The Dark Knight Rises The TDKR General Discussion Thread - - - - - - Part 155

[Spider-Aziz]

It's very simple, Marvel believes in Cap's goofy sense of idealism. DC does not. You never see Iron Man, Marvel's Batman analogue, ever get a one up on Cap. Never.

Look at the civil war trailer, Cap is making Iron Man look like a *****. Compare that to the BvS trailers, where it's all Batman. All the internalization and motivation are from Batman's pov. We didn't get to hear Cavil speak more than one line before the latest trailer.

This is not a popularity thing. Don't forget IM 3 grossed way more than TWS. This is a character thing. Marvel respects the fact that Cap is MCU's moral center. And they will not let Iron Man outshine him despite being more popular. While in the BvS promos, the one that generates the more money, aka Batman, gets to hog the spotlight.

There is a massive difference in the way WB treats Superman and Marvel treats Cap.

They got Frank Miller as consultant for that movie, took inspirations from The Dark Knight Returns, and they made what I was afraid would happen because of such decision.

 

[BH/HHH]

They got Frank Miller as consultant for that movie, took inspirations from The Dark Knight Returns, and they made what I was afraid would happen because of such decision.

For BvS? No they didn't. Snyder simply met with Miller, he's not actually involved in any form of official capacity.

 

[Decepticonus]

Doomsday showed up in Smallville and Clark lived.
Doomsday showed up in New 52 and Clark lived.
Doomsday showed up in the DCAU and Clark lived.

I get it, the thinking because that is all Doomsday is known for - killing Superman. Aside from that he has done nothing and is not remotely interesting (in my opinion). However, we are talking about a movie that is leading to a Justice League 2 part movie and later on a Superman sequel. I guess Doomsday could kill him but Superman comes back in the movie near the end, but doubtful. Who would really write that? And that would only make the film longer. Unless they beat Doomsday but Superman dies afterwards but then again we have to resurrect him later in JL or MoS2 which just takes up time. It may even upset general audiences to kill off Superman.

 

[Decepticonus]

For BvS? No they didn't. Snyder simply met with Miller, he's not actually involved in any form of official capacity.

Yeah, Snyder flew out to speak to Miller about the film, character and story but yeah no real official consultant. If he was I think that would be blown up in the news.

 

[The Joker]

Because that's what Doomsday does. His utility as a character is to murder Clark. It would seem odd to include him and not have Superman die.

Yeah, it's like how Bane's most famous claim to fame is breaking Batman. Although Bane has done a lot of other stuff since that, but breaking the Bat is what put him on the map as a big Batman villain.

 

[shauner111]

Doomsday. What a weird and useless choice that would be if the Trinity defeat Doomsday at the end of the movie and all is well going forward. A happy team unite to serve JUSTICE. It's boring.

I bet anything that Doomsday "kills" Superman or really decimates him some other way. Wonder Woman and Batman form the Justice League. Darkseid comes in and takes Supermans body, does some weird **** to it, mind controls Supes until he somehow gets brought back to his original self.

It really is like bringing in Bane for a final act of ONE movie, only to have him not break Batmans back. It's like well...why Bane then? Same here. Maybe they're idiots and all they care about is a gigantic monster that needs to bring the Trinity together. But that's quite a desperate move on their part. Again, that's style over substance. "We need a huge destructive battle and the superheroes need to form!" Snooze. It would be much more interesting moving forward into Justice League if it ends with Supermans death. That means Doomsday/Lex meant something and affects the entire story in the future. That's the other thing. Luthor. If he's not successful with Doomsday, it's like "Well Lex was all talk throughout the entire movie. He created something but it didn't kill anything. What a horrible Lex Luthor".

 

[Tacit Ronin]

JLA being formed without Superman? No. Just no. This is worse than Cyclops' treatment in the X-men movies. Superman needs to be the one to bring them together and be their undisputed leader.

 

[shauner111]

Well you can say that it's formed because of Superman and what they did to him. Superman can still be the leader, especially towards the end of Justice League part 1 when he comes back. But he shouldn't be the one who puts the team together. That should be Wonder Woman or Batman. So why not make it both of them?

 

[Tacit Ronin]

That just perpetuates Superman's lameness and Batman's badassness. Superman should be the proactive one gathering all the metahumans of the world to form a league, Batman should be the reluctant loner who has to be convinced. Superman's ideals should defeat Batman's ahole demeanor. Not reinforce it.

 

[BatLobster]

JLA being formed without Superman? No. Just no. This is worse than Cyclops' treatment in the X-men movies. Superman needs to be the one to bring them together and be their undisputed leader.

Tbh, I'm getting the vibe that it's Wonder Woman who is really the one that brings them together. At least Batman and Superman.

Superman becoming the leader is something I could see as the overall arc of the JL movies. Tying into the "in time, you will help them accomplish wonders" theme and all.

I could honestly see a version of it playing out where the League members rally around Superman's death and it unites them. It would continue the Jesus-y angle too.

