TMOS Reviews Thread - Non Spoiler Review and Discussion - Part 7

[JAK®]

I think there are 2 camps for movie-goers.. one wants that overly complicated plot.. and another just want a simple, but highly enjoyable movie with a lot of heart and characters you can connect with..

There is some truth to this. A lot of people don't really understand character development. They think it means having characters talk to each other. That's only one side to it. It can also be developed through their actions and the decisions they make, and how that changes throughout the film.

This is why there are still people going around saying how The Avengers was no better than Transformers just because they had a similar amount of action scenes. It shows a real lack of experience with film analysis. They miss completely how the film focuses on each character's contribution to the fight and how it differs from the way they interacted with each other earlier.

These same people will praise Christopher Nolan's Batman films for their intelligence, when their plots are full of holes and characters act to serve the plot instead of the plot serving them. The themes of the films are explained by the characters through monologues and they don't develop organically. The point of the film is spoon-fed to them and it makes them feel intelligent when they aren't actually doing any analysis of their own.

However, Nolan's themes are usually quite deep, well thought-out and internally consistent, so the films are still very good because the story is still effectively told.

Compare and contrast to Snyder, who is still finding his way as a director, and is almost the exact opposite to Nolan. He believes in showing the audience what is happening rather than telling, making them feel the moment rather than being presented clinically. To someone expecting to be told how the characters develop, they will mistakenly believe that the development is absent. That there is no plot because it isn't been explained through exposition. They think that action is just pretty pictures and not the characters expressing themselves in a way that isn't dialogue.

That said, Snyder still needs to learn how to pace his films. He needs to dial back the power of some scenes to allow others to shine.

It doesn't surprise me that people are complaining how characters say one thing but do another. It just indicates their level of critical analysis. They're used to the Nolan method of telling them what to think.

 

[TheFuture]

I saw it this morning. I found it good but not great and I had one dominating thought leaving the cinema: Snyder and Goyer do not compliment each other and one of them has to go.

I mean for example, I felt that Cavill did a fine job, but there were some very ropey moments that I wouldn't blame him on.

 

[Senator Pleasury]

Haven't seen the director's cut. Point is that Watchmen simply wasn't a movie that put action over story, whether you liked it or not.

I loved Superman Returns and it didn't have lots of action, so that's not an issue.

No they won't. Most people are too lazy to like a movie like that.

What do you mean? You have to make an effort to like it? Now you mention, I certainly thought that was kind of necessary myself.

 

[robot]

They didn't work hard, that's the point. Most were lazy because of the assumption that since they were superheroes loads of ACTION ACTION ACTION was expected and they'd just be entertained in the popcorn sense. Once that preconceived notion is inside their head, it's like there's no going back.

I don't think 'action, action, action' is all the audience looks for... otherwise, so many people won't hate MOS that much because let's face it, as far as action goes, i think it's defined it...

People are looking to feel good, to be entertained, to 'feel something about the characters on screen'... and that's more important than action... even action has to have purpose, like in how they build up each battle scene in LOTR... if it's just a few guys going at it for an hour, that's just going to get old and boring...

So, the art of movie making is not that simple... you need a director who understand's the audience's needs... and be able to tell a story right...

The Snyder / Goyer / Nolan didn't have that magic... Snyder is great for what he's good at, visuals.. but he can't tell a good story by himself.. if you give him a good handler, a good screen writer / writer... he'll excel...

 

[robot]

There is some truth to this. A lot of people don't really understand character development. They think it means having characters talk to each other. That's only one side to it. It can also be developed through their actions and the decisions they make, and how that changes throughout the film.

This is why there are still people going around saying how The Avengers was no better than Transformers just because they had a similar amount of action scenes. It shows a real lack of experience with film analysis. They miss completely how the film focuses on each character's contribution to the fight and how it differs from the way they interacted with each other earlier.

