The Dark Knight Rises The TDKR General Discussion Thread - - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 145

[Travesty]

Erm, no. I never used the phrase "missing persons reports". I made a simple point that just because someone is considered missing or vanished doesn't preclude people from claiming to see that person. This is a very simple concept. Read Gotham Knight's post from above. Seriously, try it.

But the thing you keep missing(will he understand this? Who knows...), is that when someone is considered missing, it isn't the same thing as being vanished, yet, you kept making that connection.

Missing doesn't equal vanished, but for some reason, you're making it out to be the same thing in your silly example.

Please show where I used the words "vanishing person report". LOL what are you even talking about at this point?. You're making up things that nobody has said and using them to support erroneous claims while making the discussion personal . What was once about the idea of Gothamites making claims of false sightings is now about something else entirely. At this point you're just being rude and illogical with the words you're putting into others' mouths.

I never once claimed you did, I was just making fun of you. Again, you're making up the point that missing and vanished means the same thing, just because someone like Hoffa went missing. But hell, maybe you don't even know where you were trying to go with your example?

You blamed me for having a semantic debate, yet, you kept trying to make "missing" and "vanish" sound like they were the same thing. Ironic!

 

[georgec]

"Missing or vanished."

The word 'or' is not a signifier of equality.

The only person making this false equivalency is you. And it's serving no purpose except for you to derail the discussion into nonsense so that you can avoid the simple points that have been elucidated repeatedly. You're not even insisting on your false claims from before - by your own admission you're just "making fun".

Seems like multiple other posters grasp this simple concept without having to obfuscate everything by illogical semantics. I wonder why, LOL.

 

[Travesty]

Blake says that the last confirmed sighting of Batman was the night Dent died then he vanished. Is it so hard to believe in the possibility that the media or random people seeing things would say that they saw Batman. Unconfirmed, untrue, sightings. Blake may not believe them, hence "vanishing".

So now we're relying on the hope that Blake didn't believe the reports of other people, even though he said Batman was vanished?

Then why, must I ask, didn't he just say "unconfirmed sightings", and never breath the word "vanish"? I mean, it sounds so simple, but hell, let's make it as complicated and contrived as possible....

 

[Snow Queen]

So now we're relying on the hope that Blake didn't believe the reports of other people, even though he said Batman was vanished?

Then why, must I ask, didn't he just say "unconfirmed sightings", and never breath the word "vanish"? I mean, it sounds so simple, but hell, let's make it as complicated and contrived as possible....

Why do you find it so hard to believe that even one guy called 9-1-1, said he saw Batman, but they were just seeing things? Batman's last confirmed sighting was when Dent died, then he was never seen again. He vanished. But people, as people do, would imagine that they saw him and say that they did.

 

[Travesty]

Why do you find it so hard to believe that even one guy called 9-1-1, said he saw Batman, but they were just seeing things? Batman's last confirmed sighting was when Dent died, then he was never seen again. He vanished. But people, as people do, would imagine that they saw him and say that they did.

Which again, he wouldn't have been vanished, he would have been unconfirmed.

I've done it. I've wasted my life on something so simple to understand, yet, I fell in the internet trap tonight.

 

[shauner111]

Funny how Trav won't acknowledge theShape's post though. Hmm I wonder why?

 

[Travesty]

Funny how Trav won't acknowledge theShape's post though. Hmm I wonder why?

Didn't see/read it, maybe?

 

[Travesty]

If someone like the Batman "vanished" from the public eye, would we all automatically assume the dude retired? Nope, especially not right away and not after this person had been outed as a killer. Think back to when that cop killer (Dorner) was on the loose in LA recently. Literally hundreds of people were calling in, claiming (and often believing) they had sighted this man. I don't think anyone really did. At least no one reported anything substantial or "confirmed" until this guy took some people hostage or stole a car or some **** like that. He was obviously eventually cornered and killed, but if he was never seen again, would all of us have just assumed he gave up his tirade right away? I think time would need to pass before the paranoia subsided.

Saying someone saw a black dude in some regular looking pickup truck is a far cry from saying someone saw a guy dressed in a Batsuit with a completely unique vehicle. And again, nobody said Dorner "vanished", just that he was missing, which seems to be something that you guys keep getting mixed up, which is kinda strange.