 

[shauner111]

That just perpetuates Superman's lameness and Batman's badassness. Superman should be the proactive one gathering all the metahumans of the world to form a league, Batman should be the reluctant loner who has to be convinced. Superman's ideals should defeat Batman's ahole demeanor. Not reinforce it.

Not if Superman comes back to his senses at the end of Justice League and starts destroying Darkseid and his minions. He needs to be the one who defeats Darkseid and puts Luthor in his place, eventually.

I can't stop people from thinking Supes is lame, and even Zack Snyder can't, and he's the one creating the most modern and bad-ass version of the character on screen. Most people don't care about Superman like they do Batman and i doubt that will ever change. So you just have to do what's best for the story and try to throw some curveballs at the same time, when necessary, in order to separate this DC universe from Marvels. Villains shouldn't be flavor of the week like Marvel, which is why Doomsday needs to have a better purpose than just destroying buildings at the end of Act 3.

If you say Bats should be the reluctant loner, then fine, make it Wonder Woman who comes up with the idea of a "justice league". She's been on this planet more than anyone else.

 

[shauner111]

Good call on the Jesus angle Batlobster.

 

[Tacit Ronin]

Not if Superman comes back to his senses at the end of Justice League and starts destroying Darkseid and his minions. He needs to be the one defeats Darkseid and puts Luthor in his place, eventually.

The fact that he will be sidelined for the majority of the movie just reinforces his lameness. He is not interesting. Let's sit him out of the whole movie instead of making him an active part of the film.

I can't stop people from thinking Supes is lame, and even Zack Snyder can't, and he's the one creating the most modern and bad-ass version of the character on screen. Most people don't care about Superman like they do Batman and i doubt that will ever change.

Making him mopey, broody and contemplative IS lame. He isn't Batman with a dark past. A confident and cheerful Superman is badass. People didn't care about Superman because he was barely a character in MOS.

So you just have to do what's best for the story and try to throw some curveballs at the same time, when necessary, in order to separate this DC universe from Marvels. Villains shouldn't be flavor of the week like Marvel, which is why Doomsday needs to have a better purpose than just destroying buildings at the end of Act 3.

Except it will be exactly like Marvel. Just with pretensions of seriousness. Just accept it.

If you say Bats should be the reluctant loner, then fine, make it Wonder Woman who comes up with the idea of a "justice league". She's been on this planet more than anyone else.

Fine. Make Wonder Woman come up with the plan. But Superman should be the leader.

 

[Tacit Ronin]

Tbh, I'm getting the vibe that it's Wonder Woman who is really the one that brings them together. At least Batman and Superman.

Superman becoming the leader is something I could see as the overall arc of the JL movies. Tying into the "in time, you will help them accomplish wonders" theme and all.

I could honestly see a version of it playing out where the League members rally around Superman's death and it unites them. It would continue the Jesus-y angle too.

I always took the 'in time you will accomplish wonders' line to mean that it will take some time for the world to positively change by his influence. Not that he will need to undergo a lame arc where he learns to be a leader. Superman is a natural born leader. Just like Cap.

 

[BatLobster]

I tend to agree, but the thing is MoS wasn't written with the knowledge that it was the direct lead-in to the DC Cinematic Universe. At the time Snyder assumed it was something that would happen years down the line. So I'm just making an attempt to re-contextualize that in light of what we're getting.

I agree that Supes is a natural born leader. On the flip side, I'm not convinced that Bruce's paranoia about Superman will end in BvS. I think they'll have to team up out of necessity and Bruce will realize that he's got the best of intentions, but I could still see him having a problem with Superman's authority down the line (as well as any other of the superpowered beings) and the story going in a bit of Tower of Babel direction.

So I guess what I'm saying here is if the "accomplish wonders" line refers to the world ultimately changing by his influence, then one could argue that Bruce Wayne might become symbolic for "the world" and their relationship might be indicative on of that larger theme to a degree.

In order for Superman to have any real impact he can't just be saving kittens from trees and smiling for the cameras and being nice to everyone. It's got to be something bigger, in this world that they've established. I don't know what that is exactly.

The thing is, while Cap and Superman do have a lot in common- there are some fundamental differences too. They believe in a lot of the same things, and both are probably more at home in the 1940s than they are modern day- but at the end of the day Cap is just a beefed up supersoldier with a magical shield. He's powerful, no doubt, but Superman is on a totally different, world-altering level in terms of people looking at him as a Messiah or a "false God". DC has already embraced this weightier way of framing the character, so they're kind of stuck with that for better or worse. It doesn't mean they can't characterize Superman with more humor and stuff, but no matter what it's going to have more of that baggage that comes with them really going all in on that "alien" angle.

 

[Tacit Ronin]

What I want for Bruce is to gradually stop being a petulant, paranoid adolescent after his exposure to the adult maturity of Superman and start to become the more rounded superhero he is in JLU.

In order for Superman to have any real impact he can't just be saving kittens from trees and smiling for the cameras and being nice to everyone. It's got to be something bigger, in this world that they've established. I don't know what that is exactly.