These same people will praise Christopher Nolan's Batman films for their intelligence, when their plots are full of holes and characters act to serve the plot instead of the plot serving them. The themes of the films are explained by the characters through monologues and they don't develop organically. The point of the film is spoon-fed to them and it makes them feel intelligent when they aren't actually doing any analysis of their own.

However, Nolan's themes are usually quite deep, well thought-out and internally consistent, so the films are still very good because the story is still effectively told.

Compare and contrast to Snyder, who is still finding his way as a director, and is almost the exact opposite to Nolan. He believes in showing the audience what is happening rather than telling, making them feel the moment rather than being presented clinically. To someone expecting to be told how the characters develop, they will mistakenly believe that the development is absent. That there is no plot because it isn't been explained through exposition. They think that action is just pretty pictures and not the characters expressing themselves in a way that isn't dialogue.

That said, Snyder still needs to learn how to pace his films. He needs to dial back the power of some scenes to allow others to shine.

It doesn't surprise me that people are complaining how characters say one thing but do another. It just indicates their level of critical analysis. They're used to the Nolan method of telling them what to think.

You must be psychic.. you totally read my mind... i couldn't have said it better!!!!! t:t:t:t:t:

Here's another example: In avatar, Neytiri at first hated the humans, including Jake, and the brilliance of how Cameron made their love develop over time.. scenes like when she first met Jake, she almost shot him.. all without any 'talking'.. but you felt it... and her reluctance towards him, and his childishness and innocense won her over... all the small little things adds to each character... the way he runs thru the forest, the way he smacks the 'soul seeds', etc.. each scene needs to be properly told and developed, each adding to the entirety of the story...

 

[Longshot777]

Cameraman shaking the camera was the worst!!!

I still don't get. Is that some new innovated way in directing by Snyder??

Nolan's Batman kills this!! Nolan should've directed this film.

Snyder did better directing with Watchmen.

 

[robot]

Cameraman shaking the camera was the worst!!!

I still don't get. Is that some new innovated way in directing by Snyder??

Nolan's Batman kills this!! Nolan should've directed this film.

Snyder did better directing with Watchmen.

Snyder likes to experiment with new things...

One day, he'll realize what works and what doesn't and becomes a truly great director...

 

[mayo23]

There is some truth to this. A lot of people don't really understand character development. They think it means having characters talk to each other. That's only one side to it. It can also be developed through their actions and the decisions they make, and how that changes throughout the film.

This is why there are still people going around saying how The Avengers was no better than Transformers just because they had a similar amount of action scenes. It shows a real lack of experience with film analysis. They miss completely how the film focuses on each character's contribution to the fight and how it differs from the way they interacted with each other earlier.

These same people will praise Christopher Nolan's Batman films for their intelligence, when their plots are full of holes and characters act to serve the plot instead of the plot serving them. The themes of the films are explained by the characters through monologues and they don't develop organically. The point of the film is spoon-fed to them and it makes them feel intelligent when they aren't actually doing any analysis of their own.

However, Nolan's themes are usually quite deep, well thought-out and internally consistent, so the films are still very good because the story is still effectively told.

Compare and contrast to Snyder, who is still finding his way as a director, and is almost the exact opposite to Nolan. He believes in showing the audience what is happening rather than telling, making them feel the moment rather than being presented clinically. To someone expecting to be told how the characters develop, they will mistakenly believe that the development is absent. That there is no plot because it isn't been explained through exposition. They think that action is just pretty pictures and not the characters expressing themselves in a way that isn't dialogue.

That said, Snyder still needs to learn how to pace his films. He needs to dial back the power of some scenes to allow others to shine.

It doesn't surprise me that people are complaining how characters say one thing but do another. It just indicates their level of critical analysis. They're used to the Nolan method of telling them what to think.

It's funny you say this because quite a few reviews are saying the "Nolan/Goyer monologue" exposition is still present in MoS. I haven't seen the movie yet, but as a person who very much dislikes Nolan's style of story telling, I hope you're right.

 

[Rock Sexton]

I don't think 'action, action, action' is all the audience looks for... otherwise, so many people won't hate MOS that much because let's face it, as far as action goes, i think it's defined it...