(and for any of you who didn't know the story, different pickup trucks were pulled over or shot at by cops thinking it was Dorner, along with a lot of racial profiling)

The script identifies the night Dent died as the last "confirmed" sighting of the Batman because it was. Dozens of cops literally watched his cape billow as he ran away from them into the night. These officers could easily corroborate each other's stories, that they saw the Batman. From that point on, however, I'd imagine there would be plenty of unsubstantiated claims coming from Gotham citizens while this cop killer (Batman) was still on the loose. "911? I was walking home tonight and I swear that I saw the Batman in an alley down here"...**** like that. Happens all the time in reality. People are paranoid when large-scale tragedies hit. I'd imagine the situation would be even more extreme if we were talking about a masked vigilante who had become somewhat of a "myth". These unsubstantiated claims clearly are different than "confirmed sightings".

Again, if something is unconfirmed, that means that Batman never vanished. Even if the reports were false, it still contradicts what "vanishes" even means.

So while WE know Batman really did hang it all up after that, it's safe to safe citizens of Gotham did not, at least not until things died down. I don't understand what's so crazy about georgec's speculation. Seems completely logical, if you stop focusing on semantics.

Focusing on semantics? Compared to what, nothing else except your own false interpretation of things that contradict what the director or script says? The weird thing is, I find most of you playing on the semantics-card more than anything else.

 

[Shikamaru]

Before this thread gets too heated....

Just curious, where would you guys rank all the Bat films?

Been scrolling through the last few pages and noticed this post.

Sticking only to live-action:

1) TDK
2) BB
3) Batman Forever
4) Batman '89
5) TDKR
6) Batman '66 / Batman Returns
7) Batman & Robin

Forever at #3 may surprise a lot of people. Maybe I'm a bit blinded by nostalgia since it was the first Batman film I remember seeing as a kid, but it was always my favorite of the previous Batman franchise and I think it's just ok. It's not as bad as people say it is IMO. I feel that a lot of the bad rep it gets comes from Batman & Robin. I'm not saying there aren't any legitimate criticisms that people have (there are in fact a lot). Rather that I feel some people are actually talking about Batman & Robin when they rant on Forever.

 

[shauner111]

He doesn't need vehicles Travesty, and if he was out there after TDK he certainly wouldn't use them. He'd stay in the shadows.

And I agree with Shikamaru about Forever. It's overlooked and I feel that it has 2 massive extremes in the films before and after it...it's as if it gets lost in the shuffle. I happen to think it's the most entertaining and heroic Batman movie after 89, excluding Nolan's films.

 

[Travesty]

He doesn't need vehicles Travesty, and if he was out there after TDK he certainly wouldn't use them. He'd stay in the shadows.

Right, cause he's good on his limp knee the entire time. I mean, we saw him disappear into the shadows at the end of TDK, without the need of any vehicle.

 

[regwec]

Some of the wishful thinking here is almost embarrassing. Some of you are so eager for Batman's 8 year holiday to be slightly less of a disappointing cop-out that you are willing to impute entire conversations into the movie. Ironically, I have seen some of you also praise the 8 year holiday for its dramatic/thematic/structural/whatever value. Doesn't your crudely inserted fan fiction rather undermine that?

 

[Snow Queen]

Some of the wishful thinking here is almost embarrassing. Some of you are so eager for Batman's 8 year holiday to be slightly less of a disappointing cop-out that you are willing to impute entire conversations into the movie. Ironically, I have seen some of you also praise the 8 year holiday for its dramatic/thematic/structural/whatever value. Doesn't your crudely inserted fan fiction rather undermine that?

All anyone's said (as far as I've seen) is that maybe there are some false reports that people saw Batman (going off of the quote from Blake about Dent's death being the last confirmed sighting instead of just last sighting). I don't care either way, I like the 8 years Bruce spends away from Batman, but I don't see anyone saying anything fanfic-y like Bruce went out and fought Mr. Freeze after TDK.

 

[Travesty]

All anyone's said (as far as I've seen) is that maybe there are some false reports that people saw Batman (going off of the quote from Blake about Dent's death being the last confirmed sighting instead of just last sighting).

That's definitely not how it started off at all. That's just how far on the deep end it turned out to be, to try and "prove" that Batman was somehow active, even if he was just somehow mentioned.

