worthy of making as much as it did) and thor 2's box office numbers not getting anywhere near the same, I'm not so sure it makes that much more than the first avengers film. of course, if it's a great and exciting film all of that changes, and the same goes for BvS.

 

[jmc]

on paper this film should be not just the biggest of 2015, but one of the biggest of all time. I'm talking avatar numbers, if executed right. if it doesn't get anywhere near that, it might be time for wb to find another director for justice league.

Better not start counting your chickens yet mate. MoS had a world of issues.

 

[ЯɘvlveR]

Better not start counting your chickens yet mate. MoS had a world of issues.

i know. i wasn't blind to them.

 

[MrsKent26]

I have set my heart upon hyping you for this movie…i will not be satisfied until you are eagerly counting down the days until Fandango puts the tickets on sale.

 

[jmc]

Look, if the execution is right it can be a masterpiece, but that goes for any film. Frankly the talent involved doesn't inspire confidence that they can get the execution right.

 

[MrsKent26]

Indeed. Goyer doesn't have a 2 billion movie in him. And everyone at WB seems blind to his flaws and refuses to give him a co-writer.

 

[roach]

I never lie….

 

[DJThrawn]

Anybody give any thought that a movie with Wonder Woman in it will come out when presumably Hillary Clinton is running for president? I can definitely see the news and perhaps the campaign or other forms of pop culture alluding between the two and giving more exposure to the character of Wonder Woman. Sorry, a little off topic but may play into the movie's promotion and ultimately the character's benefit as far as GA knowledge is concerned.

 

[InJustice]

more people saw avengers then most of the phase one films, so why would BvS need bale in order to to do tdk numbers? it's still batman and he's still the cash cow.

I didn't say they needed Bale, I said that it would've been preferred by fans since the filmmakers would build on a familiar foundation. Plus, the general audience loved Christian Bale so that definitely would've helped box office #s when you take into account that TDK, TDKR made the majority of its money from people who weren't well-versed into the Batman lore.

Also, Batman isn't always a cash cow, it depends on the story it has to tell and the artistic direction. Otherwise, George Clooney + Batman should've been a blockbuster hit.

which is why i said executed properly. stuff, and there's been nothing but that with the casting of affleck and gadot.

Even when executed properly, the maximum that CBMs make is the billion dollar mark (and I say this because I think Avengers, TDK, TDKR are fantastic films and they still didn't get any more than 1.5bil).

WOM for casting doesn't always translate to strong/weak WOM for when the film is released. For instance, reviews and watching the performance can affect one's perception of the actor, and whether he/she is fit to play the character.

and i disagree. titanic was what it was, but avatar is a fantasy film.

With a comic book film, you limit yourself to specific characters and stories that won't always appeal to the mainstream (and with how DC/Marvel are at risk for oversaturating the market, fatigue may be a factor for future films). At least fantasy/fictional history isn't as limiting and lend itself to more creative freedom and originality than comic book movies, which in turn can help box office #s.

you edited this very post you quoted where i took back why i said.

i was wrong? what do you want? a cookie?

No, I edited the post to add that because it is delusional. Wait until we see what is going on with the BvS stuff (first trailer, poster, etc) until we start declaring that this should be a 2bil movie. In fact, there were people who were so hyped up about Man of Steel that they expected it to be another billion dollar hit and were disappointed.

 

[jmc]

Indeed. Goyer doesn't have a 2 billion movie in him. And everyone at WB seems blind to his flaws and refuses to give him a co-writer.

I don't think he's as bad as others make it out, and I do believe his heart is in the right place.

 

[MrsKent26]

I never lie….

You may not lie, but you'll likely fail this little mission of yours. My hype died a painful death with this WW announcement. I just don't want JL right now and I'm still convinced that's what this movie will be.

 

[hafizbat]

If you came away from after watching MoS with the opinion that Superman is some "boring boyscout," maybe it wasn't MoS you were watching.

Not specific to MoS, but the character of Superman in general. MoS was a big step in bringing him to the 21st century, no doubt.

 

[Wheels]

Brilliant thinking. It would fit in perfectly to the Batman VS Superman title they chose to reveal...they could just have easily called it Batman AND Superman.

And to all those Super-fans who are worried that Superman will be the villain and he'll be seen in a negative light and yada yada, YOU'RE LOOKING AT IT WRONG.

Making Superman the villain could be a masterstroke.

That's not really a villain though. You're only a villain if the audience watching sees you as a villain.

