The Dark Knight Rises The TDKR General Discussion Thread - - - - - - - - - - - Part 143

[BatLobster]

Exactly, not many, but some do. It's not a case of the two being the only ones in GOtham to go through that.

Wasn't Gotham sort of a police state within the eight year gap? The civil rights of Harvey Dent's captured middle men were almost next to nothing. Being a cop would seem to be a a shining career prospect. Especially to those kids who grew up in a pre Batman GOtham, later inspired by the man himself to do good.

But the the movie depicted the orphans as lost and with nowhere to go once they aged out. The whole point of dealing with orphans in TDKR is a way of showing the lowest part of society's totem pole with the least hope.

Again, Blake is exceptional. Even if you want to say other orphans have experienced the same exact trauma, have seen Bruce Wayne in person...there's just no reason to assume they're all as insightful as him and also went on to become police officers with the ability to barge into Wayne Manor and threaten an arrest warrant.

If Blake wasn't exceptional, he'd have no business being one of the main players in a Batman movie. Every single one of the main characters represents some type of archetype. I honestly think people just would have rather that he figured it out purely with detective work because it's less touchy feely and more Batman-like. Intuition is a bit more feminine. Doesn't make it bad writing though IMO. It was a nice monologue, a great performance. Overall an emotional beat in the film that simply worked, at least for me.

And for as many people who found the Robin namedrop to be tacky, I'm so glad they did it, because that alone solidified my impression of the first Blake/Bruce scene for me.

 

[Anno_Domini]

Blake also said, "Not many people know what it feels like...". Based on that line, whether one agrees with this depiction of Gotham or not, I think it can be inferred that a situation like Blake and Bruce's is a more rare thing. There are just so many other more likely causes of death than gun violence, even in a city like Gotham. It's arguable whether Blake witnessed his father's murder or not, but I always interpreted his line that way.

And again, how many orphans become cops? Blake is a rather exceptional case.

Agree!

Seeing firsthand that their loved ones are being gunned down was very different form regular murders. Not to say zero of the orphans lost their parent(s) to gun violence, but to see it firsthand...highly doubt that anyone else went through that during the period of when seeing Bruce Wayne at that period of time(during BB and TDK presumably).

It kills me how much I hate the way Blake discovers Bruce's secret, because that scene is some of the finest acting JGL's ever done on screen.

What also kills me is that fine acting from JGL didn't get as much acknowledgment as it should have. Watching the Oscars pre-show just makes me call out a foul of how TDKR got snubbed with so many categories; it's bogus, imo.

 

[Tacit Ronin]

But the the movie depicted the orphans as lost and with nowhere to go once they aged out. The whole point of dealing with orphans in TDKR is a way of showing the lowest part of society's totem pole with the least hope.

This again? I am naturally talking about orphans of Blake's time. Naturally sub-16 year old orphans cannot be police officers.

Again, Blake is exceptional.

Yes. None are as exceptional as him for no other discerning reason other than the fact that he is a main character. This is the root of the contrivance of that scene.

I honestly think people just would have rather that he figured it out purely with detective work because it's less touchy feely and more Batman-like.

Yes. I rather would've seen some detective work to find out Bruce's identity rather than Alfred being a chicken under questioning. Gordon was smarter and refused to answer Blake's accusations.

Intuition is a bit more feminine. Doesn't make it bad writing though IMO. It was a nice monologue, a great performance. Overall an emotional beat in the film that simply worked, at least for me.

It didn't work for me (and many others). I guess there is nothing else left to be said.

And for as many people who found the Robin namedrop to be tacky, I'm so glad they did it, because that alone solidified my impression of the first Blake/Bruce scene for me.

I had no problem with them namedropping "Robin" because I don't see him becoming Robin. Maybe Nightwing or Batman 2.0 or something.

 

[the last son]

It's tough for me not to tear up a little during the first bane fight

 

[Brain Damage]

Agree!
What also kills me is that fine acting from JGL didn't get as much acknowledgment as it should have. Watching the Oscars pre-show just makes me call out a foul of how TDKR got snubbed with so many categories; it's bogus, imo.

Yeah, plot and editing problems aside, almost everything else about TDKR was top-notch.

Though this year had some amazing performances in supporting acting, Tom Hardy gave a mesmerizing performances that should have been acknowledged.

 

[the last son]

The more I watch the more I dislike Hardy performance for some reason. I don't know maybe it was just the way Bane was written.

 

[JackWhite]

The more I watch the more I dislike Hardy performance for some reason. I don't know maybe it was just the way Bane was written.