 

[Tequilla]

The confirmed word is purposely inserted to leave that chance in the air. Maybe someone said they saw him . Officially he is gone , that's really it. Unofficially...who knows. That's kinda irrelevant to the movie , the mechanics of his vanishing. A day after dent's death , that night , a week...who cares. Batman serves no purpose after a while , that's the issue.

If Nolan wanted the audience to know he operated for a while , that line is waaay too subtle. But he also doesn't adhere to the necessity of him gone that same night. Hence , the confirmed.

 

[The_Raganork]

It really is just a case of subpar writing.

Or course "Confirmed" implies unconfirmed, whispers, rumors of seeing Batma. Or else Blake would have said: "The last time anyone ever saw Batman was the night Dent was killed"

Of course "Vanished" implies never seen again. People don't vanish but have frequent or infrequent sightings. That's contradictory to the word 'vanished'.

Trav's right of course.

There is absolutely nothing else in TDKR that even remotely suggest that Batman was seen after the TDK incident with Harvey. Everything implies he went home that night and gave it all up for good.

But yes some of you are clever to pick up on Blake's stupid line where he both lends to the possibility of Post-TDK/Pre-TDKR Batman sightings and eliminates that possibility in the same sentence.

 

[Tequilla]

Officialy he is vanished. There's nothing contradictory .

Stupid or not , its there. And it makes perfect sense.

 

[BatLobster]

It really is just a case of subpar writing.

Or course "Confirmed" implies unconfirmed, whispers, rumors of seeing Batma. Or else Blake would have said: "The last time anyone ever saw Batman was the night Dent was killed"

Of course "Vanished" implies never seen again. People don't vanish but have frequent or infrequent sightings. That's contradictory to the word 'vanished'.

Trav's right of course.

There is absolutely nothing else in TDKR that even remotely suggest that Batman was seen after the TDK incident with Harvey. Everything implies he went home that night and gave it all up for good.

But yes some of you are clever to pick up on Blake's stupid line where he both lends to the possibility of Post-TDK/Pre-TDKR Batman sightings and eliminates that possibility in the same sentence.

Nobody is even trying to argue that Batman was seen again. People have only been trying to say that people could have reported false sightings that couldn't be corroborated.

Then you have the possibility that Bruce/Batman did some work completely under the radar before the Dent Act was passed, as he is trained for stealth. Or if you believe he was unable to walk without a cane the morning after TDK (I don't), at the very least, keeping an eye on things via the Batcomputer.

Some of the wishful thinking here is almost embarrassing. Some of you are so eager for Batman's 8 year holiday to be slightly less of a disappointing cop-out that you are willing to impute entire conversations into the movie. Ironically, I have seen some of you also praise the 8 year holiday for its dramatic/thematic/structural/whatever value. Doesn't your crudely inserted fan fiction rather undermine that?

I'll bite because I'm the only one here who has really explicitly engaged in fanfiction (albeit to try and make a point). I've already asserted that the reason I am doing it is because it's fun, and I think it can be done without compromising the character motivations/plot as presented in the movies. I'm trying to explain why if tomorrow DC Comics released a TDKR prequel comic called "The Unconfirmed Sightings", I would not consider it a hard retcon. There are ways to tell that story while staying consistent with everything that was stated in the movie.

As a film fan, I see nothing wrong with the idea that Batman retired the night Dent died and taking everything said in the movie at face value.

As a Batman fan, I see nothing wrong with imagining for the possibility that there is more to the story than what we got in the film...especially when there are non-canon stories that take place in the Nolanverse in officially released WB material.

That is all.

 

[Ryan]

I guess I got back to "the Joker's" post and ask where's the proof that Batman was out and about? If Nolan wanted us the audience to know 2 specific ideas 1)that the police and general public haven't seen him in 8 years and 2) that he wants us to know that he was out and about for a year, a month or even a day after Dent died.....why wouldn't Nolan have included a single line from either Wayne or Alfred or...well..anyone that he was out there?
Of course I don't really believe that Nolan's Batman was out fighting Darkseid in some secret mission, but its a slipperly slope when we start putting our own wishes and dreams on what really happened. I for one would LOVE to have heard he was out and about, but I don't see it unfortunately. If we say he was out...well then...for how long....a day, a month, a year? What proof do we have to make any assertion of the timeline he was out. Maybe then he was out the entire 8 years but no one knew. If we imagine there were 'secret missions" against the Riddler...great...then we can also say Darkseid. There's a much proof that he fought the Riddler or any rogue or even a thug as much as there is that he fought Darkseid.