 

[MrsKent26]

I don't think he's as bad as others make it out, and I do believe his heart is in the right place.

I do too. He seems very nice and enthusiastic about these movies. And he does try. But his flaws seem overlooked by both himself and WB and that bugs me. I find him inconsistent, but not bad. He has good story ideas, but he just cannot do dialogue. He could be fantastic with someone to help him with that, but it doesn't seem like he'll get this help. He needs either a co-writer or a director that knows how dialogue should flow.

 

[roach]

You may not lie, but you'll likely fail this little mission of yours. My hype died a painful death with this WW announcement. I just don't want JL right now and I'm still convinced that's what this movie will be.

I may fail but like Superman I will never give up.
Read mad-sci's post a few posts up about how all this could fit into a Man of Steel sequel while still putting the focus on Superman.

You wonder why I am so optimistic about this movie. I have hope. Something I learned from Superman…from the movies…and comics and cartoons. Superman's theme was about hope way before Goyer opened up Final Draft on his laptop. Superman sees the good in humanity…even after we have disappointed him over and over again. This movie may disappoint…it may be the worst thing ever committed to film…I hope it's not. I'd rather live my life with the belief that on July 17th, 2015 I will witness something I always dreamed about as a child than upset for two years in the belief that they screwed it up. That is why I am optimistic for this film. I choose to be…

 

[jmc]

I do too. He seems very nice and enthusiastic about these movies. And he does try. But his flaws seem overlooked by both himself and WB and that bugs me. I find him inconsistent, but not bad. He has good story ideas, but he just cannot do dialogue. He could be fantastic with someone to help him with that, but it doesn't seem like he'll get this help. He needs either a co-writer or a director that knows how dialogue should flow.

I agree with the inconsistency thing. The thing is when he was with Nolan he was with a director who had a far better understanding of story telling and film making than what Snyder does. That's not to say Nolan was perfect, Rises is proof that that even the best slip up, but he's a far stronger film maker and is able to do a course correction if need be. Snyder is also inconsistent. The fear is whether they are taking on far more than they can possibly chew.

 

[ЯɘvlveR]

I didn't say they needed Bale, I said that it would've been preferred by fans since the filmmakers would build on a familiar foundation. Plus, the general audience loved Christian Bale so that definitely would've helped box office #s when you take into account that TDK, TDKR made the majority of its money from people who weren't well-versed into the Batman lore.

batman has been around for a long time. he is an icon.

Also, Batman isn't always a cash cow, it depends on the story it has to tell and the artistic direction. Otherwise, George Clooney + Batman should've been a blockbuster hit.

he's always been a cash cow. even that turd sandwhich didn't lose as much money as it should have.

Even when executed properly, the maximum that CBMs make is the billion dollar mark (and I say this because I think Avengers, TDK, TDKR are fantastic films and they still didn't get any more than 1.5bil).

avengers was the first in 3 with which the films preceding it didn't break the 650 million mark. all of these films have been making more money then they had previously. it's just as likely that they'll keep making more money if the quality of the films improve. it's like anything else.

WOM for casting doesn't always translate to strong/weak WOM for when the film is released. For instance, reviews and watching the performance can affect one's perception of the actor, and whether he/she is fit to play the character.

word of mouth is word of mouth. that's all anyone who talks about these films has been talking about. people who don't care about these films are still talking about affleck. batman went from making 300 million with begins, to making a billion from word of mouth about heath's casting and performance. to use their cliche, any press is good press in hollywood.

With a comic book film, you limit yourself to specific characters and stories that won't always appeal to the mainstream (and with how DC/Marvel are at risk for oversaturating the market, fatigue may be a factor for future films). At least fantasy/fictional history isn't as limiting and lend itself to more creative freedom and originality than comic book movies, which in turn can help box office #s.

i don't buy the saturation of the market angle. if the film is good, and it's marketed properly, it will make money. of course, it usually takes a phenomena something different for it to exceed expectations. it's batman superman and wonder woman on film for the first time. that's going to get alot of people interested and excited.

No, I edited the post to add that because it is delusional. Wait until we see what is going on with the BvS stuff (first trailer, poster, etc) until we start declaring that this should be a 2bil movie. In fact, there were people who were so hyped up about Man of Steel that they expected it to be another billion dollar hit and were disappointed.

i said i was wrong. i was wrong. i was under the impression that it had made a little more then 2 billion dollars, as it turns out, they where closer to 3 billion. my bad.