Really? I mean, everything up until he gets blown away by Catwoman was top notch acting from Hardy.

By the way, how was the TDKR mentioned during the Oscars opening?

 

[Anno_Domini]

Yah, I loved Hardy's portrayal as much as the way Bane was even written in TDKR. A member of this new League of Shadows that were a more suicidal bunch than Ra's' version who was sent out to break Batman but in the end had real hatred over this figure so it made the final battle much more personal to me than even the first fight.

And if I remember, I think there was a Google spot that featured a lot of films of 2012 and they showed two moments in TDKR of Blake in the bridge watching The Bat being destroyed and then Catwoman getting in The Bat with Batman's "This isn't a car." line, lol.

 

[JackWhite]

Haha, fine selections for that Google spot.

 

[The Guard]

And I'll say it before, I'll say it again- there's no reason to believe Blake didn't apply any reasoning skills (more like common sense- Batman would have to be wealthy, etc.) once he had his initial hunch.

You’re right. No reason to believe it other than the complete lack of reasoning skills found in the method he used to discover Bruce was Batman. Apparently hiding your pain makes you Batman. Who knew?

The scene just focuses on the emotional aspect of it, because the most important information to get from the scene is the fact that they share the same impulses when it comes to injustice.

And that’s why it falls flat. Because that’s all the scene focuses on. It’s a sledgehammer moment with no subtlety to it whatsoever.

Being a good detective has as much to do with having good instincts as it does pure logical reasoning. Those hunches are what separate a good detective from a great detective.

Yeah...no. Speaking as a special investigator myself, being a good detective has much, much more to do with being able to reason and apply logic than just having “hunches”.

“Hunches” and “instinct” are not just things that happen. They are generally born out of one’s ability to reason and apply logic in the first place. Not some magical force that allows you to be a good detective.

That's one way to do it. But for the Nolan's it was about his intuition, and that deeper bond that connected their souls and quests for justice in a way that might be shackled by the law. Rather than simply their abilities as detectives.

That’s all well and good. It could have been both. And if he gave a damn about the source material he was “homaging”, it would have been.

If you'll remember, one of the series' primary themes is "the training is nothing, the will is everything." Having Bruce consider Blake a worthy successor because he showed great skill would fly in the face of that very important idea.

“The training is nothing, the will is everything” was not meant to refer to every skill.

Ra’s was specifically talking about having the motivation and will to act to stop criminals, period. And he was being a bit illogical in order to manipulate Bruce emotionally.

As for Blake questioning Gordon about Batman, that's not showing detective skills. It just means he has doubts about Batman's guilt. What detective skills did he show by simply repeating the events of the night Dent died and then asking Gordon does he want to know who Batman is?

This.

I almost laughed my ass off when Blake was promoted to Detective in the movie. I’m just like “Seriously? Why? Because he stumbles across stuff happening?”

 

[Victarion]

Gordon needed someone on the case that he could trust; someone who'd take it seriously and hadn't gotten lazy due to the Dent Act. Enter John Blake. Also, who is to say Blake didn't look into the rumors about the Batman in between TDK and TDKR?

 

[BatLobster]

Yeah, pretty sick of arguing the Blake thing so probably time to move on. There's nothing left to say, I think both sides have made their positions clear. It was the simplicity of it that made it work for me. I feel a convoluted explanation would have detracted from the emotional core of the scene and added unnecessary exposition into the film. I also don't get how it would be somehow more subtle if Blake presented Bruce with some damning piece of evidence. That is all.

And Guard, I should have been clear. I meant that those "special" hunches seem to be a trope when we're dealing in the world of fictional detectives. I'm not claiming to know about the realities of being a detective. But good instincts never hurt anyone when it came to any job, and I would think would help in certain instances where the facts alone aren't telling the whole story. Again though, not trying to speak out of turn about your profession, and am basing my rationale on movie detectives.

 

[georgec]

It's pretty obvious to me that once Blake had his hunch, he looked deeper into Bruce/Batman. When he became a cop he then had access to certain files and records. He talked to people, asked questions about their experiences with Batman. This is encapsulated in his rooftop scene with Gordon, where Blake is sure but is feeling Gordon out.

We didn't need Blake to explain every single thing he did to confirm Bruce was Batman. It's implied. Robin focuses on the emotional aspect when talking to Bruce because that is going to have a greater affect on convincing Bruce that Gordon and the city needs Batman. If Blake had focused merely on the nuts and bolts proof of how Bruce was Batman, Bruce wouldn't have been as emotionally affected.

