The Dark Knight Rises Joseph Gordon-Levitt as John Blake

[Mr. Earle]

The lovely thing with Bruce is that it is story about a boy who lost his parents and never really knew how to deal with it until it consumed him.

Most comic book characters are sane and mentally stable(to an extent). But Bruce is a mad, violent weirdo in a city where he is constantly provoked to be just that. That's why I love 'A serious house on a serious earth' so much.

Hello there Frank Miller!

Batman is anything but a weirdo when 50% of the population runs around in spandex. Also, there have been many IN CANON comics (and Arkham Asylum isnt canon no matter how brilliant it might be) that show that Bruce knows how to deal with his parents death and is in fact a force for good, not vengeance.

Some proof:
Batman: Death and the Maidens
Batman: Return of Bruce Wayne
Batman: Inc (its not explored yet, but this whole story is about the idea that anyone can be Batman if he aspires to the same ideas. Its not about training, its not about fear. Proof: Darkseid's failed Bat-clones, Hurt's fake Batmen, etc)
Superman/Batman #76

 

[papie]

Hello there Frank Miller!

Batman is anything but a weirdo when 50% of the population runs around in spandex. Also, there have been many IN CANON comics (and Arkham Asylum isnt canon no matter how brilliant it might be) that show that Bruce knows how to deal with his parents death and is in fact a force for good, not vengeance.

Some proof:
Batman: Death and the Maidens
Batman: Return of Bruce Wayne
Batman: Inc (its not explored yet, but this whole story is about the idea that anyone can be Batman if he aspires to the same ideas. Its not about training, its not about fear. Proof: Darkseid's failed Bat-clones, Hurt's fake Batmen, etc)
Superman/Batman #76

I'll look into what you gave me.

But I would very much like to nuance the Frank Miller love.
I don't like All Star but I love Returns.

I'm not saying that what I'm proposing is the final, canon Batman, it's just the interpretation that I love most.

He is a vigilante who loves being pragmatic. He doesn't enjoy being violent, he likes the fact that if he is feared; he works. The symbol prevents crime because it isn't human(e) like the police is.
He is definitely insane as he is running a fool's errand, he is eradicating crime while at the same time giving inspiration to a far worse kind of crime. The Freaks, the selfish kind that become their desire to do evil stuff. The Harvey Dent who becomes a symbol of duality, the Joker who becomes a symbol of chaotic insanity, the Mad-hatter who becomes a symbol of the absurdity of the child.
Whatever the villain, I'd like to think they are insane. And that Batman is insane not because he is avenging his parents but because he devotes his life, body and wealth to battling crime.
While dressed up as a symbol of the fear for justice.

 

[Mr. Earle]

I'll look into what you gave me.

But I would very much like to nuance the Frank Miller love.
I don't like All Star but I love Returns.

I said that with tongue in cheek. t:

I'm not saying that what I'm proposing is the final, canon Batman, it's just the interpretation that I love most.

No problem mate, i'm only pointing out that canon Batman isnt that nutty anymore.

He is a vigilante who loves being pragmatic. He doesn't enjoy being violent, he likes the fact that if he is feared; he works. The symbol prevents crime because it isn't human(e) like the police is.
He is definitely insane as he is running a fool's errand, he is eradicating crime while at the same time giving inspiration to a far worse kind of crime. The Freaks, the selfish kind that become their desire to do evil stuff. The Harvey Dent who becomes a symbol of duality, the Joker who becomes a symbol of chaotic insanity, the Mad-hatter who becomes a symbol of the absurdity of the child.
Whatever the villain, I'd like to think they are insane. And that Batman is insane not because he is avenging his parents but because he devotes his life, body and wealth to battling crime.
While dressed up as a symbol of the fear for justice.

I love stories where Batman is insane himself, or its all a dillusion and stuff like that, but i couldnt handle it if it was canon and they printed all this grimdark every month.

 

[Mr. Earle]

You guys should check this out. It analyzes the logic behind Batman Inc and Morrison's meta. Check it out papie.

http://www.comicsalliance.com/2010/08/31/two-batmen-batman-inc/

When you get right down to it, these guys were never actually Batman, they were just guys in Batman costumes. And I think what sets Dick Grayson apart is something that Morrison's been getting at throughout his run: That it's Batman himself who makes the difference. The replacement Batmen are subjected to horrible tragedy in their past, either by chance or through the machinations of Dr. Hurt, who (like the Joker) believes that to be the essential ingredient for making Batman.

