The Dark Knight Rises The TDKR General Discussion Thread - - - - - - - Part 156

[The Batman]

I mean, Nolan has said that he was inspired by Donner's approach to Superman. Anyone who knew that and watched Donner's Superman knows that Nolan never intended for his Batman films to be uber realistic. I'm not sure Nolan deserves even part of the blame for how people chose to interpret the tone of his Batfilms.

Also, this whole "I saw this new Batfilm, and now the old ones seem cartoony" thing is a good example of "Shiny new Toy" syndrome.

 

[shauner111]

The Donner influence was about casting and simply giving Batman a proper origin.

And yet I can still do a TDK/Batman 89 double feature and say “wow, that second movie is a bit childish by comparison!”. Shiny new toy? Not at this stage. It’s been 12 years and I still feel the same. How about a TDK/Joker double feature? There are scenes in TDK that are earnest. You can take them seriously. But just like watching Dark Knight after Taxi Driver, there is a difference. The movies evolve. Sorry but Joker is just darker and more realistic. You can argue that this was the intention of the filmmakers. But my point is that Nolan plays a lot of scenes straight, when the end result is not as serious as he thinks imo.

I’m sure the Gotham City in Joker or The Dark Knight Rises will look bland compared to Reeves’ Batman. And TDK Trilogy as a whole may seem so much more bombastic and action heavy compared to the new stuff too.

 

[BatLobster]

Yes of course. I’ll always love all three movies. But i’ve ALWAYS said the movies weren’t flawless.

Hey, looks like a lot of the old gang is back talking some Batman! Fun times.

But yeah for me the Joker comparison is somewhat apples and oranges, aside from the fact that they share a character/source material. One is an R-rated drama that is straight up going for the Taxi Driver thing (almost to fault, imo). The other is an action-thriller-blockbuster that's meant to be more bombastic in a heightened reality. It's sort of like comparing Taxi Driver to Die Hard to me. I mean Begins introduces ninjas like 5 minutes into the movie, lol. The secret sauce to the Nolan Batman trilogy is getting you to invest seriously in Bruce Wayne's journey/psychology, despite the heightened genre tropes that come with it. You believed Keaton's Bruce Wayne would be disturbed enough to put on a Bat-suit. But with Bale in Begins, it was the first time a movie attempted to depict the transformation that would lead someone to make such a severe choice, and then through the trilogy- the consequences that would arise from that.

Anyway, it just brings me back to the thing that I love about Batman and his world. There's so many ways you can interpret it and different tones you can bring to it and I think that's what helps keep it the most fresh and interesting superhero property at its best. I definitely get the vibe that Reeves is going to cook up something special by going all-in on the detective noir side of it, and for the first time in a long time I'm excited about the future of the franchise again.

 

[shauner111]

Yup and I agree with everything you said. I just think the comparisons are obvious, and so the ‘shiny new toy’ line is like telling me the comparisons are b.s. It’s fairly obvious when you watch the movies back to back. One is not better than the other just because you can “take it more seriously” either.

 

[The Batman]

The Donner influence was about casting and simply giving Batman a proper origin.

...And taking Batman and putting him in a world that resembled our own.

Christopher Nolan on how Christopher Reeve’s ‘Superman’ influenced ‘Batman Begins’

The man says as much in the link above. Again, this stuff is pretty clear if you read past Nolan interviews and watched Donner Superman. Donners influence was more than just casting or having an origin story.

 

[Kane52630]

Christopher Nolan Used Superman: The Movie To Help Him Make Batman Begins His Way

The director wanted to give Batman Begins the weight of “event cinema” so that it wouldn’t be dismissed like many superhero movies had before, and while ultimately Bruce Wayne would have to put on the Batsuit, Nolan successfully used Superman: The Movie to back up his choice to have it happen later. If it worked for Christopher Reeve’s Man of Steel, it would work for Christian Bale’s iteration of the Dark Knight.

 

[Awest66]

I honestly feel that Fans made these movies feel more restrictive than they ever actually were.

 

[Herofan]

One of my favorite scenes in BB is Batman being put on fire & thrown out and then returning to confront Scarecrow, not really realistic if you think about it but both more intense and feeling-realistic-enough than most previous Batman films or action films in general.

