The Dark Knight Rises The TDKR General Discussion Thread - - - - - - - - - - - Part 143

[Tacit Ronin]

He's a rookie who also mentions he's in his first year in the script; Blake is only 21-22 tops.

Doesn't change the safe assumption that there were kids older than him in the institution, many of whom had to have their parents murdered. Because it is Gotham. The worst place on the western hemisphere.

And of course Blake lost his father before Bruce became Batman, but still...that was also during a time that Bruce didn't begin his crusade as Batman, but it's only widely guessing to say many of his orphan peers lost their parents to gun violence. It's just a massive assumption even when we are talking about Gotham.

It's a guess but it's a pretty safe one. Some things are just obvious. Even a peaceful Gotham had an orphan problem, a crime infested Gotham was logically even worse. The only "massive" assumption here is that believing Blake and Wayne were the only ones in identical situations. Now, that's a stretch.

Just because there are orphans it means they lost their parents to gun violence or in a similar fashion of SEEING it happen such as Blake and Bruce though?

Sure, why not? What was that thing Carmine Falcone said about mugging in Batman Begins?

And this is again, only widely assuming there are other orphans that lost their parents to gun violence AND saw one or both of their parents die right infront of them.

I don't see the combination of those two incidents as uncommon at all. Especially in a pre batman Gotham.

THAT'S the connection between Robin John Blake and Bruce Wayne.

Blake also had to have similar coping methods as Bruce to have identified all those incriminating emotions under that facade. Another rather contrived coincidence. Perhaps Blake is a love child of Thomas Wayne out of wedlock? That would suddenly make John Blake more plausible.

 

[BatLobster]

And of course Blake lost his father before Bruce became Batman, but still...that was also during a time that Bruce didn't begin his crusade as Batman, but it's only widely guessing to say many of his orphan peers lost their parents to gun violence. It's just a massive assumption even when we are talking about Gotham.

I have to agree with this. What happened to the Waynes was a mugging gone wrong. Most muggings don't end that way. That was a freak occurrence.

It'd be more of a coincidence if St. Swithin's just so happened to be full of kids who witnessed their parents' being murdered. Even if we say Bruce and Blake weren't the only two people in Gotham to experience something like that, the field narrows even more drastically when you say these other kids also had no other family to take them in, became wards of the state and ended up at that exact same orphanage. In fact the reality is most kids who grow up in orphanages have one or both parents living, but they are unwilling or unable to care for them.

 

[Tacit Ronin]

I don't think Wayne turned up only at Blake's orphanage. It makes sense to assume that he went to a lot of places. And the more Gotham orphanages you visit, the more potential orphans you meet of the Blake/Wayne Variety; just not with Blake/Wayne movie character privilege.

 

[BatLobster]

There's no real reason to assume that though. The movie specifically points out St. Swithin's as the orphanage that the Waynes donated to. In fact orphanages are a much more rare to come by in this day and age, as in the US they've been mostly phased out in favor of adoption centers, foster care, etc. It's become a very antiquated thing. The few orphanages that still exist are funded by religious group and charity groups, not the state. I always figured St. Swithin's was either the last remaining orphanage in Gotham or the one most in danger of shutting down, and for that reason the Waynes were trying to keep it afloat.

Even if we're to assume other kids witnessed their parents' being shot to death, there are so other many places they would more likely end up before an orphanage like St. Swithin's would swoop in.

And let's be honest, even if there were 10 orphanages in Gotham, Bruce was not the most active philanthropist at all during his Batman career.

 

[The Guard]

Said it before, I'll say it again:

The issue I have with the scene where Blake reveals that he knows Bruce is Batman, is that if it is in fact supposed to be a nod to Tim Drake finding out Bruce is Batman, it doesn't work very well, because it misses the point: That they figured it out using reasoning skills and detective work, not just based on a feeling they had. It was a missed opportunity to solidify Blake as a good detective, and therefore a worthy successor to Bruce's mantle.

A scene that combined what's already there with a few detective elements would have been fantastic, and nearly-perfect. Instead, it works on an emotional level, but its a bit much to swallow on its own.