But with them, it doesn't work. Tragedy is the essential ingredient for making Batman out of Bruce Wayne, but what sets Dick Grayson, Batwoman and the Club of Heroes apart from their more sinister counterparts is that they get the ingredient necessary to make Batman out of someone else: the direct inspiration of Batman Himself.

​

And it's not limited to Morrison stories, either: Under Greg Rucka and JH Williams, Batwoman is shown to be a character who was denied her chance at putting her drive and desire for justice to work in a conventional way (in her case, by joining the Army), but was inspired to become a super-hero instead, adhering to Batman's code (as she says in "Detective" #857, "I'm always on the Batman rule, sir") as closely as she did the Military Code of Justice. It's the literalization of the idea that Batman exists to keep people from becoming victims, and in the process, he turns them into heroes.

​

I love it.
​

 

[Yurka]

Batman in general through any interpretation though I see as a much darker and tormented hero than all of the other mainstream superheroes. Some incarnations are more mentally stable than others but I dont believe any are "sane".

 

[Mr. Earle]

You cant be saying this, unless of course you dont know the meaning of the word sane. Obsessed and reclussive doesnt equal insane.

 

[Wolvieboy17]

Batman in general through any interpretation though I see as a much darker and tormented hero than all of the other mainstream superheroes. Some incarnations are more mentally stable than others but I dont believe any are "sane".

Well, Wolverine's whole personality is based around inner torment... And then there's the punisher, but I suppose he isn't technically a hero anyway.

 

[Yurka]

You cant be saying this, unless of course you dont know the meaning of the word sane. Obsessed and reclussive doesnt equal insane.

"free from mental derangement; having a sound, healthy mind"

Dressing up as a creature in an effort to terrify criminals doesnt sound sane to me, not to mention his troubled past and his "alternate" persona he created.

 

[Mr. Earle]

"free from mental derangement; having a sound, healthy mind"

Dressing up as a creature in an effort to terrify criminals doesnt sound sane to me,

He lives in a world full of superheroes dressed in spandex. He just happens to be themed after a bat. How is Blue Beetle sane but Batman isnt? Because Batman is more obsessed and devoted to the cause? That doesnt make him insane.

not to mention his troubled past

Everyone with a troubled past is now the Joker.

and his "alternate" persona he created.

What alternate persona?

 

[Yurka]

He lives in a world full of superheroes dressed in spandex. He just happens to be themed after a bat. How is Blue Beetle sane but Batman isnt? Because Batman is more obsessed and devoted to the cause? That doesnt make him insane.

Youre misinterpreting what I said, but for the sake of arguement Blue Beetle's mission is not to terrify criminals, nor is Spider-mans or most other creature based Superheroes. I actually think him being obsessed is the least prominent of his "mental illnesses".

Everyone with a troubled past is now the Joker.

Again, you misunderstood what I said, I never said he was insane, I said he was less mentally stable than most other superheroes. However, Post-Traumatic Stress can do that to people, not to mention the Guilt and Bereavement disorder that Bruce believed/believes its his fault his parents were murdered (and the often interpretations of them speaking to him), those can cause a person to become mentally unstable, not necessarily insane.

What alternate persona?

Flipping back and forth between Batman and Bruce, and the struggle with which is the true personality.

 

[HUMANIMAL]

mentaly sane or not....huh?
arent these so called superheroes just people who take the law in their own hands because something an inner force drives em?
i mean terrible things happen to people all the time but they dont decide to get armed and train alot to get revenge.
bruce could have become a righteous policeman instead...he he....
after seeing the vids of some dudes in costumes running around pretending to be a superhero a la kick ass, i really doubt that we can call em mentaly sane;-)
but hey whatever is normal to someone may be totaly wrong for someone else
batman is mentaly unstable...and thats exactly what i like about this character;-)

question who do you prefer more?
: mickey mouse or donald duck?

 

[Mr. Earle]

Youre misinterpreting what I said, but for the sake of arguement Blue Beetle's mission is not to terrify criminals, nor is Spider-mans or most other creature based Superheroes. I actually think him being obsessed is the least prominent of his "mental illnesses".