People are looking to feel good, to be entertained, to 'feel something about the characters on screen'... and that's more important than action... even action has to have purpose, like in how they build up each battle scene in LOTR... if it's just a few guys going at it for an hour, that's just going to get old and boring...

So, the art of movie making is not that simple... you need a director who understand's the audience's needs... and be able to tell a story right...

The Snyder / Goyer / Nolan didn't have that magic... Snyder is great for what he's good at, visuals.. but he can't tell a good story by himself.. if you give him a good handler, a good screen writer / writer... he'll excel...

I'll sum it up like this ...... when a brooding, miserable sociopath like Rorshach begs for Ozymandias to end him and I'm sitting there internally yelling "Nooooooooooooooooo!" that's how I know Snyder did a great job. That scene was just pure bliss for me from an emotional connectivity standpoint.

Watchmen was never meant to be a "feel good movie" about puppy dogs and standard happiness archetypes. It was a movie about superheroes with problems and the collateral damage of their actions on the rest of the world ..... which is kind of ironic since there's an argument going on here in the MoS section over how the destruction to the city and death of so many people were glossed over .... and that the real Superman would've never let that happen.

 

[The Sage]

I saw it this morning. I found it good but not great and I had one dominating thought leaving the cinema: Snyder and Goyer do not compliment each other and one of them has to go.

I mean for example, I felt that Cavill did a fine job, but there were some very ropey moments that I wouldn't blame him on.

I think Snyder was the right director. I don't think Goyer was the right writer, but he's a good ideas man. He needs another hand to help him out. He needs to do the ideas and let someone else write the script.

And Snyder needs to get better at telling his stories within his time constraints. I wonder what was cut that would've enhanced the story, or even fix a few of the problems.

 

[Rock Sexton]

There is some truth to this. A lot of people don't really understand character development. They think it means having characters talk to each other. That's only one side to it. It can also be developed through their actions and the decisions they make, and how that changes throughout the film.

This is why there are still people going around saying how The Avengers was no better than Transformers just because they had a similar amount of action scenes. It shows a real lack of experience with film analysis. They miss completely how the film focuses on each character's contribution to the fight and how it differs from the way they interacted with each other earlier.

These same people will praise Christopher Nolan's Batman films for their intelligence, when their plots are full of holes and characters act to serve the plot instead of the plot serving them. The themes of the films are explained by the characters through monologues and they don't develop organically. The point of the film is spoon-fed to them and it makes them feel intelligent when they aren't actually doing any analysis of their own.

However, Nolan's themes are usually quite deep, well thought-out and internally consistent, so the films are still very good because the story is still effectively told.

Compare and contrast to Snyder, who is still finding his way as a director, and is almost the exact opposite to Nolan. He believes in showing the audience what is happening rather than telling, making them feel the moment rather than being presented clinically. To someone expecting to be told how the characters develop, they will mistakenly believe that the development is absent. That there is no plot because it isn't been explained through exposition. They think that action is just pretty pictures and not the characters expressing themselves in a way that isn't dialogue.

That said, Snyder still needs to learn how to pace his films. He needs to dial back the power of some scenes to allow others to shine.

It doesn't surprise me that people are complaining how characters say one thing but do another. It just indicates their level of critical analysis. They're used to the Nolan method of telling them what to think.

Very well said.

Reminds of that scene in TDK where Alfred resorts to "explaining" The Joker's motivations to Bruce Wayne. It's just lazy to me. I don't want to be told. I want to be able to piece it together.

 

[TheFuture]

I think Snyder was the right director. I don't think Goyer was the right writer, but he's a good ideas man. He needs another hand to help him out. He needs to do the ideas and let someone else write the script.

And Snyder needs to get better at telling his stories within his time constraints. I wonder what was cut that would've enhanced the story, or even fix a few of the problems.

Oh I'll give Goyer his props, there were some moments of genius in there. I mean I loved

Spoiler

Pa Kent's final moment and I generally digged all of the flashbacks

But as you said, the man just needs a guiding hand. I really think Snyder was too passive in this regard.

