The Dark Knight Rises The TDKR General Discussion Thread - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 144

[BatLobster]

I've struggled with a knee injury for a couple years and I'll say this - the pain and issues are worse when I'm inactive for long periods of time.

If Bruce was still active as a businessman, then he was still moving around. The knee might have afflicted him a bit, but if he had no plans to be Batman again I doubt he cared to see someone about the knee.

But once he became a hermit 5 years later and stopped pretty much doing anything, that high level of inactivity is most likely what made his knee problem worse.

Yup, and the fact that the doctor tells him he has no cartilage in his knee is indicative of arthritis. And depending on the type of arthritis it is, it can take effect years after an injury and/or worsen due to inactivity.

Luckily none of this is coming from experience on my end.

 

[Marvolo]

I've struggled with a knee injury for a couple years and I'll say this - the pain and issues are worse when I'm inactive for long periods of time.

If Bruce was still active as a businessman, then he was still moving around. The knee might have afflicted him a bit, but if he had no plans to be Batman again I doubt he cared to see someone about the knee.

But once he became a hermit 5 years later and stopped pretty much doing anything, that high level of inactivity is most likely what made his knee problem worse.

I can back you up on this. I have a bum wrist and when I don't keep active it seems to bother me more than when I use it. Scar tissue is a ***** and if Bruce didn't work it out after the initial injury he was hurting himself more in the long run.

Once again who the **** wants to see Bruce as a cripple? Lol I just don't get the fascination Nolan had with this.

I always thought they were going with Dr. Strange. He is obsessed with Batman and Bruce and knows his secret. After the ending of TDK I thought for sure Bruce would start seeing a psychiatrist for the rachel trauma and stress of hiding from the cops and taking the heat for the Joker's crimes. Strange would become obsessed with this fascinating man and his dichotomy and would figure it out and make Bruce/Batman his muse and act out some scheme in some ****ed up love/hate client/patient destructive nature. Obviously the film would start with Bruce already seeing Dr. Strange and from there it spirals until the end when Batman finally clears his name and the film ends with Gotham finally accepting Batman as their guardian and he becomes the Knight they need and deserve. That story could have had a deep psychological nature which should have been right up Nolan's alley.

 

[Anno_Domini]

Arthritis is a *****. My dad is getting it on his back these days after having it all over his knees and feet.

 

[BatLobster]

I think people are just reluctant to see Bruce as anything but an uber-badass. Anything showing any frailty on his part seems to be risky ground to tread on with the fans.

For me, seeing how far he had let himself go really hit home the fact that Bruce was a walking tragedy. It made me want to see him put himself back together. It gives so much more meaning to when he retires again at the end and is actually happy. Without that setup I'd probably be suspicious that Bruce wouldn't be able to live without Batman. Having it be his second retirement, but this time done on his own terms fixes a lot of those issues.

I always thought they were going with Dr. Strange. He is obsessed with Batman and Bruce and knows his secret. After the ending of TDK I thought for sure Bruce would start seeing a psychiatrist for the rachel trauma and stress of hiding from the cops and taking the heat for the Joker's crimes. Strange would become obsessed with this fascinating man and his dichotomy and would figure it out and make Bruce/Batman his muse and act out some scheme in some ****ed up love/hate client/patient destructive nature. Obviously the film would start with Bruce already seeing Dr. Strange and from there it spirals until the end when Batman finally clears his name and the film ends with Gotham finally accepting Batman as their guardian and he becomes the Knight they need and deserve. That story could have had a deep psychological nature which should have been right up Nolan's alley.

We all had our own "Batman 3" in our heads at one point or another. Thankfully, I like theirs better than mine. I was also a Hugo Strange supporter btw.

 

[shauner111]

I see the leg thing, as a mental issue just as much as a physical one.