So he's using fear to scare criminals and get an advantage in battle. Did you know that the helmets of the ancient Greeks were designed to give them a scary appearence that would scare the enemy army? Same goes for Samurais and their masks. Would you call them insane too?

Again, you misunderstood what I said, I never said he was insane, I said he was less mentally stable than most other superheroes.

You said he wasnt sane, therefore insane. Canon Batman is just reclusive and obsessive. He is not Rorshach.

However, Post-Traumatic Stress can do that to people, not to mention the Guilt and Bereavement disorder that Bruce believed/believes its his fault his parents were murdered

He doesnt believe that. Nolan's Batman did because he asked his parents to leave the theatre early. Both Alfred and Ras set him straight.

those can cause a person to become mentally unstable, not necessarily insane.

I dont know if those terms are different, but in any case the key word is "can". Its not the case here. Batman isnt mentally unstable at least in canon and with the exception of the 90ies GRIMDARK EXTREEEEEME BULL****. He just isnt a happy go lucky guy like Wally West or Dick Grayson.

Also, there is a very good story dedicated to this issue. Detective 500 i think it was where Phantom Stranger takes Batman to an alternate universe where he gets the chance to save the Waynes. He does and so alternate Bruce isnt orphaned. Still, the experience changed him and we see him walking in the garden with his shadow looking like Batman's. Batman isnt Bruce Wayne lashing out. Its his means of doing good and battling evil. He might not lead a "normal" life like other superheroes who get married and have kids but i wouldnt call him unstable. He's like the geniuses who have no personal life because they re workaholics and stuff.

That doesnt mean he is delusional, paranoid, irrational or what have you. His judgement is perfectly fine and lately so is his mood.

Flipping back and forth between Batman and Bruce, and the struggle with which is the true personality.

Have you ever read a comic book? I mean i had my suspicions so far, but this forces me to believe you havent. Batman doesnt have two personalities. Only hack writers in the 90ies pulled this card and Morrison has been doing his best to cleanse all that crap. Every batman comic book that is considered good has not played this card. Its just crap characterization that came from writers taking Miller's idea and pushing it to the limit because they thought it was edgy and cool.

So are you going to base Batman's characterization on the most crappy decade of comics in general, or on his entire publication history?

 

[the amazing fro]

Batman's not mentally unstable because he dresses as a bat or tries to scare people. He's mentally unstable because he saw his parents SHOT DOWN IN FRONT OF HIM WHEN HE WAS CHILD.

Traumatic events like that nearly always mess people up and it certainly did. That moment destroyed the then "Bruce Wayne." Whatever Bruce Wayne could have been without Batman died that night along with his parents. He's a monomaniac reminiscent of Captain Ahab. He has one goal (an nigh impossible one at that): rid the world of all crime and injustice. His goal isn't one of revenge. Its prevention. To create a world where Batman wouldn't need to exist, where there would be no more little Bruce Wayne's of the world. Its extremely noble. But his obsession (which is a mental problem in itself) over something that is clearly impossible (and his paranoia, he plans for every possible situation- tower of babel, Batman RIP etc). perhaps lends the impression that he's not all there.
Don't get me wrong I don't want to paint him as a mental case, he's not, but to say he's perfectly 100% functioning well mentally I think is quite the overstatement.

I think this is sort of the importance of Robin since it sort of brought him back from the brink so to speak (though putting a child in danger is quite the testament to his "insanity) but that's another argument for another day).

 

[Mr. Earle]

Batman's not mentally unstable because he dresses as a bat or tries to scare people. He's mentally unstable because he saw his parents SHOT DOWN IN FRONT OF HIM WHEN HE WAS CHILD.

No. The event itself doesnt mean anything. Its the effects that matter and those vary from person to person.

But his obsession (which is a mental problem in itself) over something that is clearly impossible (and his paranoia, he plans for every possible situation- tower of babel,

Tower of Babel: A story about Batgod because writers misinterpreted Morrison's JLA Batgod as serious and not as self parody. It was successful, so clearly taking it 10 steps more to the edge must be 10 times cooler right?
Even so, anyone would have countermeasures in Batman's case. Superman has gone rogue multiple times. Wouldnt you make contigency plans against a guy that can crack the planet in half the next time he's mind controlled?

