The Dark Knight Rises The TDKR General Discussion Thread - - - - - - Part 155

[I Am The Knight]

The most annoying part, apart from the idiotic justifications people make like the ones mentioned above, is some people act toward those who dislike it are either going to call you names like tiresome (you were called that today weren't you I am Knight?), or act like you don't know what you're talking about.

Yes. To be fair though, it was by someone who likes to shoot down every little negative comment made towards the things he likes

 

[The Joker]

Yes. To be fair though, it was by someone who likes to shoot down every little negative comment made towards the things he likes

Oh that's got to be Broseph44 you're talking about.

 

[The Shape]

No, because I don't think he's that sort of flashy.

And that's where the idea comes into play that this Joker really just doesn't gel with your vision or desires for the depiction of the character in live action, which is cool.

There's all different kind of styles of flashy, like there's all different kinds of crazy. It's like someone saying he's crazy so that means he'd do any crazy kind of thing and that would be in character for him just because he's nuts.

It's not really like that at all.

Everything. Every time there's a backlash against some new pic revealed, people instantly bring up Heath's like this is supposed to neutralize or diminish people's dislike of Leto's.

Otherwise why keep bringing it up all the time. I don't think it's even a great comparison because by the time we hit November 2007, before we even saw any footage of Heath in the trailer, people were for the most part won over thanks to that pic Wizard released of him, which was our first proper full body shot of him;

http://forums.superherohype.com/showthread.php?t=289997&highlight=wizard+evil

The only thing that kept raging on was the debate of whether he was permawhite or not. Christ that got old. Whereas with Leto we have had lots of pics now, including footage, and people are still polarizing on it.

The most annoying part, apart from the idiotic justifications people make like the ones mentioned above, is some people act toward those who dislike it are either going to call you names like tiresome (you were called that today weren't you I am Knight?), or act like you don't know what you're talking about.

But it's no surprise since it's the same type of crowd of fanboys who we were just previously talking about with the Batfleck suit criticisms. I wonder did anyone get any PMs about the practicality of Joker being barefoot.

Honestly, it really seems like you're pissed that so many people do like the look.

I get it, and I do feel for you because I know how much The Joker means to you. At this point, do you think it is at all possible that your vehement disdain for this Joker will subside at all in any way over the next year? Or are you at the point where even the most amazing footage and portrayal of the character in the film won't make a difference at all?

 

[The Shape]

Man I miss Heath. In such a short time he was one of the greatest acting talents I'd ever seen. Dude would have hade multiple oscars imo.

And at least one more Joker performance, for sure.

 

[The Joker]

And that's where the idea comes into play that this Joker really just doesn't gel with your vision or desires for the depiction of the character in live action, which is cool.

Which is the basis for everyone's complaint with a visual design of a character.

It's not really like that at all.

Yes, it really is. Crazy and flashy come in all different types. Because Joker is a flashy type doesn't mean he'd dressed like a Marilyn Manson pimp, any more than he would look like an ape in a straight jacket in The Batman cartoon.

Honestly, it really seems like you're pissed that so many people do like the look.

Hand on heart I couldn't care less. It hardly the first time so many people liked something I didn't. You need thicker skin than that to survive internet forums, and life in general. Others opinions are not always going to gel with your own.

The types of aforementioned idiotic justifications for said opinions, they make me face palm, but they don't piss me off either.

I get it, and I do feel for you because I know how much The Joker means to you. At this point, do you think it is at all possible that your vehement disdain for this Joker will subside at all in any way over the next year? Or are you at the point where even the most amazing footage and portrayal of the character in the film won't make a difference at all?

The truth is I am 100% on board with Leto in the role. Joker is in very very, VERY safe hands acting wise. And I am stoked he went to Morrison for tips on the character. I hope he did take some of his advice.

I'm never going to like the look. That ship has sailed. No new pic is going to change how he looks unless they do a serious design overhaul. But if Leto's acting and characterization are great, I'll be able to enjoy it.

If it was the other way around, awesome look but crappy characterization, it would be a total wash out. A great design doesn't save a terrible characterization. It's just so far we have seen or heard nothing to get excited about character wise. [BLACKOUT]Even him turning Harley crazy by lobotomizing her sounds like a lazy shortcut to twisting her mind, instead of like in 'Mad Love' where he does it all psychologically.[/BLACKOUT]

 

[Brother Jack]

The casting was certainly an eyebrow raiser. But once I saw how much he transformed in Brokeback Mountain, that changed everything for me. You look at the natural charisma he displayed in 10 Things I Hate About You, and then factor in an actor coming into his prime that was clearly hungry to do great work, and all the ingredients were right there. I could've never guessed just how special it would be though, obviously. To this day, I still cannot see Heath Ledger at all in that performance.

