Fantastic Four reborn! - Part 2

[Artistsean]

The problem is Mole Man is rather bland and one dimensional villain in trhe comics, his monsters are more threatening then he is, there is nothing personally about him. He needs a better motive then "I'm evil because pretty girls won't go out with me and now I want to take over the world" you need a villain with more compelling goals and back story then that.

Frankly it would be hard for a lot of villains mentioned to carry a movie. Red Ghost is a political stereotype rather then a character, he seemed to be created more as a propaganda piece then a compelling character.

Wizard is the very definition of cliched super villain, who is one dimensional, too evil to be sympathetic, but too silly too be scary or threatening and has goals that don't make a lot of sense and aren't interesting. Wizard just seems to be jealous of the FF and unlike Doom he has no real reason for it. Really Wizard just seems like a poor man's Dr. Doom, without the class, epic back story and developed history with the FF. Wizard only became even remotely interesting recently after he had a mental break down and I'm not sure how they would incorporate that into the movie.

I think if they are going to have Mole Man as the villain, they need to give him more of a build up and compelling origin then the one FF#1, which only lasted a page. Frankly I think even Ultimate Mole Man is a step up from 616 Mole Man, he more of buildup before he became a villain then he did in the 616 comics.

In the Red Ghost's case they would have to alter him a little. Make it not about communism but instead just about him and Reed being rival scientists. Maybe have him steal data from Reed's NASA computers or hack into them or something. Maybe he is even connected to why they went up in the first place, because Reed needed to run the experiment before the thief did and took the credit. (just some ideas) What is interesting about him is he recreates the accident that created the Fantastic Four but he does it with lab monkeys. They are like an evil version of the Fantastic Four. He would be like the Iron Monger in Iron Man 1, Abomination in the Incredible Hulk, etc.

It depends on how you present them, what you emphasize I guess. With the Wizard they would probably minimize his helmet and emphasize the idea mentioned about him knowing he isn't as smart and Reed. Didn't the Wizard in the recent comics become a cult leader. Maybe play that up.

With the Mole Man I can see them having it be a Thing story, Thing already feels like he is ugly and not human in a group that isn't bad to look at. He feels like they got great powers and still look human while he was turned into a monster. Then they meet Mole Man, who Thing can relate to. Also use the idea that he is stealing entire cities, and causing massive Earthquakes, show he is a super scientist like Reed. Perhaps add a bit to his story too without changing too much. Perhaps the way to go with Mole Man is to make him a tragic villain like Dr. Freeze.

Of coarse there are tons of villains to choose from. Mad Thinker and his Awesome Android. Diablo, who uses technology and pretends its magic (the story could be like the comic, he uses his "magic" to cure disease, grow crops, stop wars, etc. But its all a hoax and short lived solutions so he can take over control.)
Celestials, Kree, Molecule Man (a normal man who through science becomes the most powerful man in the world), Skrulls and the Super Skrull, Namor and Atlantis, Annihilus and the Negative Zone (inlcude Blastaar), the Inhumans (where Maximus is the real enemy), Psycho Man, Puppet Master, Thanos, Rama Tut/Kang/Scarlet Centurian, etc.
There are lots of characters with the potential to be interesting (at least) villains in the films. And thats not including Dr. Doom and his Doombots and Latveria.

You can have each movie take the FF on a different adventure to different locations with possibly an large overall story arc. They can go to Monster Island in movie 1, Atlantis in movie 2, Space in movie 3, Latveria in movie 4, something like that.

I could actually see Namor being the major villain in FF 1. He wages war on the surface world, his Atlantian forces rise up and attack all around the world, or all along the coast. They have flying ships and giant sea monsters. The FF are at the front and go toe to toe with Namor. Thing battles him with ever ounce of strength he has. This movie we see Namor, 1st time in any movie, as a bad guy. We see Atlantis, and stuff...
but all this, villains and such, depends on how the FF would be approached. If their movie theme is super science then maybe Namor and Atlantis wouldnt be the best way to start off. Maybe for that you want villains like Wizard, Diablo, Mad Thinker, Dr. Doom, Psycho Man, etc. More science based enemies.

 

[Endeavor]

Communism is a supervillain in and of itself, it doesn't need Red Ghost to make it more evil.

 

[metaphysician]

Yeah, but there is too much apologia for it these days. I don't think a straight out "evil reds" plot would work, even if you did set the movie back in the 60s. Which would be a bad idea, IMO, the Fantastic Four's core concept works fine in the modern era, you don't have to go retro with it.