Batman RIP etc).

Why is preptime a bad thing?

Don't get me wrong I don't want to paint him as a mental case, he's not, but to say he's perfectly 100% functioning well mentally I think is quite the overstatement.

I'll give you that.

I think this is sort of the importance of Robin since it sort of brought him back from the brink so to speak (though putting a child in danger is quite the testament to his "insanity) but that's another argument for another day).

Superheroes that have kid sidekicks: Batman, Superman, Flash, Green Arrow, Wonder Woman, Aquaman, and many, many others.
Like with the "dresses like a bat, therefore he's nuts" arguement, the DC universe works in a different way than ours.

 

[Yurka]

So he's using fear to scare criminals and get an advantage in battle. Did you know that the helmets of the ancient Greeks were designed to give them a scary appearence that would scare the enemy army? Same goes for Samurais and their masks. Would you call them insane too?

You're trying to relate ancient world history to a fictional superhero in a fictional world?

You said he wasnt sane, therefore insane. Canon Batman is just reclusive and obsessive. He is not Rorshach

I dont know where your selective reading comprehension is pulling that from, I said he isn't mentally stable, and not exactly "sane", that doesn't mean hes bat-**** crazy and belongs next to the Joker.

He doesnt believe that. Nolan's Batman did because he asked his parents to leave the theatre early. Both Alfred and Ras set him straight.

Right.

I dont know if those terms are different, but in any case the key word is "can". Its not the case here. Batman isnt mentally unstable at least in canon and with the exception of the 90ies GRIMDARK EXTREEEEEME BULL****. He just isnt a happy go lucky guy like Wally West or Dick Grayson.

There are tons of different interpretations all considered "canon", my point was, way back when, that due to his history, and his clear and frequent evidence of mental illness that hes mentally unstable. Yet, once again, he isnt Joker-insane, but he isnt exactly healthy mentally.

Also, there is a very good story dedicated to this issue. Detective 500 i think it was where Phantom Stranger takes Batman to an alternate universe where he gets the chance to save the Waynes. He does and so alternate Bruce isnt orphaned. Still, the experience changed him and we see him walking in the garden with his shadow looking like Batman's. Batman isnt Bruce Wayne lashing out. Its his means of doing good and battling evil. He might not lead a "normal" life like other superheroes who get married and have kids but i wouldnt call him unstable. He's like the geniuses who have no personal life because they re workaholics and stuff.

Cool.

That doesnt mean he is delusional, paranoid, irrational or what have you. His judgement is perfectly fine and lately so is his mood.

Seems like you like you to believe your Batman is one way, and I believe he is another.

Have you ever read a comic book? I mean i had my suspicions so far, but this forces me to believe you havent. Batman doesnt have two personalities. Only hack writers in the 90ies pulled this card and Morrison has been doing his best to cleanse all that crap. Every batman comic book that is considered good has not played this card. Its just crap characterization that came from writers taking Miller's idea and pushing it to the limit because they thought it was edgy and cool.

So are you going to base Batman's characterization on the most crappy decade of comics in general, or on his entire publication history?

You seem to think that your opinion is canon, just because you prefer certain comics to others you think you have a better understanding of where Batman comes from psychologically. Believe it or not I have read a few you condescending troll. If you like Morrisons current run then great, but I think its awful. Morrison is fixing the "crap" of the 90's? Have you read any comics from the 90's? Some of Batmans greatest stories were from that "crap" period as you so brilliantly put it.

Its fine if you believe youre right, but dont try to pass your opinion off as fact or canon. You think Batmans sane, I think hes unstable but not insane. Theyre both opinions, and depending on which comics you read, one opinion might be more true than the other.

 

[the amazing fro]

No. The event itself doesnt mean anything. Its the effects that matter and those vary from person to person.

A child witnesses his parents murder.... he's going to be traumatized for life and he's going to carry that with him forever. Bruce obviously does- its been the main thing that's dictated his decisions for the rest of his life.