 

[BatLobster]

And I'll say it before, I'll say it again- there's no reason to believe Blake didn't apply any reasoning skills (more like common sense- Batman would have to be wealthy, etc.) once he had his initial hunch. The scene just focuses on the emotional aspect of it, because the most important information to get from the scene is the fact that they share the same impulses when it comes to injustice.

Being a good detective has as much to do with having good instincts as it does pure logical reasoning. Those hunches are what separate a good detective from a great detective.

 

[craigdbfan]

They actually do show Blake's detective skills when he is questioning Gordon about Batman. That right there should tell people he wasn't purely using the feeling in his bones to find out Wayne was Batman.

He chose to deliver the reveal to Wayne in a more cryptic way I guess.

 

[BatLobster]

^ Exactly.

 

[The Joker]

Lol, how did I raise the point when you first mentioned Gordon and his wife backed up on a story?

I'm talking about you raising the point of the credibility of it.

I only compared the idea that if someone is fine with that, they should be just as fine with the idea of helping Reese out in a very similar situation of lying. Helping Reese on lying about him not really knowing the identity of Batman and therefore keeping anyone from having to speak to him.

That's not what you were saying. You said if Gordon was not personally interested in knowing who Batman was, then he could make Reese off limits to the investigation.

"Blake told Bruce that Gordon didn't care who Batman was and him being the Commissioner, there would be no way the police would bother to question Reese if Gordon didn't want them to question him."

That's what you said.

Said it before, I'll say it again:

The issue I have with the scene where Blake reveals that he knows Bruce is Batman, is that if it is in fact supposed to be a nod to Tim Drake finding out Bruce is Batman, it doesn't work very well, because it misses the point: That they figured it out using reasoning skills and detective work, not just based on a feeling they had. It was a missed opportunity to solidify Blake as a good detective, and therefore a worthy successor to Bruce's mantle.

A scene that combined what's already there with a few detective elements would have been fantastic, and nearly-perfect. Instead, it works on an emotional level, but its a bit much to swallow on its own.

Exactly.

As for Blake questioning Gordon about Batman, that's not showing detective skills. It just means he has doubts about Batman's guilt. What detective skills did he show by simply repeating the events of the night Dent died and then asking Gordon does he want to know who Batman is?

 

[Tequilla]

They actually do show Blake's detective skills when he is questioning Gordon about Batman. That right there should tell people he wasn't purely using the feeling in his bones to find out Wayne was Batman.

He chose to deliver the reveal to Wayne in a more cryptic way I guess.

Off course.

I honestly feel some people watched a cut version of the movie.

The rooftop scene exists to establish Blake as the fellow who clearly knows something is up. So when they meet , they dont need to establish anything regarding that . The director choice is not the friggin procedure. That's completely and utterly irrelevant. The angle is the bond between them . That's why its such a beautiful scene. Its something they share , that brings them together. And Bruce accepts it.

If there's a truly beautiful scene in that movie , its that one.

This isnt some crappy american tv show , csi and all that bullshiiit

 

[Tacit Ronin]

The movie specifically points out St. Swithin's as the orphanage that the Waynes donated to. In fact orphanages are a much more rare to come by in this day and age, as in the US they've been mostly phased out in favor of adoption centers, foster care, etc.

Regardless of the fact that Gotham is an alternate New York in an alternate America, how true was this, say, twenty years ago? How recent are we talking about? Because if orphanages are being phased out now, it doesn't necessarily mean they were at the height of pre-Batman Gotham's decadence.

Even if we're to assume other kids witnessed their parents' being shot to death, there are so other many places they would more likely end up before an orphanage like St. Swithin's would swoop in.

But some of them would. I am not saying an orphanage would be mostly filled with orphans of the Wayne/Blake variety, but enough that the idea of only Blake being able to see through Wayne's facade more than questionable.

And let's be honest, even if there were 10 orphanages in Gotham, Bruce was not the most active philanthropist at all during his Batman career.

Yes. This took me by surprise when I first watched it. I thought, what, Wayne actually went to these things. But when you think about it, orphans might be something he is sentimentally attached to, and something he might be compelled to break his image of a reluctant philanthropist to attend. Plus, I think most orphanages had TVs, on which they could've perhaps showed its "prince" getting into trouble with his women. Plenty of opportunities for orphans of the Wayne/Blake variety to analyze him.