This is a severely depressed man. He stews in his pain, both internally and externally. I always looked at the leg fix as...Bruce finally asking Fox (or maybe it's suggested to him by Fox) to have a knee-brace only because he gets excited about going out to face Bane and mess around with Selina. That's the only thing that gets him out of his mansion in the last 3 years. The knee-brace isn't slapped on him so he can have a better leg finally, he puts it on because he needs to operate as Batman and he's dying to get back out there. Just like when Bruce asks Alfred to make an appointment for his leg, it had nothing to do with health reasons. Selina excites him sure, but he goes to the hospital to seek out Gordon, he wants to check on him and find out info about Bane (again, it's all about Batman) and in a way he's looking to get talked into going back as Batman.

The cane is just as much of a crutch and a reminder as it is a physical disability.

It's like Harvey. He could have taken meds and had plastic surgery. Nope, he wanted to stew in the pain and his anger so it serves as an excuse.

Yes Bane should have teamed with the police. It's pretty obvious. Bane works better as a villain who obsesses over batman and can gain his identity on his own and has no ties to him other than being hired to capture him to gain respect. Then bane turns on police after he takes out batman. batman returns and saves the day,

That sounds OK but a bit boring. I prefer what we got.

 

[Anno_Domini]

But the thing is...cops shouldn't have had to hire some mercenary that ends up being the villain. That's like trying to copy the mob making dealings with Joker that happened just the previous film. And would cops actually do that? Hire this weird character named Bane? That's like the NYPD having a bounty hunter that wears weird get up...that's even more weird than Dog the Bounty Hunter, lol.

Let alone the Commissioner wouldn't hire some guy like Bane to help them out anyways. And nor would a good mayor like Garcia either.

If the GCPD were to hunt Batman down, Bane should have his own agenda and not trying to help the cops, or whoever the villain were to be.

I can back you up on this. I have a bum wrist and when I don't keep active it seems to bother me more than when I use it. Scar tissue is a ***** and if Bruce didn't work it out after the initial injury he was hurting himself more in the long run.

Once again who the **** wants to see Bruce as a cripple? Lol I just don't get the fascination Nolan had with this.

I always thought they were going with Dr. Strange. He is obsessed with Batman and Bruce and knows his secret. After the ending of TDK I thought for sure Bruce would start seeing a psychiatrist who would become obsessed with this fascinating man and his dichotomy and would figure it out and make Bruce/Batman his muse and act out some scheme in some ****ed up love/hate client/patient destructive nature. Obviously the film would start with Bruce already seeing Dr. Strange and from there it spirals until the end when Batman finally clears his name and the film ends with Gotham finally accepting Batman as their guardian and he becomes the Knight they need and deserve.

That idea would be great for a reboot, imo. Bruce Wayne having anger issues outside of being Batman and being ordered to speak to a psychiatrist daily who happens to be Hugo Strange. Something like the recent Hannibal series with Will Graham and his psychiatrist being Hannibal Lecter.

But I will always like the way how Bruce gets a happy ending in the end and passed the legacy down to someone else. It's a risk, but I like risks in CBMs(that works well...not silly risks like IM3). Bruce Wayne being in a state where he retired as Batman because after all that happened in TDK, something good came out of it, even through a lie, via the Dent Act that cleaned Gotham up but Bruce needs to return as Batman to rightfully clean up Gotham and give the city the hero with a face. And Bruce being crippled for the first thirty or so minutes was this metaphor of everything Bruce had lost. Losing Rachel, losing his company and losing the company's money...it's a somber tone, but it made for a perfect ending.

 

[BatLobster]

Yeah, that's the thing. A happy ending is a very risk ending for Batman. It could have potentially been terrible and all wrong. They had to really earn it by hammering home how much of an empty shell Bruce had become. Somber was the right way to go to set everything up.

 

[shauner111]

I was also a Hugo Strange supporter. Marvolo's premise was pretty much how I wanted it. But that's when I thought it could take place a year or so after the events of TDK.

I wanted Strange as the main villain. Catwoman in her supporting role. Black Mask OR Alberto Falcone in a small role, not taking over for Maroni, but a whole new organization. Dent's lie hanging above the film as it was and a Joker reference. But it would have been the end of that Nolan-Bale trilogy, only the end of Batman in his prime. Much like how Marc Webb/Andrew Garfield may complete their "teenage Parker trilogy" then pass it off to a new filmmaker who can continue the story of Spider-Man deep into his career.