I want Superman's presence to dramatically fast track Earth's evolution of technology. Just like All Star Superman. I want to see Superman aiding in space odysseys. Gathering samples from the sun.

 

[shauner111]

I never said Superman will sit out the whole movie. I am of the belief that Batfleck's nightmare was a premonition. Superman will be mind controlled by Darkseid, Justice League will take place in a post-apocalyptic world much like Mad Max, and those flying creatures are indeed parademons.

I can't accept that it will be just like Marvel, because i haven't seen the movies yet. It could go either way.

 

[Decepticonus]

In the end I could so careless that Doomsday does NOT kill Superman. I get it - that's what he's known for and the Bane comparison, doing this would be a waste of Doomsday. But I'm sorry it's Doomsday he has never been interesting, at least Bane is.

 

[BH/HHH]

Doomsday was never meant to be more than a one shot villain, they just happened to think him up right around the time they also came up with killing Superman. Doomsday will always be a villain that works as a plot device, in the Death of Superman he was the plot device they used to kill Superman in BvS he'e the plot device they use to form the Justice League. Superman doesn't have to die for him to be relevant, the relevance in BvS is he's the obstacle that takes all three heroes to defeat and I'm sure it will work exactly the same.

Also before anyone says Superman dealt with him on his own in the Death of Superman he didn't, Doomsday completely decimated the JLA before he and Superman both fell at each others feet.

 

[shauner111]

[YT]?v=zkNDVV2RpQg[/YT]

 

[BatLobster]

I don't really have any particular attachment to Doomsday as a villain, so I don't mind him being a one-off for this movie. There are bigger threats to come like Darkseid or maybe Braniac.

At the same time, his inclusion in the movie and him being a 3rd act device to get Batman and Superman to team up doesn't excite me in and of itself. The conflict between them is still the most interesting part of the movie to me, so I really hope there's a meaningful resolution and not just a stalemate leading into a, "welp there's a giant alien monster tearing down buildings now, guess we better put differences aside".

 

[shauner111]

BATMAN VS. SUPERMAN'S PATRICK TATOPOULOS OFFERS DOOMSDAY DETAILS

Zack Snyder and WB recently released the second trailer for Batman Vs. Superman which saw Zod turned into - something - at the end of the trailer.

Now it appears to be confirmed as some version of Doomsday.

The French magazine Premiere caught up with Batman Vs. Superman production designer Patrick Tatopoulos who offered the following details about Superman, Zod, Doomsday and Lex luthor.

"We are able to tell a story in a fresh way. Doomsday is an evolution essentially. Fans may be aware of the death of Superman story, but this is handled in such a new way."

Regarding if Superman's dies in the film, on Lex's plan, and more on Doomsday:

"When the film is called Batman v or versus Superman, it really has a lot of levels to the meaning. Superman isn't just killed off at the end of something. We see how he evolves as part of Lex's plan to protect the world. Seeing the Superman we know, be gone, and then replaced with this reproduction is really going to make fans think of how we look at these super beings. It was especially interesting to figure out, how would you create Superman from Zod... then how would that involve into Doomsday."

The article also notes that many fans complained that the trailer revealed too much; however, it's noted there is a "larger threat" at play. It's also said the "timeframe of how things fall into place will surprise fans" and that "Doomsday isn't just the final act."

It's further said "those feeling they may know too much this early, are going to be in for a true surprise."

Regarding further threats in addition to Lex and Doomsday, Patrick Tatopoulos wouldn't offer much:

"That's something to find out on March 25th."

This actually gets me a little bit excited. Not saying my worries about Luthor or Doomsday are gone, because that will be there until the film is out. But maybe, just maybe, there's more for Act 3.

 

[Spider-Aziz]

For BvS? No they didn't. Snyder simply met with Miller, he's not actually involved in any form of official capacity.

Hmmm, I recall something about Snyder asking him for advice.

 

[Decepticonus]

Hmmm, I recall something about Snyder asking him for advice.

A meeting, one meeting right before shooting. He's not on the set or contracted by WB so he is not a consultant.

 

[Brother Jack]

I don't really have any particular attachment to Doomsday as a villain, so I don't mind him being a one-off for this movie. There are bigger threats to come like Darkseid or maybe Braniac.

At the same time, his inclusion in the movie and him being a 3rd act device to get Batman and Superman to team up doesn't excite me in and of itself. The conflict between them is still the most interesting part of the movie to me, so I really hope there's a meaningful resolution and not just a stalemate leading into a, "welp there's a giant alien monster tearing down buildings now, guess we better put differences aside".

I just think it's too soon. Leaving Doomsday and the formation of the League for another movie would allow this story more room to breathe and develop Superman and Batman as ideological opponents but, ultimately, heroic allies. Then Wonder Woman could be the mediator between them and catalyst for their truce. And yeah we're already getting this in the movie as is but I doubt it will be given enough development. It feels like Wonder Woman will be particularly short-changed, ala Black Widow in Iron Man 2.