He had shown greatness before but he had never even gotten close to a role like the Joker before, which looking back at it now was probably the biggest question mark. His performance in Brokeback was the total opposite of Joker in a lot of ways. I had mixed feelings about the look, mainly the face paint, for quite a while but by the time the first theatrical trailer came out I was pretty much sold.

That being said, I can't imagine I'll warm up to Leto's visage. It's reminiscent of other Joker designs I do not like. Like the tattooed, pimpish variant in Miller's All Star.

 

[redfirebird2008]

Looking at the Ledger Empire pic side by side with Leto's, it's depressing to see how we've gone from an awesome looking Joker to that eyesore look Leto's sporting.

I certainly think the Ledger version looked cooler too. Ledger's Joker is arguably the best villain performance in movie history period, not just in superhero movie history. To say there are big shoes to fill is a massive understatement.

That being said, I am curious to see what Leto does with it. The good thing is there are many different versions of the Joker through the decades, so there is plenty of room for Leto to operate. Looking forward to see how it turns out.

 

[The Shape]

I certainly think the Ledger version looked cooler too. Ledger's Joker is arguably the best villain performance in movie history period, not just in superhero movie history. To say there are big shoes to fill is a massive understatement.

Definitely. And outside of Ledger himself, The Joker as a character is just simply one of (if not the) best fictional villains of all time alongside characters like Hannibal Lecter and Darth Vader.

Maybe it's just me, but at this point with new versions of these iconic characters, I don't even look at it as having "big shoes to fill" because what we're getting from Leto is a totally new version of The Joker that is not an extension of what Ledger did. He's not replacing an actor in the same film series. He's adding to The Joker's film mythology, and certainly won't be simply impersonating the actors that preceded him or trying to accomplish the same things in the role.

As we know, he isn't the first actor to step into the role and he most certainly will not be the last by any stretch.

That being said, I am curious to see what Leto does with it. The good thing is there are many different versions of the Joker through the decades, so there is plenty of room for Leto to operate. Looking forward to see how it turns out.

Same here.

 

[redfirebird2008]

He's adding to The Joker's film mythology, and certainly won't be simply impersonating the actors that preceded him or trying to accomplish the same things in the role.

I agree for the most part and definitely interested to see what Leto adds to the mythology, but I do hear some Heath influence in Leto's voice from the footage we have so far. This is a GOOD thing in my opinion because I believe Ledger had a perfect live action Joker voice. Of course Heath was influenced by Tom Waits on that Australian TV talk show along with the infamous gangster voice of James Cagney. Plus he had that high pitched creepy clown thing going too. A phenomenal performance.

The most interesting thing we've heard so far from Leto is that off-screen laugh in the trailer. It sounds like what I think of in my head for the Joker from the Arkham Asylum graphic novel. Sort of a creepy, insane old man laugh. I don't think we've ever heard a Joker laugh like this before, which makes it interesting. I am curious to see how it plays with video footage mixed with the audio.

 

[shauner111]

He looks nothing like Heath. But i find he sounds a lot like him. A little deeper, but it's there.

 

[redfirebird2008]

He looks nothing like Heath. But i find he sounds a lot like him. A little deeper, but it's there.

And I think it's a good thing. I believe you could put Heath's Joker voice with any other live action version of this character and it would work pretty well. I am very interested to see how Leto's creepy old man laugh plays out with the visuals of the character.

 

[The Joker]

I certainly think the Ledger version looked cooler too. Ledger's Joker is arguably the best villain performance in movie history period, not just in superhero movie history. To say there are big shoes to fill is a massive understatement.

Too true

That being said, I am curious to see what Leto does with it. The good thing is there are many different versions of the Joker through the decades, so there is plenty of room for Leto to operate. Looking forward to see how it turns out.

I'm not really worried about his characterization (Leto even went to Grant Morrison for Joker advice). It's him looking like a Marilyn Manson pimp who went on a shopping spree in Hot Topic that puts me off. But if his acting and characterization is good enough I'll be able to enjoy it.

 

[Deadshot]

I think that, even if they wanted him to stay a little away from the traditional look, they could have given him a more creative appearance, so he didn't look like someone that already exists and has nothing to do with the comics. It kind of sucks to look at The Joker and remember Marilyn Manson and other similar artists. You should look at the Joker and you should think about The Joker.

 

[The Joker]

Exactly. Even Grant Morrison called it a Marilyn Manson look. It's shocking how awful it is. Never thought there would be another Joker design that would rival The Batman cartoon version's in terms of ugliness.