Tower of Babel: A story about Batgod because writers misinterpreted Morrison's JLA Batgod as serious and not as self parody

What makes you think Morrison's Batgod is a self parody? It was an easy way of legitimizing a powerless man on a team of superpowered people: making him smarter than everyone else

Even so, anyone would have countermeasures in Batman's case. Superman has gone rogue multiple times. Wouldnt you make contigency plans against a guy that can crack the planet in half the next time he's mind controlled?

Perhaps paranoid was too strong a word. Maybe overly cautious.

Superheroes that have kid sidekicks: Batman, Superman, Flash, Green Arrow, Wonder Woman, Aquaman, and many, many others.
Like with the "dresses like a bat, therefore he's nuts" arguement, the DC universe works in a different way than ours.

1. Most of them have superpowers
2. Bringing a teenager into a fight where they could lose there lives is a poor decision anyway whether you be superman or batman. So maybe they're all crazy.

 

[Wolverine1988]

The lovely thing with Bruce is that it is story about a boy who lost his parents and never really knew how to deal with it until it consumed him.

Most comic book characters are sane and mentally stable(to an extent). But Bruce is a mad, violent weirdo in a city where he is constantly provoked to be just that. That's why I love 'A serious house on a serious earth' so much.

I agree, but not tryin to be a hater but we haven't really seen that with Bales Batman yet.

We saw that in Keatons Batman but we haven't seen that with Bales Batman;s at all.


I am not trying to congure up a Keaton/Bale debate but IMO Bales Batman hasn't embodied that at all and has been a bit off a disapointment in Nolans movies.

 

[Yurka]

I agree, but not tryin to be a hater but we haven't really seen that with Bales Batman yet.

We saw that in Keatons Batman but we haven't seen that with Bales Batman;s at all.


I am not trying to congure up a Keaton/Bale debate but IMO Bales Batman hasn't embodied that at all and has been a bit off a disapointment in Nolans movies.

Agreed, Keaton was superb with regards to portraying a tormented soul, every scene he was in you knew there was some horrific trauma in his past.

 

[the amazing fro]

Its not been as overt a Keaton's was but I think its already present by the very nature and origin of the character.

 

[rogue trooper]

So, if Levitt is not playing Alberto Falcone, then who?

Maybe, Thomas Elliot. I also wouldn't be surprised if they decide to go with a younger Hugo Strange(hey, it's been done with Lex Luthor), so that could be it, also. Or, I daresay, The Joker in a small part.

 

[Doctor Jones]

I don't think Bruce is insane. He's obessive and driven. But that asks an interesting question on the inhabitants of Gotham itself and the heroes and villains who live in it. Just how sane or insane are these people? I've always interpreted the Joker as thinking what he does is perfectly sane, but to everyone else, it's insane. Citizens think of both men as insane. Everything branches out into a series of questions for everyone. The city of Gotham itself. How sane are these people in living in such a place? Is this place itself insane or the people living in it. Gotham, like any city, aspires to be good through its heroes, but it always crashes because of the people inside it. What makes the city? That's what I love and wish future films can tackle. The theme of sanity.

 

[Vile]

So, if Levitt is not playing Alberto Falcone, then who?

Maybe, Thomas Elliot. I also wouldn't be surprised if they decide to go with a younger Hugo Strange(hey, it's been done with Lex Luthor), so that could be it, also. Or, I daresay, The Joker in a small part.

Firefly.

Mark my words, friend.

 

[Brother Jack]

I don't get too caught up about what is and what is not canon. Dark Knight Returns isn't technically canon, but it influenced the mythos forever. Likewise the Burton and Nolan films aren't comics-canon, but they too have influenced the character, his world, and how they're presented. All of these reflect off of each other whether they exist in an on-going serial, a one-off elseworld tale, or a feature film. And all of them, the good ones anyway, are valid. There really isn't much that cannot be changed about the character from one incarnation to the next, less than some would think.

 

[Mr. Earle]

You're trying to relate ancient world history to a fictional superhero in a fictional world?

No, i'm responding to your arguement that whoever uses fear is not sane. You should make better arguements.

I dont know where your selective reading comprehension is pulling that from, I said he isn't mentally stable, and not exactly "sane", that doesn't mean hes bat-**** crazy and belongs next to the Joker.

You flat out said he isnt sane. How did i misinterpret that?

Right.