 

[shauner111]

Love that scene. It’s not that unrealistic. I bought that it could happen, with the armor he has on. With Begins it’s mainly the third act where it becomes something else.

 

[Schlosser85]

I think people make Nolan out to be more obsessed with realism than he actually was.

 

[Schlosser85]

One of my favorite scenes in BB is Batman being put on fire & thrown out and then returning to confront Scarecrow, not really realistic if you think about it but both more intense and feeling-realistic-enough than most previous Batman films or action films in general.

What's not realistic about it?

 

[shauner111]

I think people make Nolan out to be more obsessed with realism than he actually was.

That’s Nolan’s fault though. He used to talk about realism every time somebody asked him about his Batman movies. Even when you watch the doc about the whole trilogy. He just worded it the wrong way maybe, because it was only later when he did an interview and had to correct himself (saying it wasn’t so much about REALITY but believability). I don’t blame fans for running with it because he would use the words “grounded in reality” so much.

But let’s be honest, Nolan is inspired by more action movies than anything else really. He has many influences, but it’s the largest blockbusters that he references the most in his work.

 

[The Joker]

That’s Nolan’s fault though.

No its not. Using a more grounded approach does not equate to realism. Its just less fantastical than the more common CBMs. Some people just foolishly take one extreme or the other. In their minds its either realistic or fantastical.

 

[shauner111]

Then why say things like “I wanted to make sure BLANK was grounded in a reality”, or “we had to figure out who BLANK would be in our real world”. Yes, fandom exaggerates everything but the seed was planted with Nolan trying to sell his trilogy as a real world Batman. Alls I’m saying is, he sometimes contradicts what he set out to do. You don’t have to agree with me. That’s ok.

 

[Dede]

What do you guys think is the most criticized Performance of the trilogy between Marion as Talia or Katie Holmes as Rachel Dawes?

 

[shauner111]

Marion for sure.

 

[Dede]

Marion for sure.

I feel like I here more about Rachel Dawes hurting begins . While people mostly harp on marions death specifically. Katie also got a razzie nom but I don’t think that’s worth a lot

 

[Schlosser85]

Marion gets unfairly maligned for a two second shot, and some people acted like she was a bad actress based solely on that, as if it's the only thing she's ever done.

Re: Rachel, Gyllenhaal is worse than Holmes.

 

[Gothamsknight]

No its not. Using a more grounded approach does not equate to realism. Its just less fantastical than the more common CBMs. Some people just foolishly take one extreme or the other. In their minds its either realistic or fantastical.

Exactly. I get that Nolans world was "ralistic" in a sense, but its still a world where a guy dresses up as a Bat and fights crime. it was just very grounded, and felt less "fantasy" like than what you see everywhere today, while still maintaining the core elements.. And honestly, I loved that so much about it.

 

[flickchick85]

Marion was good in all but one damn scene/shot.

 

[Schlosser85]

Marion was good in all but one damn scene/shot.

Yup, and there were literally people saying she needs to stay away from movies for a long time. Because of one two second bad take. Not like she's an Oscar-winning internationally renowned actress or anything

 

[Travesty]

Bale's Bat-voice in TDK/R is worse than Marion's terrible death scene, and Gyllenahall was worse than Holmes.

 

[Kane52630]

I didn't hate Katie's performance in BB, but it was clear she was the odd one out in that cast.

As for Marion, I love her as an actress, but I don't think she was given much to do in the movie. But then again I don't think TDKR was all that great to begin with. Every time I rewatch it, it gets worse and worse.

 

[The Joker]

What do you guys think is the most criticized Performance of the trilogy between Marion as Talia or Katie Holmes as Rachel Dawes?

Its easily Katie, even though she wasn't that bad, her performance is the one that is often labelled poor, when her acting was perfectly adequate. She just was surrounded by acting giants, and came off as the lackluster performance. Contrast to Marion who just gets flak for her death scene. In the rest of the movie she's solid. Fanboys like to blow things out of proportion and make out as though one bad scene makes the entire performance poor.

Katie's Razzie nomination for Rachel didn't help. But then who actually takes the Razzies seriously. I mean Danny DeVito got a nomination for playing the Penguin in Batman Returns.

 

[Brother Jack]

I'm pro Gyllenhaal, as far as the two Rachels go. Though in a perfect world, Amy Adams would've been cast after doing the screentest with Bale when he was auditioning.