 

[The Shape]

It kind of sucks to look at The Joker and remember Marilyn Manson and other similar artists. You should look at the Joker and you should think about The Joker.

Hey, at lot of people originally saw things like this:

...and remembered this:

....but it didn't matter in the end, did it?





*hides and takes cover for making Heath Ledger comparison*

 

[The Joker]

Yeah because that comparison wasn't valid, and faded off the more pics we saw of Heath. Total opposite with Leto. We also never had any notable Batman comic book writers make the visual analogy either.

 

[Deadshot]

Hey, at lot of people originally saw things like this:

...and remembered this:

....but it didn't matter in the end, did it?





*hides and takes cover for making Heath Ledger comparison*

First time i ever thought about that. Ledger's Joker doesn't remind me of The Crow at all.

Leto genuinely reminds me of Manson, and i guess anyone can see why. Another problem i have with Leto's Joker is the lack of iconic smile. In pretty much all comics i've read with the Joker since i was a kid there's his kind of permanent smile is the most pronounced thing about his figure. He always has that giant smile on his face. He is very expressive and his face is very interesting. If Leto closes his mouth, he is bland. There's nothing interesting about his face. It's basically a young pimp with a lot of make up. Now, you look at Ledger, and there's a lot going on with his face. The make up is way more complex, his mouth is all messed up, he really looks like a mess. What i mean is: It's interesting. It's an interesting face. Looks damaged, like in the comics. In a slightly different way, but still damaged. Leto looks like a normal guy with make up. He really does. And when he smiles...when The Joker smiles, should you be thinking about Manson and rappers? It takes a little bit of the magic away.

 

[The Shape]

Yeah because that comparison wasn't valid, and faded off the more pics we saw of Heath. Total opposite with Leto. We also never had any notable Batman comic book writers make the visual analogy either.

Wasn't valid? Lol, alright.

By the way, in regard to the Morrison quote you often bring up, do you feel that Morrison mentioned the "Marilyn Manson vibe" to be critical of the look or as a visual analogy he made himself after seeing the first images of Leto's Joker?

"It looks quite interesting. [Leto] called me to talk about his approach to the character and I steered him in a few directions. I'm keen to see if anything other than slicked back hair and the Marilyn Manson vibe made it into his performance."


Because the way I'm reading this, it actually seems like the slicked back hair and Marilyn Manson vibe might have been among the suggestions that Morrison made to Leto during their discussion. He indicates that he gave him some possible directions and that he was interested to see if anything made it into his performance other than the slicked hair and the Manson vibe -- two visual cues that were confirmed to have made it into his performance once the first pictures surfaced.

 

[The Joker]

Wasn't valid? Lol, alright.

By the way, in regard to the Morrison quote you often bring up, do you feel that Morrison mentioned the "Marilyn Manson vibe" to be critical of the look or as a visual analogy he made himself after seeing the first images of Leto's Joker?

"It looks quite interesting. [Leto] called me to talk about his approach to the character and I steered him in a few directions. I'm keen to see if anything other than slicked back hair and the Marilyn Manson vibe made it into his performance."


Because the way I'm reading this, it actually seems like the slicked back hair and Marilyn Manson vibe might have been among the suggestions that Morrison made to Leto during their discussion. He indicates that he gave him some possible directions and that he was interested to see if anything made it into his performance other than the slicked hair and the Manson vibe -- two visual cues that were confirmed to have made it into his performance once the first pictures surfaced.

If he had suggested that look he would have out right said it was his idea. That's no small thing. Morrison was gabbing about his contribution when it was just some of his Joker stories being in Heath's Joker diary;

http://splashpage.mtv.com/2008/08/0...-morrison-opens-up-heath-ledgers-joker-diary/

Had a character design he suggested made it into a major motion picture, it would be a huge thing for him that he would be singing from the rooftops.

 

[The Shape]

If he had suggested that look he would have out right said it was his idea. That's no small thing. Morrison was gabbing when it was just some of his Joker stories being in Heath's Joker diary;

http://splashpage.mtv.com/2008/08/0...-morrison-opens-up-heath-ledgers-joker-diary/

Had a character design he suggested made it into a major motion picture, it would be a huge thing for him that he would be singing from the rooftops.

Haha, it must be amazing to have such incredible insight into the mind of Grant Morrison to know exactly what he would or wouldn't explicitly say in any given situation.

Anyway, based on the way that Morrison worded himself in his response with the tid-bit of information he shared, I think one can logically make the deduction that those two things may have been (or were) among the directions that he "steered" Leto in for his performance as The Joker, which is fine. No harm, no foul either way.