That's what I thought. I thought a different director was going to come in and re-cast Bale and bring Grayson in & tackle some more rogues like Riddler/Penguin.

A part of me is still intrigued by that idea, but nowadays I wouldn't trade in TDKR for anything. I love it too much.

 

[bilbo baggins]

bruce has been to hell and back. i mean he lost his longtime love since childhood, his body is wrecked at 39 or 40, just like officer dingle told him he has scar tissue on his kidneys, concussive brain tissue damage,etc. he lived a lie for 8 years! his adoptive father kept the truth that his long dead love had planned to marry another man which DESTROYED HIM! he failed as bruce wayne during this 8 year gap. i mean in my opinion im impressed he wasnt worse than he was. this guy couldnt catch a break. it was painful to watch this movie unfold if you kept all of the above in mind. so yes to see him be at peace with someone who understands him at the end is very fulfilling indeed.

 

[shauner111]

Absolutely.

 

[bilbo baggins]

I guess the knee thing and the prison were more metaphorical than literal. But the series (and Nolan) has been painfully literal this far, you can't expect the fans to suddenly accept a curveball with metaphorical storytelling as opposed to the practical and expository nature of the first two.[/QUOTE as much as i like tdkr i think you just totally nailed it. thats it in a nutshell.

 

[Isearch4dope]

I can back you up on this. I have a bum wrist and when I don't keep active it seems to bother me more than when I use it. Scar tissue is a ***** and if Bruce didn't work it out after the initial injury he was hurting himself more in the long run.

Once again who the **** wants to see Bruce as a cripple? Lol I just don't get the fascination Nolan had with this.

I always thought they were going with Dr. Strange. He is obsessed with Batman and Bruce and knows his secret. After the ending of TDK I thought for sure Bruce would start seeing a psychiatrist for the rachel trauma and stress of hiding from the cops and taking the heat for the Joker's crimes. Strange would become obsessed with this fascinating man and his dichotomy and would figure it out and make Bruce/Batman his muse and act out some scheme in some ****ed up love/hate client/patient destructive nature. Obviously the film would start with Bruce already seeing Dr. Strange and from there it spirals until the end when Batman finally clears his name and the film ends with Gotham finally accepting Batman as their guardian and he becomes the Knight they need and deserve. That story could have had a deep psychological nature which should have been right up Nolan's alley.

Exactomundo!!!t:This is really where I thought the series was headed or something like it because the psychological cat and mouse games are very intriguing and that's what made TDK shine. The comic Strange Apparitions had some very good points that could have been burrowed to make a mind blowing finale. This was the movie to take us deeper into the mind of Bruce and really take us places we have never been before to bring us that close to the character. I know people say that things had to be amped up and the movie was huge and the scale was massive but honestly the movie felt small and shallow. After the Joker and the events of TDK the only way the sequel could have avoided feeling like 'yea yea we've seen this before' was to go smaller and more psychological. A final conflict that threatens to destroy the city would occur at the end with batman redeeming himself and clearing his name would still occur tho. Just my opinion *runs for cover*

 

[BatLobster]

After the Joker and the events of TDK the only way the sequel could have avoided feeling like 'yea yea we've seen this before' was to go smaller and more psychological.

Or going larger, grander and more epic. TDKR may have elements of its two predecessors but it's very much cut from its own cloth.

 

[shauner111]

Exactomundo!!!t:This is really where I thought the series was headed or something like it because the psychological cat and mouse games are very intriguing and that's what made TDK shine. The comic Strange Apparitions had some very good points that could have been burrowed to make a mind blowing finale. This was the movie to take us deeper into the mind of Bruce and really take us places we have never been before to bring us that close to the character. I know people say that things had to be amped up and the movie was huge and the scale was massive but honestly the movie felt small and shallow. After the Joker and the events of TDK the only way the sequel could have avoided feeling like 'yea yea we've seen this before' was to go smaller and more psychological. A final conflict that threatens to destroy the city would occur at the end with batman redeeming himself and clearing his name would still occur tho. Just my opinion *runs for cover*

Grander or smaller would have worked. If it was the end of the trilogy altogether, bigger was the answer. If it was just film #3 and then they would keep the franchise going with re-casts, then smaller would have been the answer.