 

[Endeavor]

I agree about having the movie take place in the present.

 

[Artistsean]

You could do a Red Ghost story without him being Communist. He could just be a Russian Scientist. He could even be a Russian Scientist who was living in America. Not have him connected to the Russian Government at all.
The point of him is he was able to recreate the accident that gave the FF their powers. He turns him and his team of lab apes into the evil FF.
The movie could use him to show the parallels to the Fantastic Four. It could even be a way to do an origin story without doing one. We see him go up and get powers, maybe we only see some short flashbacks of the FF going up, and we are told he got his powers the same way.

 

[MarvelKnight]

The problem is Mole Man is rather bland and one dimensional villain in trhe comics.

That's true, Mole Man could definitely use an Oswald Cobblepot type of re-invention. Definitely have to make him more evil.

 

[Franklin Richards]

The cool thing about the Red Ghost is, besides the ape/science/russkie thing, is his power. He can do all those things that Kitty Pride would never do because of her ethics.

Red Ghost could phase someone halfway through stuff and it would be awesome.

 

[Artistsean]

Red Ghost would be a cool movie villain.

Mole Man, maybe is mentally unstable because he has basically lived all alone for most of his life. He went into hiding and found the Island of Monsters where he lives underground with the Mole People. He commands them but can't really talk to them. He is alone. Thats gonna mess you up to be that isolated for that long, maybe.
So he is this guy with an army of monsters and mole people, and technology that is so advanced it can sink an entire city, and he is mentally unbalanced. He is like an insane king going to war.

 

[metaphysician]

I'm leery of Mole Man, because I really doubt you could do him as a convincing and threatening villain. You have a team of heroic adventurers with super powers, and their enemy is. . . a short blind guy? Yes, yes, monsters, but you need *somebody* to be the main antagonist, and they need to be both charismatic and credible.

 

[Franklin Richards]

It need not be a standard Battle Royale. All hope needs to be lost and then after everybody get's their butts handed to them by the Monster, the FF figures out that the Monster is just looking for her eggs or something. Or Mole Man has a gadget.. or whatever.


Mole Man could work.

 

[The Overlord]

Communism is a supervillain in and of itself, it doesn't need Red Ghost to make it more evil.

I'm sorry, most communist super villains are lame. They are very one dimensional villains and they have not been threatening since 1991. They are like Captain Planet villains, they are designed more to propaganda pieces then compelling villains in their own right. Let's face it Silver age comics did not engage in Orwellian level critique of communism. Usually it was just lazy writing, where writers couldn't be bothered to come up with an interesting motive for a villain, so villain would attack a hero because he was a communist.

A villain being a communist in of itself is not interesting, unless that is explored. Unless you explore the character beyond just being a communist, that character will not be interesting. You can't define someone solely based on their ideology, doing that doesn't create a character, it creates a caricature. That's not good writing and that doesn't create compelling character.

If Red Ghost is to be the villain, he should have character depth beyond a communist, perhaps an interesting back story, some explanation for his actions beyond being a communist.

People want more compelling villains and in the comics Red Ghost is not compelling or even relevant anymore. Politics aside, he is a dull character.

It need not be a standard Battle Royale. All hope needs to be lost and then after everybody get's their butts handed to them by the Monster, the FF figures out that the Monster is just looking for her eggs or something. Or Mole Man has a gadget.. or whatever.


Mole Man could work.

He could work, but it take a lot of work to make him work. In the comics there is nothing about him that is either personally threatening or compelling. He never he had real chemistry as a rival with any of the FF and his motive is pretty bad. Again I perfer Ultimate Mole Man, he had more of a set up then 616 Mole Man did. If Mole Man is going to carry a movie, he needs to more compelling as a character and have better chemistry as a villain with the FF, not just a generic villain with a device. He is a sympathetic villain, a really evil villain or something else? A lame villain can hurt a movie, look at Hector Hammond in Green Lantern.

 

[Endeavor]

I'm sorry, most communist super villains are lame. They are very one dimensional villains and they have not been threatening since 1991. They are like Captain Planet villains, they are designed more to propaganda pieces then compelling villains in their own right. Let's face it Silver age comics did not engage in Orwellian level critique of communism. Usually it was just lazy writing, where writers couldn't be bothered to come up with an interesting motive for a villain, so villain would attack a hero because he was a communist.

A villain being a communist in of itself is not interesting, unless that is explored. Unless you explore the character beyond just being a communist, that character will not be interesting. You can't define someone solely based on their ideology, doing that doesn't create a character, it creates a caricature. That's not good writing and that doesn't create compelling character.