 

[BatLobster]

^ Yeah, I highly doubt he'd be broaching the subject with the Police Commissioner (or Bruce for that matter) if he hadn't done some further investigation on his own to back up his belief.

Alright I said I was gonna stop talking about it so I'll leave it at that, haha.

 

[shauner111]

People are just missing the point with Blake, most of the time. You're failing to look past the surface of his monologue. Actually a lot of u guys aren't even listening to his words. Not only did he have close to 10 years or more to sit on his hunch and investigate, but when he says "right there i knew who you really were"..he's not saying RIGHT THEN IN THAT ORPHANAGE JUST BY THAT LOOK, I KNEW U WERE BATMAN. He's saying "i knew it was all a lie, the smile was fake, this was all a ruse". His "Bruce Wayne is Batman" hunch is something years in the making, and the more time he has with Gordon or whatever...it just tells him "Yep my hunch has to be spot on..this is the time to confront Wayne about it, he's right in front of me".

I truly feel sorry for people who couldn't look past the comics in that instant or couldn't enjoy such an emotional scene between two characters because all they heard was "I felt it in my bones....WHAAAT!? just like that he knows he;s Batman!? how stupid".

 

[georgec]

^ Exactly, shauner. The initial hunch was that Bruce wasn't the airhead rich guy he presented to people. It was that Bruce was a deeper, more conflicted and troubled personality.

Much of the film's nitpicks can be attributed to people going in with very strict, comic-derived expectations. When things didn't turn out the way they expected, they sought ways to rationalize how much they didn't like the film. Hence, they seek every possible reason to complain, when most of these ridiculous conversations have very direct, logical, obvious answers.

 

[BatLobster]

Wow, in all my exhaustive posts on this issue I failed to point out what you just did shauner, which is probably the best point I've seen yet. That's spot on.

 

[The Guard]

It's pretty obvious to me that once Blake had his hunch, he looked deeper into Bruce/Batman.

Based on what?

When he became a cop he then had access to certain files and records. He talked to people, asked questions about their experiences with Batman. This is encapsulated in his rooftop scene with Gordon, where Blake is sure but is feeling Gordon out.

Not really. What’s enscapulated in that scene with Gordon is that he knows what supposedly happened, as does most of the city, apparently. That doesn’t remotely even hint at any investigation into who Bruce and Batman are.

We didn't need Blake to explain every single thing he did to confirm Bruce was Batman. It's implied.

No it’s not.

People are just missing the point with Blake, most of the time. You're failing to look past the surface of his monologue. Actually a lot of u guys aren't even listening to his words. Not only did he have close to 10 years or more to sit on his hunch and investigate, but when he says "right there i knew who you really were"..he's not saying RIGHT THEN IN THAT ORPHANAGE JUST BY THAT LOOK, I KNEW U WERE BATMAN. He's saying "i knew it was all a lie, the smile was fake, this was all a ruse".

It actually means both. Given the context of the scene, he likely means both “I knew you were someone like me, who hid their true self" and “I knew you were Batman”.

That’s how the film presents it. That’s probably why people don’t look past the “surface” of his monologue. Because that’s all there was. Surface. Exposition. We are directly TOLD what happened and how he figured it out.

His "Bruce Wayne is Batman" hunch is something years in the making, and the more time he has with Gordon or whatever...it just tells him "Yep my hunch has to be spot on..this is the time to confront Wayne about it, he's right in front of me".

"The more time he has with Gordon or whatever"? That's not very convincing.

Nevermind that none of the stuff you just talked about has any more depth to it than "I have a hunch that Bruce Wayne is Batman".

I truly feel sorry for people who couldn't look past the comics in that instant or couldn't enjoy such an emotional scene between two characters because all they heard was "I felt it in my bones....WHAAAT!? just like that he knows he;s Batman!? how stupid".

It’s got nothing to do with the comics, other than the comics are a place where this concept has been done much better and more interestingly. But if the characters of Jason Todd and Tim Drake had never existed, it would still be an awkwardly written, incomplete and hard to swallow scene.

Maybe some people don’t enjoy awkwardly introduced, contrived emotion, but prefer genuine development of emotional elements instead of just being told how people feel and how they're similar, instead of shown these things in a more organic way. Just a thought.

 

[The Joker]

People are just missing the point with Blake, most of the time. You're failing to look past the surface of his monologue. Actually a lot of u guys aren't even listening to his words. Not only did he have close to 10 years or more to sit on his hunch and investigate, but when he says "right there i knew who you really were"..he's not saying RIGHT THEN IN THAT ORPHANAGE JUST BY THAT LOOK, I KNEW U WERE BATMAN. He's saying "i knew it was all a lie, the smile was fake, this was all a ruse".