 

[Tacit Ronin]

As for Blake questioning Gordon about Batman, that's not showing detective skills. It just means he has doubts about Batman's guilt. What detective skills did he show by simply repeating the events of the night Dent died and then asking Gordon does he want to know who Batman is?

Plus, he went to Bruce's house purely on a sentimental hunch, not on any concrete proof. He got absolutely nothing from Gordon. Alfred and Bruce seemed more disposed to not deny it outright when Blake guessed the truth. Thus, Blake was able to best Alfred and Bruce simply because they faltered under questioning, not because of his supreme detective skillz! Bruce and Alfred couold've sternly denied it like Gordon and he would be none the wiser.

 

[BatLobster]

Maybe Blake wasn't the only orphan to ever have the thought. After all, he said all the orphans used to make up stories about him. But how many orphans go on to become cops and have the opportunity to show up at the doorstep of Wayne Manor threatening an arrest warrant?

Again, all these little factors coming together make the possibility of someone like Blake figuring out Batman's identity and then actually getting to put his belief to the test very remote. But, of course Blake exists in this world- he's a character in the movie because he is special, and destiny has something in store for him just like it had something in store for Bruce when his parents were murdered.

So yeah, Blake simply "knowing" is a bit of a shortcut, and it's certainly a bit of movie magic. But for me this is permissible because he is Robin, and as much as this film is about ending Bruce Wayne's story it's also a mini origin story for a new hero in Gotham. I get why a lot of people don't like it, it just never bothered me. My own girlfriend told me she thought that was weak...I told her she'd fit right in on SHH!

 

[TheBat812]

Said it before, I'll say it again:

The issue I have with the scene where Blake reveals that he knows Bruce is Batman, is that if it is in fact supposed to be a nod to Tim Drake finding out Bruce is Batman, it doesn't work very well, because it misses the point: That they figured it out using reasoning skills and detective work, not just based on a feeling they had. It was a missed opportunity to solidify Blake as a good detective, and therefore a worthy successor to Bruce's mantle.

A scene that combined what's already there with a few detective elements would have been fantastic, and nearly-perfect. Instead, it works on an emotional level, but its a bit much to swallow on its own.

That's one way to do it. But for the Nolan's it was about his intuition, and that deeper bond that connected their souls and quests for justice in a way that might be shackled by the law. Rather than simply their abilities as detectives. It was much more thematically relevant the way the Nolan's did it, although admittedly toeing the line of far-fetched. But this is a story, not a depiction of reality, and its strengths storywise/characterwise far outweigh how jarring it initially felt imo. If you'll remember, one of the series' primary themes is "the training is nothing, the will is everything." Having Bruce consider Blake a worthy successor because he showed great skill would fly in the face of that very important idea.

 

[Anno_Domini]

Doesn't change the safe assumption that there were kids older than him in the institution, many of whom had to have their parents murdered. Because it is Gotham. The worst place on the western hemisphere.

It's a guess but it's a pretty safe one. Some things are just obvious. Even a peaceful Gotham had an orphan problem, a crime infested Gotham was logically even worse. The only "massive" assumption here is that believing Blake and Wayne were the only ones in identical situations. Now, that's a stretch.

Sure, why not? What was that thing Carmine Falcone said about mugging in Batman Begins?



I don't see the combination of those two incidents as uncommon at all. Especially in a pre batman Gotham.



Blake also had to have similar coping methods as Bruce to have identified all those incriminating emotions under that facade. Another rather contrived coincidence. Perhaps Blake is a love child of Thomas Wayne out of wedlock? That would suddenly make John Blake more plausible.

I think people are just looking at everything that can be called contrived, really, in TDKR. If the boy shown in BB ended up being Blake, THAT would be contrived, but Blake going through the same hell that Bruce went through...that speaks more to me on how Blake was able to deduce that Bruce is Batman and while, sure, it's any guess that there could have been orphans whose parents were gun down(you say safe guess, I still say just a guess and only that), Bruce and Blake also saw those events happen. Once more, such a risky guess to say there were so many orphans who saw it happen as well.

And you assume mugging means people die. That is not what a mugging is about and what Carmine was referring to was just bad things that can happen to people period.

