BvS The Batsuit Thread - - - - - - - Part 30

[roach]

I've always preferred that batman function as a lone vigilante. I'm not claiming that take is any more valid than the "bat-family," but it is what I prefer, especially for movies. I could imagine him preparing for his eventual death (not his retirement; I like a bat that fights until he dies), but that would come much later and this person wouldn't be his permanent shadow. There's just something striking about a lone crime-fighter, a man that thinks he's more like a force of nature, rather than a mere mortal, and seeks help only when needed.

Of course, I'm open to seeing other characters, but prefer they appear in a more auxiliary fashion.

The problem with Batman's sidekicks is they don't really fit his mode of operation. Batman sets himself up as this scary, ethereal, primal, creature of the night....Freddy Kreugar to criminals...
The minute you put him with a teen in a bright costume or Nightwing or Batgirl...it reduces his scariness.
Think about every scary movie monster and then put a kid in bright colors next to them.

 

[KillerWolf]

This is yet another good point.

 

[TheFlamingCoco]

The problem with Batman's sidekicks is they don't really fit his mode of operation. Batman sets himself up as this scary, ethereal, primal, creature of the night....Freddy Kreugar to criminals...
The minute you put him with a teen in a bright costume or Nightwing or Batgirl...it reduces his scariness.
Think about every scary movie monster and then put a kid in bright colors next to them.

It's funny, but I view Batman's use of sidekicks as representative of his demeanor. I think the Bat Family brings about a warmness to him, though I like Batman to be solo for the most part.

 

[roach]

If I was doing it...I would create this legend that Robin is the ghost of a boy murdered on the streets of Gotham and he's the harbinger of the Batman...think the cat boy from the Ring series. I guarantee no one would have trouble putting that in a movie

 

[MrsKent26]

I think there are some things in comics that arise not out of proper alignment with pre-established character traits and arcs, but out of the necessity to bring forward something new to sell to justifiably fickle consumers. That's not to say these things have no merit, but they don't generally work as well in movie form as the more central parts of a mythos (IMO).

 

[Mr.?]

I see. Appreciate the info.

And yeah, I am not fond of that.

It sounds bad out of context but I've read vol. 1 of the New 52 Batgirl and it's pretty interesting. She doubts herself after being paralyzed and is afraid it will happen again to her. A big portion of the book is about her overcoming her fear of failure.

 

[KillerWolf]

It sounds bad out of context but I've read vol. 1 of the New 52 Batgirl and it's pretty interesting. She doubts herself after being paralyzed and is afraid it will happen again to her. A big portion of the book is about her overcoming her fear of failure.

Okay, I can see how this might give birth to some interesting or at least engaging stories.

@roach
I really like that idea about Robin being a ghost of killed boy.

 

[Mr.?]

It's funny, but I view Batman's use of sidekicks as representative of his demeanor. I think the Bat Family brings about a warmness to him, though I like Batman to be solo for the most part.

That is why I love the idea of bringing in the Bat Family, to see a different side of Batman. I like the dark brooding Batman as much as the next guy but why not go down a new route? Seeing Batman as a father figure to all these untapped characters would be awesome.

If they bring in Robin I really hope they use Damian.

 

[Mrs. Wayne]

Ugh Roach's idea is really making me ache for a psycho-horror Batman flick. I doubt they'd want to go that route though.

 

[antoineflemming]

The problem with Batman's sidekicks is they don't really fit his mode of operation. Batman sets himself up as this scary, ethereal, primal, creature of the night....Freddy Kreugar to criminals...
The minute you put him with a teen in a bright costume or Nightwing or Batgirl...it reduces his scariness.
Think about every scary movie monster and then put a kid in bright colors next to them.

"They don't really fit his mode of operation", except that they have, for 75 years.

Mr.?, I certainly don't want Damian. I'd have Nightwing, Batgirl, Tim Drake, and Batwing II (again, only because he's black and adds something different to the group). If that's too much, I'd scrap Tim Drake (and that would avoid having a colorful Robin outfit onscreen that doesnt fit with the aesthetic of the darker costumes of Batman and the other Bat family members).

 

[godisawesome]

I like the idea of the Batfamily being at least partially an admittance that as awesome as Batman is, as skilled as he is, as resourceful and powerful as he can be....Gotham is still just too damn torn apart for him to be able to effectively contain it on a consistent basis.