If Red Ghost is to be the villain, he should have character depth beyond a communist, perhaps an interesting back story, some explanation for his actions beyond being a communist.

People want more compelling villains and in the comics Red Ghost is not compelling or even relevant anymore. Politics aside, he is a dull character.

You misunderstood my comment. I did not say Red Ghost being a communist was enough to make him a villain.
I was stating my opinion on that political philosophy.

 

[metaphysician]

Well, an easy motivation/personality for the Red Ghost would be "kind of like Reed Richards, only completely without ethics." Make the guy a product of the Soviet science cities, the kind of guy who wouldn't blink twice at people dying in his experiments. This works even if you set the movie in the present day, as the guy can be on the older side easily enough.

So, like Reed, he wants to study the results of the cosmic ray accident/whatever that gave the Fantastic Four powers. Unlike Reed, he's willing to use up and burn out test subjects in failed efforts to duplicate it. Presumably, after he semi-perfects his own process, he creates the Super-Apes because apes are easier to brainwash than humans, or something. Or alternatively, have him replace the Wizard as creator of the Frightful Four.

 

[gugumugats]

If this is an origin re-telling, tie in the the Negative Zone to their origin and make Annihilus the villain. Make it kind of like a Frankenstein type story where Reed has to realize the consequences of his discoveries or something (the Fantastic Four and bringing the hordes of the Negative Zone upon Earth).

 

[Artistsean]

Not saying he has to be the 1st villain in the reboot, but Red Ghost could be a scientist who recreates Reed's powers and gains the ability to be a ghost (Kitty Pryde's powers) and maybe because of these powers and his control over his super apes the power goes to his head. Not saying I liked this movie but for a similar example Hollow Man with Kevin Beacon. This guy gets this power and sees it as a chance to do whatever he wants because no one could stop him... still didn't like the movie. But this Red Ghost could have similar motivations. And not saying that Communism should be his motivation but maybe his thoughts could be that he wanted his homeland Russia (not communism) to have their own Fantastic Four. Similar to how everyone in Iron Man 2 was trying to create their own Iron Man. Or how in Ultimate comics everyone was trying to recreate the Super Soldier experiment, leading to the Green Goblin, the Hulk, Spider-Man, and more.
Perhaps Red Ghost was simply trying to recreate the FF for Russia. But the powers give him an excuse to be cruel. His motivations could even be political, and once he gets powers he sees it as a chance to get deep into politics, but is still cruel.

Mole Man could be creepy. He could 1st attack, the FF go to stop him and are over powered by the monsters. They get to know who he is and see him as a tragic villain, even the Thing relates to him and could think about switching sides. Then he shows his true intentions being driven by greed and insanity. He could be mean and vicious. And at the end in the final climactic scene he is completely loosing it and is willing to destroy himself, his monsters, and all his mole people, just to destroy the FF and the surface world. He could sort of be a parallel to people in school who are picked on and turn around and do something horrific. (which was also what Peter Parker originally was meant to be like, "Will Peter now use his powers to become a villain because he was bullied?"

The FF could also fight the Skrulls, and their Super Skrull, maybe in outer space orbiting Earth. They could also meet the Kree, the Watcher, and the Celestials. Their adventures could take them farther and farther out into space and the fantastic. Journey into the Negative Zone and face Annihilus and Blastaar and their forces.
I think they should eventually meet Dr. Doom, and like the Joker are devastated by him and his actions. They could face the Inhumans and find out the real enemy is Maximus.
I wish they could finally do a good Galactus movie but I think people will not want another Silver Surfer movie.

The over all theme of the movies could be that Man kind is on the verge of space travel and having other aliens travel to Earth and the FF become their protection from that and their gateway to all that. Sort of like Ben 10 in the cartoons or Dr. Who in the tv series.

 

[bubbadoom]

If they are going to use Wizard as the main villain for an FF movie, they will have to do something to make him less bland and more compelling, change the character a bit from the comics, like what they did with Whiplash and Sebastian Shaw.

At least we can agree upon this - as I have said many time, if they can make some one as lame as Whiplash into the cool villain he was in IM2, then the Wizard should not be a problem at all. Any of his "faults" you have outlined can easily be addressed by a screen writer worth his salt. Visually he is more interesting than Puppet Master, Mad Thinker, the Red Ghost, etc. [I still don't see the "phallic" nature of his helmet - but to each his own] and his body armor can easily be enhanced to make it cooler while still keeping true to Kirby.