I have to agree with this. What happened to the Waynes was a mugging gone wrong. Most muggings don't end that way. That was a freak occurrence.

It'd be more of a coincidence if St. Swithin's just so happened to be full of kids who witnessed their parents' being murdered. Even if we say Bruce and Blake weren't the only two people in Gotham to experience something like that, the field narrows even more drastically when you say these other kids also had no other family to take them in, became wards of the state and ended up at that exact same orphanage. In fact the reality is most kids who grow up in orphanages have one or both parents living, but they are unwilling or unable to care for them.

I'm talking about you raising the point of the credibility of it.



That's not what you were saying. You said if Gordon was not personally interested in knowing who Batman was, then he could make Reese off limits to the investigation.

"Blake told Bruce that Gordon didn't care who Batman was and him being the Commissioner, there would be no way the police would bother to question Reese if Gordon didn't want them to question him."

That's what you said.

I forgive you for not reading.

I'm sure authorities would be fine if it's told that Reese is making **** up or Gordon told them to back off on Reese.

^ What I said about Reese with both situations.

 

[Tequilla]

Funny, my sister's favorite part was when the big prisoner threw the detonator out the window. I knew she would enjoy the ferry experiment when I first saw TDK (I even told her she should see it because of Joker's "social experiment"), because she's a sociology major and is a huge believer in rehabilitation. She also had Stanford Prison Experiment guy Philip Zimbardo as a prof. Probably the only Asian woman to be excited to visit a maximum security prison for class. Not a huge Batman fan, but definitely one of the smartest people I know, and a huge nerd about that social stuff.

TDK really does have something for everybody.

I agree the idea is good , and it makes sense in the movie , considering the progress that thematic aspect has in the movie . I think my problem maybe has more to do with the execution. I just found it very flat.

 

[batfreakforever]

What makes someone a fan? like hey I'm a Batman fan or Star wars fan because when I read forums or reviews or opinions it just comes across as if you grew up with the original or first or most liked version or of a character makes you a real fan. Because when a new or latest version comes out these fans say oh its not like the original, thats not the real Batman, thats not what I grew up with. To me those people don't get it. It's not the way it was written or drawn or edited or presented or sounded. It's the themes and ideas behind the story and characters. And story telling is what if? Like what if Batman was old, young, retired, had a partner, alone, married, has a son, in the future, in the past, realistic, fixed the city, murderer, Bruce did'nt become Batman etc. So please when they say the REAL Batman would'nt do that is crap.

 

[The Joker]

I forgive you for not reading.

http://forums.superherohype.com/showpost.php?p=25239759&postcount=784

I forgive you, too.

What makes someone a fan? like hey I'm a Batman fan or Star wars fan because when I read forums or reviews or opinions it just comes across as if you grew up with the original or first or most liked version or of a character makes you a real fan. Because when a new or latest version comes out these fans say oh its not like the original, thats not the real Batman, thats not what I grew up with. To me those people don't get it. It's not the way it was written or drawn or edited or presented or sounded. It's the themes and ideas behind the story and characters. And story telling is what if? Like what if Batman was old, young, retired, had a partner, alone, married, has a son, in the future, in the past, realistic, fixed the city, murderer, Bruce did'nt become Batman etc. So please when they say the REAL Batman would'nt do that is crap.

It's not fair to label who is a fan and who isn't. Nobody has the right to say who is a Batman fan. But it can be valid to say Batman would or wouldn't do something if it does go against the character.

 

[Tacit Ronin]

I think people are just looking at everything that can be called contrived, really, in TDKR.

I'm not looking for anything. I just found it contrived.

If the boy shown in BB ended up being Blake, THAT would be contrived

i agree. That would be even more contrived. We have something that is not as contrived but is still contrived.

but Blake going through the same hell that Bruce went through.

So has a lot of other kids. This is a theory, an assumption, but a pretty safe one. Considering Gotham's status pre-Batman.

that speaks more to me on how Blake was able to deduce that Bruce is Batman and while, sure, it's any guess that there could have been orphans whose parents were gun down(you say safe guess, I still say just a guess and only that), Bruce and Blake also saw those events happen. Once more, such a risky guess to say there were so many orphans who saw it happen as well.