He can tackle the big fish and mass murdering lunatics, and fight the crime wave with Gordon and the MCU, but he can't commit the time and resources to cleaning up the East End and keeping the city safe, so he allows Catwoman to prowl free in exchange for her taking down more dangerous criminals. He can send powerful capos and successful thugs fleeing the city, but they'll just start preying on the neighboring Blüdhaven and recoup to come back to Gotham, so he's grateful that Nightwing is brining the pain too them there. He can halt Ra's Al Ghul's plans again and again, but the only way he can keep track of both the League of Assassins and Leviathan or the Order of St. Dumas when they're all actively plotting the city's destruction is with agents like Azrael, Black Bat, or Oracle and the Birds of Prey. And if Joker breaks out at the same time as Two-Face, or Clayface, or Riddler, or anyone of a half dozen other foes, he needs support in the field from Robin.

And if he falls, he needs someone to shore up the cities defenses until he recovers.

Mind you, this means you have to make every single villain actually worthy of the term super-villain; Two-Face can't be just an interchangeable mobster who robs banks, Penguin can't just be a Gun runner, Croc can't be a simple wrestler, Bane can't be a one note strongman, and even the regular mafia members got to be tough SOBs, like the Roman.

And having an expanded cast does so much for building the real Bruce Wayne's character: if he has sons or pupils to take care of alongside Alfred to snark to, we can see more of his dark and rare displays of humor, or see how he repairs his spirit after a defeat, or worries about people when he knows in his mind that they can defend themselves.

The Batfamily, when written well, will always bring more to the table than Batman by himself. It's the "written well" part that's a pain in the butt.

 

[roach]

"They don't really fit his mode of operation", except that they have, for 75 years.

Not really...they are there but they don't really fit.
Batman tries to convince criminals he's a bat human nightmarish creature...the minute he teams up with his kids he's no long that...he's a guy in a costume. It's one of the reasons why people feel he works best alone.

 

[KillerWolf]

Ugh Roach's idea is really making me ache for a psycho-horror Batman flick. I doubt they'd want to go that route though.

I don't see it happening and it's a real shame they'll never verge into horror films with Batman, as the character is perfect for that. It's different with comic books, they have managed to pull more horroresque stories in comics, but there is an inherent problem when you're making a CBM for wider audience - there are things you just can't do.
They could, if they would approach it as a more of a limited budget film of specific genre, but Batman, being a popular character that he is, will never be approached that way, when he can easily make a lot of money to the studio if they make the film more family friendly.

 

[roach]

Ugh Roach's idea is really making me ache for a psycho-horror Batman flick. I doubt they'd want to go that route though.

The idea popped into my head and I may develop it more...maybe use it to pitch the comics...revamp Robin the way Brubaker revamped Bucky

 

[antoineflemming]

Not really...they are there but they don't really fit.
Batman tries to convince criminals he's a bat human nightmarish creature...the minute he teams up with his kids he's no long that...he's a guy in a costume. It's one of the reasons why people feel he works best alone.

Well maybe they shouldn't be kids.

 

[Mr.?]

Another thing is, I don't see why introducing the Bat Family automatically means no more solo Batman movies. You could do movies where he is teaming up with Nightwing/Batgirl/Robin then if you want a solo movie just have Batman say "Im doing this alone" and just focus on him for a movie.

I think a good idea would be too have a trilogy that shows Dick go from a boy to Nightwing.

First movie would be Bruce adopting him and training him, second could have Dick be established as Robin as well as Barbara becoming Batgirl at the end, Third movie could be a romance between Dick and Barbara, Batman and Robin butting heads throughout it, Barbara getting paralyzed by the Joker which would lead to Dick throwing away his Robin costume at the end to become his own man.

 

[Gamma Goliath]

The idea popped into my head and I may develop it more...maybe use it to pitch the comics...revamp Robin the way Brubaker revamped Bucky

It'd make a very interesting dynamic if batman from the earth one began to adopt that type of presence, and then your robin idea would be great there.

 

[PerryYellow]

Another reason I want a Court of Owls movie. They could work that into an adaptation of that story, especially since the story kinda focuses on those two.

You mean the movie, not the comic book. And there's much, much, much better stories about that.

Screw CoO, screw Bruce killing innocent animals, screw Bruce running around like a detective when he's 10 to prove some conspiracy theory. Give me a call when Scott Snyder doesnt need to retcon something in the past to hook his stories about the present and make them cool. He always has to do that because if he doesnt hook them to the past, he feels like he doesnt count.

Yeah, I see that some folks want bat-family, but I don't care much for it, to be honest. Still, if included, I'd draw a line with Nightwing and Oracle (who never was Batgirl). Oh, and dead Jason Todd.

You dont need an extended family. You can only have Dick as Robin and then replace him with Jason or Tim or Damian while Dick graduates/leaves to become Nightwing. Perhaps in his own standalone movies, or just putting him aside to pop up once in a while like how War Machine does in the Marvel Movieverse.