 

[bubbadoom]

The reason the Red Ghost was "Red" was because he was a commie - and just because the USSR is gone, that does not mean he could not be a commie from China or North Korea - NK would probably be better and more topical since they are pretty much out of control with all the b.s. they have been pulling lately. Aren't the on the brink of being able to put a rocket in orbit which gives them the tech to launch a nuke anywhere on earth - sounds like a potential problem to me and something that could easily be used as a starting point for Red Ghost. Again, he's not my first choice for someone to build a movie around, but he might work well as a pre-title or secondary villain.

 

[Artistsean]

Exactly, many of these characters, Red Ghost, Wizard, and others, can be easily fixed up by a screen writer.
Red Ghost's name could come from his homemade space suit being red and now thats all the clothing he has because of his powers (because his space suit was effected like he was or something). So when ht makes his move and is seen by authorities he is called the Red Ghost, or he gives himself that name because his red uniform and it sounds menacing.

Should the FF have a direction to all their films? An end point?
like they start with an Earth menace like Monster Island or the Red Ghost,
go to the Negative Zone and fight Annihilus,
travel to space and fight Skrulls, and then face the Kree and the Celestials or Thanos,
and then maybe bring them back to Earth to face Dr. Doom and hint at more adventures to come?

Sort of build up their adventures and discoveries and what they open themselves and Earth up to?

an idea for a future sequel to the reboot could include the Inhumans and the Kree.
The FF find the Inhumans and they are a group of super beings who are being experimented on by the Kree. (it would sort of be a reveal, who is behind this strange land? aliens manipulating human genetics.) So it becomes the Inhumans and the FF against the Kree aliens including Ronnin the Accuser, and the Supreme Intellegence. And perhaps it all leads to the Celestials coming and stopping the Kree, and its revealed that the Kree were experiments of the Celestials.
Of coarse the FF, and Reed, would have a much bigger part than just witnessing it all.
I am suggesting a story like this instead of a story where the FF fall into the Inhuman world and are stuck in the middle of an Inhumans Civil War between Blackbolt and Maximus. (and probably framed for an assassination attempt.) So instead the FF fall into a grand (and fantastic) series of experiments and aliens and genetic manipulation. It could start on Earth, go to a space station orbiting Earth, and then go further out than any human has gone before.

 

[Jordacar]

Tying the origin to the Negative Zone and Annihilus would be a great way to account for the heroes and villains appearing at around the same time. And it would certainly be more welcome than trying to shoehorn Doom into the origin, which never seems to work no matter how many times they try it.

 

[Artistsean]

Sounds perfect to me, The FF get their powers from the Negative Zone. They become celebrities. They then face off against Annihilus (and Blastaar) and Annihilus' army. They can fight him in both the Negative Zone and on Earth. When they save the day they become welcomed heroes and celebrities.
I'd even consider doing the Ultimate idea of having Doom as part of the team, but I would have him not gain any powers at all but a burned face. Then vanish back to Latveria (explained so no one wonders about him, not a plot hole). We then don't hear about him until another movie.
I love the idea that part of his hatred for Reed and the FF comes from jealousy that he was there but didn't get amazing powers like them.
(And I always liked the idea that the FF have a doorway to the Negative Zone in their home. Sort of like Orpheus having the doorway to the underworld place in his daughters closet.)

Spoiler

Its an amazing, gigantic, fantastic adventure with a weird zone/parallel reality, alien like creatures, fantastic scientific experiments, its all there.

and for the sequel I would want to see the FF find the Inhumans and then face the Kree and the Celestials (in my previously stated idea).

Spoiler

an idea for a future sequel to the reboot could include the Inhumans and the Kree.
The FF find the Inhumans and they are a group of super beings who are being experimented on by the Kree. (it would sort of be a reveal, who is behind this strange land? aliens manipulating human genetics.) So it becomes the Inhumans and the FF against the Kree aliens including Ronnin the Accuser, and the Supreme Intellegence. And perhaps it all leads to the Celestials coming and stopping the Kree, and its revealed that the Kree were experiments of the Celestials. (The Celestials would be experimenting on the Kree only, not to try and say they created humans and super humans. Just the Kree, ...and maybe the Skrulls...)
Of coarse the FF, and Reed, would have a much bigger part than just witnessing it all.
I am suggesting a story like this instead of a story where the FF fall into the Inhuman world and are stuck in the middle of an Inhumans Civil War between Blackbolt and Maximus. (and probably framed for an assassination attempt.) So instead the FF fall into a grand (and fantastic) series of experiments and aliens and genetic manipulation. It could start on Earth, go to a space station orbiting Earth, and then go further out than any human has gone before.

