BvS All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - - - - - - - - - - - Part 46

[Llama_Shepherd]

So if the world engine thing was after the fight with Zod somehow the movie would have been better? No

It may have. Or at least lessened criticism of placing Superman in a literal fight to the death.

Had Superman fought Zod before the World Engine there's a "race against time" aspect present in films across genres, and at least 90% of superhero films.

Plus almost everything he states come directly from the villains in the film why he is trying to seperate physical confrontation with everything else the villain does is nonsensical

The World Engine [or insert any deus ex machina] is not something the villain does. It is something they initiate, sure, but narratively it is separate from Zod [insert villain].

 

[Lencho01]

Nothing, I think it's moreso about character development than anything.

What happens when someone is forced into killing an enemy in order to save billions of lives? I think that would reinforce those standards and ideals even more and act as a learning experience.

It's hard for me to view it that way since I felt the Clark/Superman they gave us wasn't much of a character. How the killing was dealt with didn't work for me, Snyder's answer as to why they did really confused me too. And just the general idea that no film is really guaranteed a sequel.

Possible explanations (from my own, personal wikipedia):

1. The filmmakers didn't know what they were doing. "Why can't he just kill him? Just kidding...or am I? Yeah, let's just kill Zod and see what happens. We can make up excuses later in interviews...or explore it in the sequel."

Scene from Superman vs Batman:

Superman (whining): "I'm sooo depressed! I killed Zod...oh, how could I..."

Lois Lane: "Hi Clark, I made some pizza."

Superman: "Pizza!t:"

2. It's "unrealistic". We don't want our heroes to save cats from trees, collect money for the Salvation Army or pick flowers for their girlfriends (half-joking). Movies about flying aliens in tights shouldn't be fun...a superhero movie should be more serious than a regular movie. "Perfect" heroes are boring! We want superpowered versions of ourselves.

3. Goyer didn't have a choice, he had to kill Zod to save the family.

But seriously, I wouldn't mind Zod dying if it was done better. It could have been accidental..."Oh no, I guess I'll have to be more careful from now on!" Or they could have saved it for the third movie or something? Superman is forced to kill Zod/Doomsday/Mutated Otis, and retires for a while.

I don't buy the "he had to go Mortal Kombat on Zod's neck to know that it's wrong to kill! He's new at this!" If Pa Kent hadn't been such a moral relativist, Superman wouldn't have to find it out the hard way.

Maybe Pa Kent will show up as the real Zod later.

There's also the fact that the death was pretty much tacked on. Zod wasn't originally going to die, just go back into the PZ with the others. You can see how much that ending fits better with what we got. Maybe they should've changed up the whole third act to work better.

 

[Naked Shia]

since it can still be a threat once the villain is beaten (see the dark knight rises for instance).

 

[roach]

wow what have I walked into...

 

[Llama_Shepherd]

since it can still be a threat once the villain is beaten (see the dark knight rises for instance).

Leo, you have got to be the best person on the Hype to disagree with.

 

[roach]

Superman won best hero at the MTV awards last night...he beat out Iron Man and Thor

 

[snpklsdmbldr]

I think they thought at first that all of the kryptonians are inside the Black Zero ship so it's logical to drop (which latter on crash) the cargo of the plane with the kryptonian ship to suck them all back to the phantom zone. when Zod was with not them, Supes had to fight and inevitably kill him.

not to mention if Supes fought with Zod first other Kryptonians can help Zod and it will be like battle of smallville all over again while in the background the whole earth being terraformed. makes sense to disable the world engine first to disable the shield of the Black Zero in the other side of the world so they can drop the kryptonian ship and hope all of them are sucked back to the phantom zone.

 

[X Knight]

Superman won best hero at the MTV awards last night...he beat out Iron Man and Thor

 

[Chip Chipperson]

Superman won best hero at the MTV awards last night...he beat out Iron Man and Thor

that is pretty awesome that he beat out RDJ, thought for sure he'd win in a landslide.

Glad I voted for Cav-El, guy deserves it.

 

[Naked Shia]

I've been reading trinity war again. I like it even more than the first time. I love how Bats genuinely care for Supes. Since it will be their last meeting, they won't immediatly share such strong bonds, but I hope when the end credits roll, they will at least be loyal allies, to the point where we'll be like "gosh, Those two need to be in another movie together".

 

[roach]

Also there is a reason why Superman fights Zod after the World Engine is destroyed. In this moment we see the hero and villain in different places than how they started and how they reacted to it.
Clark/Kal has gone through his life with no purpose. He doesn't know what he is supposed to do or what he is meant for. Sure he saves people from time to time but it was not his main mission. When he sets himself up in opposition to Zod...for the first time in his life he becomes a superhero. Clark/Kal now has a purpose...which is borne out in the scene when his mom asks "What are you gonna do when you're not saving the world?"
Contrast that with Zod. Since Zod was introduced he has had a plan....defend Krypton. Sure his means are a little extreme but he is doing what he feels is right. In the Krypton scenes he is defending Krypton from the short sighted politicians who destroyed it...in his search for the Codex he is trying to defend Krypton from extinction. At the end of the film when everything is gone but Zod he no longer has a purpose...a mission. Instead of being like Clark and looking for a new purpose...Zod chooses to destroy everything.
Zod is unable to look past what he was created to do thus illustrating why Jor'el said that everyone on Kryton was already past saving. Could a kryptonian created to be a politician come to earth and not feel the need to lead...thus putting Earth in the same bad situation Krypton was in?