"The movie felt small and shallow". I felt it was the opposite. But yes, a psychological Strange story set only in Gotham in Autumn/Winter, would have felt great too. Just not as a finale. There would need to be a cliffhanger for a film #4 since it's Batman in his early days.

 

[BatLobster]

If they had went the smaller, Hugo Strange route, I think no matter how good it would have turned out...if in this imaginary scenario it came out there was a version of the script setting on the shelf that was influenced by Dark Knight Returns, Knightfall and No Man's Land, Bane of the Demon, The Demon Trilogy etc...I'm pretty sure I'd be like, "Why the f*** didn't we get that movie? Cause it sounds epic."

And it was t:

 

[bilbo baggins]

bruce has been to hell and back. i mean he lost his longtime love since childhood, his body is wrecked at 39 or 40, just like officer dingle told him he has scar tissue on his kidneys, concussive brain tissue damage,etc. he lived a lie for 8 years! his adoptive father kept the truth that his long dead love had planned to marry another man which DESTROYED HIM! he failed as bruce wayne during this 8 year gap. i mean in my opinion im impressed he wasnt worse than he was. this guy couldnt catch a break. it was painful to watch this movie unfold if you kept all of the above in mind. so yes to see him be at peace with someone who understands him at the end is very fulfilling indeed.

with that being said, could you imagine if nolan actually killed bruce!!?? it imo would have been the biggest debby downer trilogies off all time.

 

[Isearch4dope]

Or going larger, grander and more epic. TDKR may have elements of its two predecessors but it's very much cut from its own cloth.

If that's your idea of larger, grander and more epic I envy you and everyone else who thought so. Maybe I have too much imaginationt: I'm not denying it was cut from it's own clothe but I feel like so many better pieces of fabric were there to choose from but they just picked up the closest one to themselves.

 

[shauner111]

If they had went the smaller, Hugo Strange route, I think no matter how good it would have turned out...if in this imaginary scenario it came out there was a version of the script setting on the shelf that was influenced by Dark Knight Returns, Knightfall and No Man's Land, Bane of the Demon, The Demon Trilogy etc...I'm pretty sure I'd be like, "Why the f*** didn't we get that movie? Cause it sounds epic."

And it was t:

Oh man hahah. If I saw a really cool Strange movie then heard we could have had a combo of those graphic novels, with something of a left turn..i would be pretty annoyed. Im sure everyone here would be complaining just as much as they are now. There's always stuff to complain about!

Quite frankly, I wouldn't sacrifice Tom Hardy's version of Bane for Hugo Strange. Even if Strange was played by Christoph Waltz (which is still a great option!), I still wouldn't trade.

Bane has been a huge favorite of mine since I was a kid. It SHOCKED me when I heard the news. I was disappointed cuz I was looking forward to Strange but I always prefer the unpredictable route.

 

[Isearch4dope]

Grander or smaller would have worked. If it was the end of the trilogy altogether, bigger was the answer. If it was just film #3 and then they would keep the franchise going with re-casts, then smaller would have been the answer.

"The movie felt small and shallow". I felt it was the opposite. But yes, a psychological Strange story set only in Gotham in Autumn/Winter, would have felt great too. Just not as a finale. There would need to be a cliffhanger for a film #4 since it's Batman in his early days.