Why is it such a "risky" thing to say that Gotham city would have an orphan problem? Wouldn't it be just as much of a risk in narrative logic if some boy could figure out Batman's identity just by looking at him? Especially when Bruce's entire purpose is misdirection? What is more risky here? A safe assumption based on the world we have been presented with or a cheapening of a character Wayne has manufactured to protect his identity?

And you assume mugging means people die.

And you assume I only assume mugging when it comes to creating parentless orphans. Not even Blake lost his parent to mugging. Gotham's decadence bred desperation on every level. The last course of desperation is murder. Murder can happen on any level, mugging, gambling debt, drug wars, etc.

 

[Anno_Domini]

http://forums.superherohype.com/showpost.php?p=25239759&postcount=784

I forgive you, too.

You forgive me for reading your reply already without having you to post your reply?

Makes sense man.

Please don't assume I only said one way it would've been taken care of such as Gordon only keeping anyone away from speaking to Reese when I did say Gordon can help Reese in lying as well; cool? Cool. If one believes Gordon had his wife back up a story, then it's just silly to NOT believe Gordon helped Reese out.

 

[Anno_Domini]

I'm not looking for anything. I just found it contrived.

i agree. That would be even more contrived. We have something that is not as contrived but is still contrived.

So has a lot of other kids. This is a theory, an assumption, but a pretty safe one. Considering Gotham's status pre-Batman.

Why is it such a "risky" thing to say that Gotham city would have an orphan problem? Wouldn't it be just as much of a risk in narrative logic if some boy could figure out Batman's identity just by looking at him? Especially when Bruce's entire purpose is misdirection? What is more risky here? A safe assumption based on the world we have been presented with or a cheapening of a character Wayne has manufactured to protect his identity?

And you assume I only assume mugging when it comes to creating parentless orphans. Not even Blake lost his parent to mugging. Gotham's decadence bred desperation on every level. The last course of desperation is murder. Murder can happen on any level, mugging, gambling debt, drug wars, etc.

I assume such when you bring up "remember what Carmine Falcone said" in BB. But it's still a wide assumption to say the orphans have lost their parent(s) to gun violence and saw it firsthand. You say it's a safe one, and I disagree wholeheartedly.

 

[Tacit Ronin]

I assume such when you bring up "remember what Carmine Falcone said" in BB. But it's still a wide assumption to say the orphans have lost their parent(s) to gun violence and saw it firsthand. You say it's a safe one, and I disagree wholeheartedly.

I assume such when you bring up "remember what Carmine Falcone said" in BB.

That was an example of the state of Gotham. Mugging was a casual thing. But that doesn't mean mugging caused Bruce-esque orphans, but the idea that crime was very high. And the higher the crime the higher the percentage of any sort of crime.

But it's still a wide assumption to say the orphans have lost their parent(s) to gun violence and saw it firsthand.

Do you have to see it firsthand?

Here's what Blake said, "My dad got shot a couple years later in a gambling debt, and I remember that one just fine". It's unclear if he saw it first hand or not. "Remembering" could just mean that he was old enough to recall the incident, not that he saw it like Bruce.

 

[BatLobster]

Blake also said, "Not many people know what it feels like...". Based on that line, whether one agrees with this depiction of Gotham or not, I think it can be inferred that a situation like Blake and Bruce's is a more rare thing. There are just so many other more likely causes of death than gun violence, even in a city like Gotham. It's arguable whether Blake witnessed his father's murder or not, but I always interpreted his line that way.

And again, how many orphans become cops? Blake is a rather exceptional case.

 

[Tacit Ronin]

Blake also said, "Not many people know what it feels like...".

Exactly, not many, but some do. It's not a case of the two being the only ones in GOtham to go through that.

And again, how many orphans become cops? Blake is a rather exceptional case.

Wasn't Gotham sort of a police state within the eight year gap? The civil rights of Harvey Dent's captured middle men were almost next to nothing. Being a cop would seem to be a a shining career prospect. Especially to those kids who grew up in a pre Batman GOtham, later inspired by the man himself to do good.

 

[Brain Damage]

It kills me how much I hate the way Blake discovers Bruce's secret, because that scene is some of the finest acting JGL's ever done on screen.