 

[MrsKent26]

The nice young gentleman with the nice old father, who stops and helps everyone, even though he's in the middle of something...I know I'm going to be murdered for mentioning these movies here, but Superman 1978 and Superman Returns got it right I didn't expect the same stuff all over again, but I didn't recognise Pa Kent at all in MOS. All I could see was a suicidal mr grumpypants who mentally abused Clark. "Don't save people, or the scary people from our government will cut you to pieces! Oh, there's a tornado! I'll be right back, have to die a meaningless death now."

But enough of that.

1978 superman killed Zod too. With a smile. If you call that "doing it right," I find that a tad odd. But to each his own.

 

[113]

Superman won best hero at the MTV awards last night...he beat out Iron Man and Thor

Looks like the movie isn't as hated as some would have us believe. Do ya thing Goyer & Snyder, do ya thing

 

[MrsKent26]

Superman won best hero at the MTV awards last night...he beat out Iron Man and Thor

That's great. Good for supes!

 

[Rowsdower!]

Yeah, Superman Returns really "got it right" by making Superman a lifeless character with no personality who cares about humanity SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO much more than the Man of Steel version that he ditched Earth for five years without so much as telling anyone other than his mom and killed a bunch of Luthor's henchmen when he lifted that giant island out of the Atlantic.

 

[Superman_200]

1978 superman killed Zod too. With a smile. If you call that "doing it right," I find that a tad odd. But to each his own.

A powerless Zod at that when he had no need at all to kill him/break his hand since Zod was now an ordinary human being.

 

[STARMAN]

Superman dumped Nuclear Man into a nuclear power plant and incinerated him.

 

[Llama_Shepherd]

Also there is a reason why Superman fights Zod after the World Engine is destroyed. In this moment we see the hero and villain in different places than how they started and how they reacted to it.
Clark/Kal has gone through his life with no purpose. He doesn't know what he is supposed to do or what he is meant for. Sure he saves people from time to time but it was not his main mission. When he sets himself up in opposition to Zod...for the first time in his life he becomes a superhero. Clark/Kal now has a purpose...which is borne out in the scene when his mom asks "What are you gonna do when you're not saving the world?"
Contrast that with Zod. Since Zod was introduced he has had a plan....defend Krypton. Sure his means are a little extreme but he is doing what he feels is right. In the Krypton scenes he is defending Krypton from the short sighted politicians who destroyed it...in his search for the Codex he is trying to defend Krypton from extinction. At the end of the film when everything is gone but Zod he no longer has a purpose...a mission. Instead of being like Clark and looking for a new purpose...Zod chooses to destroy everything.
Zod is unable to look past what he was created to do thus illustrating why Jor'el said that everyone on Kryton was already past saving. Could a kryptonian created to be a politician come to earth and not feel the need to lead...thus putting Earth in the same bad situation Krypton was in?

If Zod were shown to be a good person making tough descisions (over the exposition shortly before the fight) before he decides (for a second time) to murder all the humans, we could have had a better ending, one that is more about the philosophy of who Superman is, much like the ending of The Dark Knight.

Instead, Zod is presented as racist, genocidal, murderous, treasonous, petty and megalomaniacal. Someone quoted Stalin previously and he is very reminiscent of authoritarian dictators, so this turning of the tables, whilst thematically present (and still could be in a revised manner) it's not compelling on a character level.

 

[DorneyDave]

-pops in-

Still no news? Man of Steel arguments?


-leaves-

 

[super85]

1978 superman killed Zod too. With a smile. If you call that "doing it right," I find that a tad odd. But to each his own.

Depends on the version. Its a fun little piece of trivia that some versions have them arrested by the "arctic patrol" .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mA5d66AnT7s

 

[Goshdarn Batman]

1978 superman killed Zod too. With a smile. If you call that "doing it right," I find that a tad odd. But to each his own.

I didn't mention Superman II

 

[green]

Superman won best hero at the MTV awards last night...he beat out Iron Man and Thor

On a show that gives Mila Kunis best villain that sadly means very little.

 

[Goshdarn Batman]

Depends on the version. Its a fun little piece of trivia that some versions have them arrested by the "arctic patrol" .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mA5d66AnT7s

Isn't that version in the script as well? Wonder why it was cut.

 

[Pants Under Underpants]

I actually thought of this as an alternative to get more diversity.

In hindsight, its kinda cynical to treat Miss Martian like something on a checklist.

I wouldn't say cynical. I'd call it creating diversity for a wider interest and fan base. It would make it more about the team up than a sauaage fest. And before you guys attack, let me say that I'd be completely happy with the traditional seven. I just don't see it happening. Plus, i really liked her on Young Justice.

 

[Lencho01]

Isn't that version in the script as well? Wonder why it was cut.

Maybe they didn't think the audience would come to the conclusion that Superman and Lois killed Zod and co. with smiles on their faces due to having a good idea of who they were as characters.