That's your interpretation and I don't buy that for a minute. The whole monologue was constructed around Blake saying he knew Bruce was Batman and his explanation of the orphanage scene seemed rather obvious that he was he was telling Bruce how he found out; by recognizing a look on his face. Saying "I knew who you were" doesn't imply to me that he knew the smile was fake. It explicitly implies he was saying I knew you were Batman.

Otherwise what other evidence, apart from a phony smile from a man who is publicly known to have lost his parents when he was a child, did Blake get to know beyond a shadow of a doubt that Bruce Wayne is Batman? He doesn't offer any other than the orphanage scene. The whole basis of his knowing Bruce is Batman is on that look he recognized. Hiding pain = being Batman apparently to Blake.

I'm sorry but I don't think anyone is missing any point because your interpretation of the monologue is something I have never seen put forth by anyone when describing that scene because it just does not come across that way.

 

[Polaris23]

Blake just sucks. Let's move on.

 

[georgec]

You guys are right. I hate Blake and I hate this movie now, too!

 

[Tequilla]

Blake just sucks. Let's move on.

He is actually a fantastic character.

 

[Victarion]

Blake got the suspicion in the orphanage and followed up on it after he joined the Gotham Police.

 

[Kane52630]

Blake got the suspicion in the orphanage and followed up on it after he joined the Gotham Police.

That's what I got out of it.

 

[TheBat812]

That's your interpretation and I don't buy that for a minute. The whole monologue was constructed around Blake saying he knew Bruce was Batman and his explanation of the orphanage scene seemed rather obvious that he was he was telling Bruce how he found out; by recognizing a look on his face. Saying "I knew who you were" doesn't imply to me that he knew the smile was fake. It explicitly implies he was saying I knew you were Batman.

Otherwise what other evidence, apart from a phony smile from a man who is publicly known to have lost his parents when he was a child, did Blake get to know beyond a shadow of a doubt that Bruce Wayne is Batman? He doesn't offer any other than the orphanage scene. The whole basis of his knowing Bruce is Batman is on that look he recognized. Hiding pain = being Batman apparently to Blake.

I'm sorry but I don't think anyone is missing any point because your interpretation of the monologue is something I have never seen put forth by anyone when describing that scene because it just does not come across that way.

If you honestly deny that what shauner said is at the very least a possibility (and in my mind, he's nailed what the core of the scene is about, given that Nolan has established that being Batman is a reaction to personal trauma, not just some silly identity), than not much to talk about here. What you always do in your analyses is take what they're saying at straight up face value with very little understanding of subtext and intention. As shauner pointed out, what Blake "knew" was that they shared the same deep pain that few others know. This is what connects them. That figurative mask they show the world. The leap to him being Batman is a logical one once, as shauner explained, that connection was made.


Here's the full quote for good measure:

We’ve met before. It was a long time ago, I was a kid, Saint Swithin's used to be funded by the Wayne foundation; it was an orphanage. My mom died when I was small; it was a car accident, I don’t really remember it. But, uh, my dad got shot a couple years later over a gambling debt. And I remember that one just fine. Not a lot people know what if feels like to, uh, be angry... in your bones. I mean, they understand, your foster parents, everybody else understands... for a while. But then they want the angry kid to do something he knows he can’t do. Move on. So, after awhile, they stop understanding. They send the angry kid to a boys home. I figured it out too late. You got to learn to hide the anger. Practice smiling in the mirror. It's like putting on a mask. So, you showed up this one day in a cool car, pretty girl on your arm. We were so excited! Bruce Wayne; billionaire orphan! We use to make up stories about you, man. Legends. And, yah, with the other kids, that's all it was, just stories, but... right when I saw you, I knew who you really were. I'd seen that look on your face before. It was the same one I taught myself. I don't know why you took the fall for Dent's murder, but I'm still a believer in the Batman. Even if you're not.

If you notice the structure, it's never directly about Batman the figure, but about two people who've dealt with pain with no real outlet to truly manifest that in. These two people who faced injustices as young boys, and because of the people they looked up to in their lives (for Bruce, it's his father, for Blake, Batman) it manifested itself in a need for justice. Batman was Bruce's outlet, just as becoming a cop was Blake's. I honestly think if Nolan had given us a quick silent sequence over his monologue where we actually SEE this moment, people would have bought it alot more, but it wasn't a necessity.