The Robins are a HUGE part of the Batman mythos and play a big role in his progression as a character. At the end of the day we've seen countless stories about him going it alone, i wouldnt mind him having a sidekick. And i would certainly love to see a future Batman series, perhaps running alongside the main batman movies. Dick and Damian, or Damian Batman, or Beyond.

 

[PerryYellow]

Yeah. I want Bat Family. Nightwing, Batgirl, and Batwing. Dead Jason Todd. Batman isn't a loner. Enough movies have come out where he's been a loner. It's about time we get a proper story with Batman and his allies. And I want Court of Owls not only because of it's story but because it features the Bat Family in action. Nightwing is a given. I want Batgirl because I don't want someone stuck behind a computer, not participating in the action. I want all hands on deck. I want Batwing (Luke Fox), and not Tim Drake or Damian, because 1) since he flies, that provides some different visuals than having three people in addition to Batman who are on the ground doing similar things, 2) he's black, and diversifies the cast (as does Batgirl in the field), and 3) he's an MMA fighter, so his fighting could be done differently than Batman (I really don't expect Batman to fight like an MMA fighter). Batgirl and Nightwing could also fight in different ways. So that's why I want the Bat Family. Because it's long overdue. Again, Batman isn't a loner. He's had allies in the comics, and within this shared universe, it'd be good to get that on screen, and to have it done right on screen.

Let's be real here. The Batfamily didnt do anything during the CoO story. They just had a special issue about it where each of them fought an Owl to boost their sales. Whoop dee freaking do. That's not them participating in the story in any meaningful way. And you dont need this particular story to use the batfamily. You can do it with every goddamn villain.

Sorry for the rant, but i really, really hate this story. How full of holes its plot is, and how empty of meaning and full of cliches it is and yet it's so beloved.

Yeah, Nightwing as ex-colleague and someone who knows Bruce better than anyone (aside from Alfred) adds not just an interesting father-son dynamic, but also a more human side and same goes with Oracle, which I find is pretty much needed addition for Batman in 21st century, when you think about it. Though I'd never make Batman in constant contact with her and generally as tech-reliant as he is in Arkham games.

But I also won't miss the two if they don't appear in this universe. Given that Batman already works in team in Justice League, I feel that in his solo films he should be, well, solo. t:



That's a lot of characters to handle. By the way I thought David Zavimbe is Batwing...?

Anyway, I pretty much entirely disagree.

Well, I agree that Batman is not a loner in literal sense of the word, but I really have no interest in seeing every single crime fighter in costume, and I feel that it kind of takes away from what makes character of Batman extraordinary and his crusade against crime so commendable.
And I especially don't want those that are bat-themed such are Batgirl and Batwing, as it takes away from Batman in whole another sense.

To me it would be perfect to have Nigthwing, as experienced and younger fellow crime fighter that used to work with Batman, Oracle, since someone with such high computer skills befits Batman perfectly, especially a modern world version of the character and Jason Todd, a second colleague of his that fell victim of his crusade, making him more rough and hardened, as result. And it also shows the audience how tough and dangerous Gotham City and life as a crime fighter are, and what happens when non-superpowered human being takes on him/herself to fight crime on their own. Again, it makes Batman (and Nightwing) more extraordinary by comparison.

If anything, i'd say it's Oracle that takes away from him the most, since she usually does all the hacking, computer work, research, etc. Every other character is just Batman lite, but they can never replace him or steal his thunder.

Oracle takes over the detective part quite a bit and it's something we've barely seen him do in the movies. Let him work some cases for once. Oracle can support Nightwing or whatever.

 

[PerryYellow]

I can understand and get on board with the idea of Batman inspiring others to do the same he does, though if we're to talk about what is believable, half of them, if not more, should be dead already. It should be established that not everyone can do something like this, again, Batman is an extraordinary human being.

And while you make a fine point with it going along with Batman's tendency to have contingency plan, in case he dies, there is a problem of Batman usually being depicted as rather territorial, even in arcs where there's ton of other crime fighters such is "War Games" and writers often go against themselves with that - if he is so territorial why the hell did he let so many other costumed crime fighters run rampage through the Gotham?
Also, him not planning for someone to take his mantle might be explained with two good reasons:

1. He wouldn't want for anyone to have a life such as his, knowing at first hand how hard and dark such a life is.

2. He might feel arrogantly self-confident enough to never consider being defeated while Gotham still needs him, hence needing someone to continue his fight. It's in character of him to be stubborn like this. This is a man that refuses to see that he is fighting against the windmills and how pointless his ongoing crusade actually is in a long-term, after all.