 

[The Joker]

Haha, it must be amazing to have such incredible insight into the mind of Grant Morrison to know exactly what he would or wouldn't explicitly say in any given situation.

Anyway, based on the way that Morrison worded himself in his response with the tid-bit of information he shared, I think one can logically make the deduction that those two things may have been (or were) among the directions that he "steered" Leto in for his performance as The Joker, which is fine. No harm, no foul either way.

It's called logic. He speaks out proudly about something much smaller in comparison that he contributed to with a movie Joker, yet you think he would not say he was a contributor to a movie character design?

You'd have to be in severe denial to believe that

 

[redfirebird2008]

I don't remember people talking about The Crow after we started getting color pictures. There was a faded set photo that leaked and made him look like The Crow because his hair looked dark and his lips looked dark too. That was because the photography itself was rubbish and lacked proper color. This was long before we started getting official, full color pictures of him.

 

[The Shape]

It's called logic. He speaks out proudly about something much smaller in comparison that he contributed to with a movie Joker, yet you think he would not say he was a contributor to a movie character design?

You'd have to be in severe denial to believe that

It has nothing to do with denial. There's quite a difference between speaking in detail about something in retrospect (the already-released film, Heath's full performance/characterization, the posthumous revelation of the content of Heath's Joker diary) and something he knew very little about aside from a photo or two (Leto's Joker).

Also, even if he did suggest the slicked back hair and Mansion vibe to Leto among other things, I imagine he'd be humble enough to not explicitly proclaim to the world that those were his ideas long before the film is to be released. Seems he was being sly about it.

Either way, like I said, it can be inferred from his words that those two things may have been among the suggestions or ideas he gave to Leto. He didn't say, "He has slicked back hair and a Marilyn Manson vibe, so I have to wonder if any of the directions I steered him in actually made it into the performance." Instead, he said... "I steered him in a few directions. I'm keen to see if anything other than slicked back hair and the Marilyn Manson vibe made it into his performance."

No sense in splitting hairs about it, I guess, but I was just curious about your opinion on his words.

 

[redfirebird2008]

I tend to lean more towards The Shape's interpretation of the Morrison quote. If Morrison actually suggested Marilyn Manson to Leto, seems it was a bad idea. Still looking forward to the performance though. Very curious about the creepy old man laugh.

 

[The Joker]

It has nothing to do with denial. There's quite a difference between speaking in detail about something in retrospect (the already-released film, Heath's full performance/characterization, the posthumous revelation of the content of Heath's Joker diary) and something he knew very little about aside from a photo or two (Leto's Joker).

Also, even if he did suggest the slicked back hair and Mansion vibe to Leto among other things, I imagine he'd be humble enough to not explicitly proclaim to the world that those were his ideas long before the film is to be released. Seems he was being sly about it.

Either way, like I said, it can be inferred from his words that those two things may have been among the suggestions or ideas he gave to Leto. He didn't say, "He has slicked back hair and a Marilyn Manson vibe, so I have to wonder if any of the directions I steered him in actually made it into the performance." Instead, he said... "I steered him in a few directions. I'm keen to see if anything other than slicked back hair and the Marilyn Manson vibe made it into his performance."

No sense in splitting hairs about it, I guess, but I was just curious about your opinion on his words.

The only difference between the two situations is Morrison HAD to speak about it after seeing Heath's performance because it was a performance related inspiration. He saw Heath took down character traits from his Joker stories in his diary, but he couldn't say whether he used them until he saw the movie.

That's a completely different situation with Leto. We're talking about a visual look, which we have all seen already. Nobody has to wait to see the movie to know what he looks like. So why would Morrison have to wait til after the movie to say he had a direct hand in something everyone has already seen? That makes no sense. If they were keeping his look under wraps, and just teasing with hints of what it looked like, then it would make sense.

As we've already established he's far from keeping quiet about his humble contributions to Ledger's Joker, so logically he would be far more inclined to tell he had a direct hand in Leto's Joker look which is far bigger than Heath taking notes from his Joker stories.

Btw another Batman veteran, Paul Dini, spotted the Marilyn Manson similarities;

'Of Leto's take on the Joker, he added: 'He is almost like a rock star, there are elements of Marilyn Manson or like of a punk rock star.'

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbi...s-film-starring-Margot-Robbie-Jared-Leto.html

Like Morrison he's just pointing out the obvious. This isn't just a fanboy thing like the Ledger/Crow stuff. Which was the whole original point of bringing up Morrison in the first place. It isn't just fanboys on message boards saying this about Leto.