Did you all read the end of the post? t: I'm talking smaller in the sense of getting more into Bruce's psyche unravelling into a just as massive finale. Somehow I felt like we needed to get behind another layer of Bruce's character because I still feel like I don't know him fully. Although the scale is massive I just got this feeling things are just happening and people are running around doing things just to get to the end. There's a difference between actually being epic and saying that something is epic because it is big and it's the finale and it's the last stand etct:

 

[shauner111]

I thought we got into his psyche quite a bit. But if you mean REALLY going deep, like there's some scenes that were cut from Batman Forever that were more serious with Kilmer, that could be some of the deepest we've seen from the character. No doubt they would have went almost all the way in a psychological 1 on 1 between Hugo and Bruce. But like I said, I feel TDKR was extremely character based when it came to Bruce. I don't think it needed any more with the story they were trying to tell.

No matter what you're going to get ppl running around doing things just to get to the end if it's the final film. Even in a smaller scale film, it's still a Batman movie, and you can't cover every aspect of his mind. There's too much there. That's what makes him fascinating, there needs to be some room for imagination.

There's still the reboot, and im sure they'll zone in on his detective skills AND his psyche in ways that haven't been done before.

 

[milost]

I've struggled with a knee injury for a couple years and I'll say this - the pain and issues are worse when I'm inactive for long periods of time.

If Bruce was still active as a businessman, then he was still moving around. The knee might have afflicted him a bit, but if he had no plans to be Batman again I doubt he cared to see someone about the knee.

But once he became a hermit 5 years later and stopped pretty much doing anything, that high level of inactivity is most likely what made his knee problem worse.

Yeah, but you're not a billionaire that has a CEO inventor that can give you "just the thing" for your knee injury.


Bruce Wayne does. It's ludicrous that he wouldn't have one or wasn't given one during those 8 years. Not to be able bodied for Batman (though that would be nice if Gotham wasn't miraculously cleaned of "serious crime"), but for Bruce Wayne. Staying in the mansion for 8 years, doing absolutely nothing? I know he was frozen in time but he wouldn't even try to walk right without a cane?


The injury and knee brace was simply a forced plot device that's simply done away with after the first half or so of the movie. There is no logic behind it. Wayne suffered from more serious injuries in the past and already had the technology to deal with it.












Oh, and a psychological Batman film as opposed to what we got would have been brilliant, be it Hugo Strange or whatever. I'd much rather have seen that play out than "physical opponent, hope and despair".

 

[Isearch4dope]

I thought we got into his psyche quite a bit. But if you mean REALLY going deep, like there's some scenes that were cut from Batman Forever that were more serious with Kilmer, that could be some of the deepest we've seen from the character. No doubt they would have went almost all the way in a psychological 1 on 1 between Hugo and Bruce. But like I said, I feel TDKR was extremely character based when it came to Bruce. I don't think it needed any more with the story they were trying to tell.

No matter what you're going to get ppl running around doing things just to get to the end if it's the final film. Even in a smaller scale film, it's still a Batman movie, and you can't cover every aspect of his mind. There's too much there. That's what makes him fascinating, there needs to be some room for imagination.

There's still the reboot, and im sure they'll zone in on his detective skills AND his psyche in ways that haven't been done before.

Yea guess you're right but that's the thing. That's the feeling I got from the entire movie....this is the story we are trying to tell so we'll tell at any cost to hammer home the major theme. Guess the reboot will quell my thirst. Bane was the perfect villain to end this trilogy although I didn't like his arc and character that much. I would've preferred a more personal psychological battle between him and bats. I would have loved to see Bane only wear his mask as a symbol and have dual identities like Bruce which would give him more freedom to be and do more with the role.

 

[shauner111]

Yeah, but you're not a billionaire that has a CEO inventor that can give you "just the thing" for your knee injury.


Bruce Wayne does. It's ludicrous that he wouldn't have one or wasn't given one during those 8 years. Not to be able bodied for Batman (though that would be nice if Gotham wasn't miraculously cleaned of "serious crime"), but for Bruce Wayne. Staying in the mansion for 8 years, doing absolutely nothing? I know he was frozen in time but he wouldn't even try to walk right without a cane?


The injury and knee brace was simply a forced plot device that's simply done away with after the first half or so of the movie. There is no logic behind it. Wayne suffered from more serious injuries in the past and already had the technology to deal with it.