As for other bat-like characters, it is a matter of aesthetic connection, a symbolism if you will - when you see a bat-like bipedal creature in the night in Gotham, that is Batman. Making it, perhaps it's Batman, perhaps some of the many kids he inspired to dress in a similar manner waters it down to me.

And Catwoman serves quite a different purpose than Batman's direct allies. She is a standalone character. She doesn't have a direct connection with him such aforementioned allies do, she is almost always depicted as morally grey with her own agenda and while she might help him out occasionally, she would never take orders from Batman. She is a character in the same vein as any from Batman's rogue gallery, it's just that she falls in the middle of the spectrum and from time to time allies herself with him.

Also, I don't see why would it be pointless having Barbara Gordon that is an ally to Batman and uses her computer knowledge to help him, if she was never Batgirl. Her previously being Batgirl adds nothing in that regard, especially since she was shot by Joker because she was Gordon's daughter and not because she was fighting alongside Batman in a costume - Joker didn't know that it was her when he shot her.

1. I'm sure they can find a way to justify it. If Nolan can make you believe that it makes sense to dress up like a bat and fight crime with your fists, why not this? In Batman Forever Robin's arc was handled very well i might say. Batman couldnt stop him from joining so he had to accept him and rather than watch him die, train him to avoid it.

2. Batman has often said that he expects to die sooner or later. Maybe some punk will get lucky, maybe the Joker will finaly do it, etc. He's arrogant, but he's not that moronically arrogant. The easiest example i could find (i cant go through my comics collection searching for one quote as you can imagine) is this:

[YT]watch?v=PETk8eBbfN0[/YT]

Also, you guys need to stop reading Snyder's overdramatic soap bat-operas and read some goddamn Morrison.

The first truth of Batman...
It had to be one I don't like to admit.
The gunshots left me alone.
For years I was alone in the echoing dark of that well.
But something else defined the exact moment Batman was born.
The first truth of Batman...
The saving grace.
I was never alone.
I had help.

- The Return of Bruce Wayne #6

 

[RadioSha]

I hope tomorrow (or today's morning) doesn't suck.

 

[PerryYellow]

I think there are some things in comics that arise not out of proper alignment with pre-established character traits and arcs, but out of the necessity to bring forward something new to sell to justifiably fickle consumers. That's not to say these things have no merit, but they don't generally work as well in movie form as the more central parts of a mythos (IMO).

If i am not mistaken, Robin was introduced a lot earlier than Gordon or the Joker. In any case, it was certainly during Batman's second year in print.

I realise it's silly having a kid fight crime, but so is dressing up as a bat, or expecting batman to compete in the JL where the Flash can go back in time and beat Darkseid when he was a kid. Or rid the world of crime in seconds.

It's funny, but I view Batman's use of sidekicks as representative of his demeanor. I think the Bat Family brings about a warmness to him, though I like Batman to be solo for the most part.

Not necessarily. It sometimes accentuates and underlines his extreme personality when you put him next to more "normal" people. For example juxtaposing him with happy-go-lucky Dick.

In a similar fashion, Wilson and Cuddy's normality didnt make House any less obsessive, psychotic or brilliant. It underlined it.

Another thing is, I don't see why introducing the Bat Family automatically means no more solo Batman movies. You could do movies where he is teaming up with Nightwing/Batgirl/Robin then if you want a solo movie just have Batman say "Im doing this alone" and just focus on him for a movie.

Hear hear!

The problem with Batman's sidekicks is they don't really fit his mode of operation. Batman sets himself up as this scary, ethereal, primal, creature of the night....Freddy Kreugar to criminals...
The minute you put him with a teen in a bright costume or Nightwing or Batgirl...it reduces his scariness.
Think about every scary movie monster and then put a kid in bright colors next to them.

I concede that point. But perhaps you can change Robin's suit and make it scary. I know i'd be scared of Batman's devil child. In any case, this is a comic book universe. People could think Batman is a mutant, or alien, or Manbat's brother. So his kid could very well be the spawn of the devil.

 

[lujho]

Gordon was there from day one (Detective #27).

 

[regwec]

If I was doing it...I would create this legend that Robin is the ghost of a boy murdered on the streets of Gotham and he's the harbinger of the Batman...think the cat boy from the Ring series. I guarantee no one would have trouble putting that in a movie

That's a really interesting idea, Roach. Having Robin perceived as something vaguely daemonic by the criminal underworld would make a virtue of his bright, grinning appearance. He could be the "face" of Batman, who is intended to be visible. Informants and cops on the beat would converse with him warily, scanning the shadows, knowing that The Batman was somewhere just out of view...

 

[Astro13Zombie]

When is the DC/BvS panel?
What time?