 

[JAK®]

Interesting how people are very reluctant to talk about Nolan's involvement now.

 

[The Sage]

Oh I'll give Goyer his props, there were some moments of genius in there. I mean I loved

Spoiler

Pa Kent's final moment and I generally digged all of the flashbacks

But as you said, the man just needs a guiding hand. I really think Snyder was too passive in this regard.

Goyer definitely deserves his props. But history has shown it's better when he's giving ideas and letting someone else do the script.

You're probably right about Snyder, and they definitely need someone else in the writer's room the next time. Snyder's a capable director and can deliver with a solid script. Goyer's a great ideas person and has knowledge on the comics. Scripting is their weakness. Who would be the right person to put in there with them? I don't know.

 

[TheFuture]

Interesting how people are very reluctant to talk about Nolan's involvement now.

What is there to be talked about? The only criticism I'd give him is that given his own personal investment, he probably should have been more hands on. I mean for example.....

Goyer definitely deserves his props. But history has shown it's better when he's giving ideas and letting someone else do the script.

You're probably right about Snyder, and they definitely need someone else in the writer's room the next time. Snyder's a capable director and can deliver with a solid script. Goyer's a great ideas person and has knowledge on the comics. Scripting is their weakness. Who would be the right person to put in there with them? I don't know.

Nolan should be more hands on with the script next time around.

 

[The Sage]

Interesting how people are very reluctant to talk about Nolan's involvement now.

Funny enough, the way it was paced felt Nolan-esque.

What is there to be talked about? The only criticism I'd give him is that given his own personal investment, he probably should have been more hands on. I mean for example.....


Nolan should be more hands on with the script next time around.

If a Nolan needs to involved with the script, I'd rather it be Jonah than Chris.

But I honestly am hoping they bring great non-Nolan writer. I'd like some variety with Superman and future DC heroes.

 

[RedIsNotBlue]

I am still not even sure how far Nolan's involvement went with this film. Didn't he basically give them an outline of how he thought the film should be made then everyone else pretty much filled in the blanks?

 

[JAK®]

I am still not even sure how far Nolan's involvement went with this film. Didn't he basically give them an outline of how he thought the film should be made then everyone else pretty much filled in the blanks?

Goyer had an idea for a Superman script. He showed it to Nolan. Nolan liked it and helped get it made. Zack Snyder was hired to direct and Nolan pretty much stepped back and let the rest happen.

 

[TheFuture]

I thought Goyer pitched the general outline of the film to Nolan while they were working on TDKR? I remember reading that in an interview, it might have been Nolan who said it.

 

[Senator Pleasury]

Interesting how people are very reluctant to talk about Nolan's involvement now.

Did he direct? I'll blame him as a director.
Did he write? I'll blame him as a writer.

 

[JAK®]

Did he direct? I'll blame him as a director.
Did he write? I'll blame him as a writer.

The point is only a few weeks ago people were talking about how good the film looked and how that was Nolan's influence.

It was a very common opinion that Nolan was overseeing the production and Snyder was acting as a pawn.

 

[protoctista]

For me this is a solid 10/10 film, the first film I'd give that rating since Looper.

Astounded that geeks / fans here are nonplussed.

 

[TheFuture]

The point is only a few weeks ago people were talking about how good the film looked and how that was Nolan's influence.

It was a very common opinion that Nolan was overseeing the production and Snyder was acting as a pawn.

I don't remember anyone claiming such a thing. From the trailers, it did seem like a Nolan-ish story but in terms of how it looked, it very much looked like a Snyder film to me.

 

[TheSpartanX54]

Saw it yesterday. Really good. Best CBM of 2013.

Long review later.

 

[Autonet]

I think there are 2 camps for movie-goers.. one wants that overly complicated plot.. and another just want a simple, but highly enjoyable movie with a lot of heart and characters you can connect with..

Damn, that's one backhanded sentence.