He doesnt. Do i have to post comics pages? Just read Batman: Death and the Maidens that deals with Bruce dealing with his parents. There is no guilt there. He doesnt feel guilty for their deaths, he just wants them to be proud of him.

Seems like you like you to believe your Batman is one way, and I believe he is another.

No, its not like that. Batman is a dynamic character that keeps changing over the years according to the tastes and trends of each era. He was funny in the 50ies, grimdark insane in the 90ies, pretty balanced now under Morrison, and so on. The point is that he is not a mentally unstable person if you exclude his history in the worst decade in comics: The 90ies.

You seem to think that your opinion is canon, just because you prefer certain comics to others you think you have a better understanding of where Batman comes from psychologically.

No, i dont. I have read comics and use them in my arguements to back them. If you have a different opinion, then please use sources yourself to back up what you re saying. Otherwise you re just pulling stuff out of your ass.

Believe it or not I have read a few you condescending troll.

1) You dont know what a troll is.
2)

We re just talking. Relax.

Morrison is fixing the "crap" of the 90's?

He is fixing the crap characterization of the character, where writers were pushing him further and further to insanity because "bat-dick is cool and edgy and hardcore. You should read his comics while listening to Evanescence and cutting yourself". His Batman of Zur En Arrh is a mockery of that characterization. Batman doenst need to become a psychopath to be cool.

Have you read any comics from the 90's? Some of Batmans greatest stories were from that "crap" period as you so brilliantly put it.

I dont deny that, i'm just saying that besides some good stories, most of the 90ies were spent in pushing the character further into a dark corner full of grimdark.

Its fine if you believe youre right, but dont try to pass your opinion off as fact or canon. You think Batmans sane, I think hes unstable but not insane. Theyre both opinions, and depending on which comics you read, one opinion might be more true than the other.

Wow, someone doesnt like to discuss. Hey, if you think that anyone who opposes you is a condescending troll, then perhaps you shouldnt discuss with people.

 

[Mr. Earle]

A child witnesses his parents murder.... he's going to be traumatized for life and he's going to carry that with him forever. Bruce obviously does- its been the main thing that's dictated his decisions for the rest of his life.

I meant that trauma obviously affects people but it doesnt have the same effect on all of us. The Killing Joke deals with this issue. Whereas the Joker snapped after all the bad things that happened to him, Gordon stood strong and kept his sanity and decency. So yeah Batman doesnt have to become a nutcase just because of what he saw. Writers in the olden days wrote him as a serious detective with nothing to suggest that he's nuts. In the 90ies they wrote him nuts, and now they re taking it all back.

I guess it all comes down to which era of Batman we're talking about, but i think that in most of his history he was fine.

What makes you think Morrison's Batgod is a self parody? It was an easy way of legitimizing a powerless man on a team of superpowered people: making him smarter than everyone else

What you say is true, but at the same time Morrison was poking fun at the Batgod. For example there is a scene where he sneaks in the Watchtower and brags about his new gadget that allowed him to cover his heartbeat so that Superman wouldnt hear him. He also uses "tt" and "hh" which are arrogant and condescending sounds that he makes whenever he's bragging.

There is quite a big group of people and comics critics that believe that Morrison was using his JLA Batman to send a message about the bat-dick.

Also, Morrison himself said that his Arkham Asylum was made as a stark opposite to Miller's TDKR. Whereas the latter was mostly realistic, gritty and political issues, AA was more like a dream, dealing with issues of the mind and written more like a European comic book. Its not relevant, i'm just telling you this to show you that Morrison often likes to go against the flow and make comments through his metatext.

1. Most of them have superpowers

Yeah but the villains they fight are equally powerful. Numerous Teen Titans have died along the years, but only one Robin.

2. Bringing a teenager into a fight where they could lose there lives is a poor decision anyway whether you be superman or batman. So maybe they're all crazy.

Its a superhero world. Its the same as... i dunno, having a kid wizard (Potter) fighting the ultimate villain when all his teachers are standing by in their ignorance.

You have to accept that for the sake of the story you cant label half the population of the world as crazy. Its a different world full of aliens, monsters, gods, amazon clay women, and god knows what else, that operates under different rules.

I swear Nolan has had a profound effect on how people perceive comic book characters. They re comics, relax, grab a snack, and enjoy Batman and Robin kicking gods in the face.