It's not about technology, read what I wrote on this page.

I see the leg thing, as a mental issue just as much as a physical one.

This is a severely depressed man. He stews in his pain, both internally and externally. I always looked at the leg fix as...Bruce finally asking Fox (or maybe it's suggested to him by Fox) to have a knee-brace only because he gets excited about going out to face Bane and mess around with Selina. That's the only thing that gets him out of his mansion in the last 3 years. The knee-brace isn't slapped on him so he can have a better leg finally, he puts it on because he needs to operate as Batman and he's dying to get back out there. Just like when Bruce asks Alfred to make an appointment for his leg, it had nothing to do with health reasons. Selina excites him sure, but he goes to the hospital to seek out Gordon, he wants to check on him and find out info about Bane (again, it's all about Batman) and in a way he's looking to get talked into going back as Batman.

The cane is just as much of a crutch and a reminder as it is a physical disability.

It's like Harvey. He could have taken meds and had plastic surgery. Nope, he wanted to stew in the pain and his anger so it serves as an excuse.

And he didn't stay in the mansion for 8 years doing absolutely nothing. He stayed in there for 3.

Yea guess you're right but that's the thing. That's the feeling I got from the entire movie....this is the story we are trying to tell so we'll tell at any cost. Guess the reboot will quell my thirst. Bane was the perfect villain to end this trilogy although I didn't like his arc and character that much. I would've preferred a more personal psychological battle between him and bats. I would have loved to see Bane only wear his mask as a symbol and have dual identities like Bruce which would give him more freedom to be and do more with the role.

IMO that's the way it should be. As a director/writer you should have the control and freedom to tell whatever story it is you want to tell. If there's too many cooks in the kitchen or theyre hearing everyone's opinion, it becomes very limited. Art shouldn't be watered down like that. Nolan told his story despite what others thought. WB gave him that freedom, and that's how it should be in Hollywood as far as im concerned. This is why I enjoy independent films a lot more.

I preferred the move of making Bane not able to take the mask off. It was a great parallel. Bruce can walk away from his pain, he has the ability to...it's a matter of choice. Bane doesn't have that choice. He's on a suicidal mission. He can't escape his pain even if he wants to.

Sorry but im going to side with Nolan's interpretation on that one.

 

[Isearch4dope]

Yeah, but you're not a billionaire that has a CEO inventor that can give you "just the thing" for your knee injury.


Bruce Wayne does. It's ludicrous that he wouldn't have one or wasn't given one during those 8 years. Not to be able bodied for Batman (though that would be nice if Gotham wasn't miraculously cleaned of "serious crime"), but for Bruce Wayne. Staying in the mansion for 8 years, doing absolutely nothing? I know he was frozen in time but he wouldn't even try to walk right without a cane?


The injury and knee brace was simply a forced plot device that's simply done away with after the first half or so of the movie. There is no logic behind it. Wayne suffered from more serious injuries in the past and already had the technology to deal with it.




Oh, and a psychological Batman film as opposed to what we got would have been brilliant, be it Hugo Strange or whatever. I'd much rather have seen that play out than "physical opponent, hope and despair".

He only hid in his mansion for three years I believe. After Dr. Pavel revealed that he could turn the fusion reactor into a bomb. There's no way way the leg injury was a psychological injury. If he was so eager to go back out there he wouldn't have put it on in the first place so it was indeed legit and they just threw it away like it wasn't there during and after the pit. What I still can't stomach up to now is that a child can make a jump grown men can't. Won't even get into rope specifics because it still doesn't make sense because as we can see during Bruce's attempts that his hands touched the ledge so the problem really lies in her being able to make the jump any at all. I know fear found her an all but it could have been done better. I know the other movies aren't perfect regarding physics but this one is a head scratcher and took me out of the experience.

A stellar psychological film with Bane could have been made using almost the same scenario as TDKR.

 

[Kane52630]

I know there's tons of TDKR pics that I can't remember anymore but I dig this pic.