 

[metaphysician]

Okay, I changed my mind. Mole Man could totally work.

. . .if you cast Peter Dinklage, and give him full approval to chew scenery.

 

[Dark Raven]

Sounds perfect to me, The FF get their powers from the Negative Zone. They become celebrities. They then face off against Annihilus (and Blastaar) and Annihilus' army. They can fight him in both the Negative Zone and on Earth. When they save the day they become welcomed heroes and celebrities.

I'd even consider doing the Ultimate idea of having Doom as part of the team, but I would have him not gain any powers at all but a burned face. Then vanish back to Latveria (explained so no one wonders about him, not a plot hole). We then don't hear about him until another movie.
I love the idea that part of his hatred for Reed and the FF comes from jealousy that he was there but didn't get amazing powers like them.
(And I always liked the idea that the FF have a doorway to the Negative Zone in their home. Sort of like Orpheus having the doorway to the underworld place in his daughters closet.)

Spoiler

Its an amazing, gigantic, fantastic adventure with a weird zone/parallel reality, alien like creatures, fantastic scientific experiments, its all there.

and for the sequel I would want to see the FF find the Inhumans and then face the Kree and the Celestials (in my previously stated idea).

Spoiler

an idea for a future sequel to the reboot could include the Inhumans and the Kree.
The FF find the Inhumans and they are a group of super beings who are being experimented on by the Kree. (it would sort of be a reveal, who is behind this strange land? aliens manipulating human genetics.) So it becomes the Inhumans and the FF against the Kree aliens including Ronnin the Accuser, and the Supreme Intellegence. And perhaps it all leads to the Celestials coming and stopping the Kree, and its revealed that the Kree were experiments of the Celestials. (The Celestials would be experimenting on the Kree only, not to try and say they created humans and super humans. Just the Kree, ...and maybe the Skrulls...)
Of coarse the FF, and Reed, would have a much bigger part than just witnessing it all.
I am suggesting a story like this instead of a story where the FF fall into the Inhuman world and are stuck in the middle of an Inhumans Civil War between Blackbolt and Maximus. (and probably framed for an assassination attempt.) So instead the FF fall into a grand (and fantastic) series of experiments and aliens and genetic manipulation. It could start on Earth, go to a space station orbiting Earth, and then go further out than any human has gone before.

I suppose the Negative Zone could work if they say that Cosmic Rays have some strange effect on their bodies out there. I don't know what effect it would have on people in normal space. Did they even call it Cosmic Rays in the last 2 movies? That sounds as generic as saying "space rays".

However, why would Reed and friends even be exploring the Negative Zone in the first place as pre-superheroes? How would they have heard of it? Unless they're just exploring normal space and get pulled into some kind of black hole or worm hole and accidentally discover the Negative Zone. That would work better. It could accidentally open the portal to Annihilus and Blaastar, who would not have heard of Earth had it not been for this chance encounter.

 

[metaphysician]

Presumably because Reed built a negative zone portal, and wanted to see what was on the other side?

 

[bubbadoom]

However, why would Reed and friends even be exploring the Negative Zone in the first place as pre-superheroes? How would they have heard of it? Unless they're just exploring normal space and get pulled into some kind of black hole or worm hole and accidentally discover the Negative Zone. That would work better. It could accidentally open the portal to Annihilus and Blaastar, who would not have heard of Earth had it not been for this chance encounter.

Reed Richards discovered the Negative Zone - not in space but via a portal here on Earth - so that is why they would be exploring it. I also think it's important that HE finds it, not some recon Dr. Storm, or Dr. Doom, or anyone else - REED is the smart guy, HE needs to be doing all the smart stuff here!

 

[gugumugats]

Reed Richards discovered the Negative Zone - not in space but via a portal here on Earth - so that is why they would be exploring it. I also think it's important that HE finds it, not some recon Dr. Storm, or Dr. Doom, or anyone else - REED is the smart guy, HE needs to be doing all the smart stuff here!

Reed opening the portal to the Negative Zone and inadvertently inviting Annihilus also gives Reed another thing to feel guilty about (yay, more character development). Plus, as mentioned multiple times, the Negative Zone could be used to explain the FF's origins.

In the end though, I want an FF movie to be good sci-fi and have great dynamics between the characters.