 

[shauner111]

Except Darkseid is a stretch as a character in that world. The only way that could happen is if it was linked to the Justice League and therefore Man Of Steel would come AFTER the trilogy. So the Riddlers, and Penguins are more logical if Bats was out there. That's where the Riddler speculation & fan-fiction comes from.

People need to understand that the Dent Act doesn't happen over night. Bruce telling Gordon "we won", is a reference to the Dent Act, not just the lie. I don't believe for a second that Batman would leave after that night, not until the Act was passed and the entire mob were thrown in the slammer. That obviously took many months to do, maybe up to a year. And I also don't think Bats would just be out there watching or sitting in Wayne Manor while Gordon's men were trying to take down the rest of the mob before a legislation was passed. Batman always works through his pain if he needs to be out there. Things weren't fixed completely the night Dent died & Joker was taken to Arkham.

If it seems like Bats vanished that night...if it seems that way to police officers, it's because they never saw him themselves and there were no CONFIRMED sightings of the Batman during the 8 years. So it's an assumption to say "well there's no proof of any appearances so yep, Batman seemed to vanish into the night to never be seen again". It's an assumption on Blake's part. Get it through your heads guys lol, it's not difficult to understand.

 

[ThePhantasm]

Nobody is even trying to argue that Batman was seen again.

Pretty sure shauner is, for one.

 

[shauner111]

I wouldn't have a problem if he didn't appear. But I believe he was out a little longer. What he did when he was out there is irrelevant at this point.

Why? Because Batman would end it completely once him and Gordon officially won. That was when the Dent Act came in and ALL of the mob were off the streets.

 

[BatLobster]

I was just going to say that I interpreted the "we won" the same way. It seems to be referring to the Dent Act. The lie was the gamble. The law being passed was the payoff/victory.

Mind you, it doesn't mean Bruce did a thing as Batman before the legislation was passed. But to me indicates that he hadn't 100% mentally decided to hang it all up until the bill was passed. "The Batman wasn't needed anymore."

It's an important distinction to make because I don't think Batman was necessarily aware that he'd be heading for a long retirement when he took the blame in TDK.

 

[ThePhantasm]

But Blake speaks of Batman vanishing, last being seen "the night of Dent's murder." I don't see how you can have it both ways. He either vanishes the night of Dent's murder or the day the Dent Act was passed.

Though the film tries to have it both ways, I guess.

 

[Travesty]

People need to understand that the Dent Act doesn't happen over night. Bruce telling Gordon "we won", is a reference to the Dent Act, not just the lie. I don't believe for a second that Batman would leave after that night, not until the Act was passed and the entire mob were thrown in the slammer. That obviously took many months to do, maybe up to a year. And I also don't think Bats would just be out there watching or sitting in Wayne Manor while Gordon's men were trying to take down the rest of the mob before a legislation was passed. Batman always works through his pain if he needs to be out there. Things weren't fixed completely the night Dent died & Joker was taken to Arkham.

The mob was already crippled, because The Joker burned all their money. That was shown to us before TDK even ended. All Gordon had to do is round them up.

And it's a bit silly to try and think about when the Dent Act could've realistically been put into place, when the Act itself is highly unrealistic. And again, who cares, cause the mob was already crippled. The Dent Act could've gone up a year later, and the mob still wouldn't have been stable.

If it seems like Bats vanished that night...if it seems that way to police officers, it's because they never saw him themselves and there were no CONFIRMED sightings of the Batman during the 8 years. So it's an assumption to say "well there's no proof of any appearances so yep, Batman seemed to vanish into the night to never be seen again". It's an assumption on Blake's part. Get it through your heads guys lol, it's not difficult to understand.

Again, if there were unconfirmed sightings, that would mean that Batman never truly vanished. Even if the sightings were true or not, it wouldn't lend itself to Batman vanishing, in fact, it would do the complete opposite of that.

Plus, you're making it out like Blake saw Batman ride out himself after the Dent fall, when he didn't, cause he was still a kid at the time. Even as a kid, Blake knew that Batman ceased to exist.