The Dark Knight Rises You Have My Permission To Lounge - Part 3

[Spider-Aziz]

Wait, does that mean members of Queen are gone too?

 

[Shikamaru]

I just realized that Snyder is essentially the evil Whedon. I mean, here's some similarities...

1. Both have stated to prefer angsty characters. However, Whedon stays away from doing characters like Superman for that reason (he knows people will get upset).

2. Both have a reputation for being "comic book guys" in the industry, but Whedon himself never used that as an excuse for his films. In fact, Whedon's come out and apologized for the flaws in Age of Ultron and admitted it could've been better (and AoU is nowhere near BvS' reception).

3. Both have strong Leftist and Rightist leanings, but Whedon's Socialism doesn't inform any of the characters in the Avengers films. Meanwhile, Snyder thought it would be "cool" if Batman reads Atlas Shrugged.

 

[The Joker]

I just realized that Snyder is essentially the evil Whedon. I mean, here's some similarities...

1. Both have stated to prefer angsty characters. However, Whedon stays away from doing characters like Superman for that reason (he knows people will get upset).

2. Both have a reputation for being "comic book guys" in the industry, but Whedon himself never used that as an excuse for his films. In fact, Whedon's come out and apologized for the flaws in Age of Ultron and admitted it could've been better (and AoU is nowhere near BvS' reception).

3. Both have strong Leftist and Rightist leanings, but Whedon's Socialism doesn't inform any of the characters in the Avengers films. Meanwhile, Snyder thought it would be "cool" if Batman reads Atlas Shrugged.

Very good observations

 

[Tacit Ronin]

Snyder isn't really a comic book guy. He's probably read three comic books: 300, Watchmen and TDKR. I'm not sure he even read TDKR. From the way he massively misinterprets it, more like skimmed it.

Whedon is an actual comic book dork. He's even written some. Most notably Astonishing X-men 1-24, considered one of the best X-men runs ever.

 

[Shikamaru]

Hence why I said they have a 'reputation' for being "comic book guys".

 

[Tacit Ronin]

Have you dudes seen the 4chan rumors about Justice League's plot and their position on Zack, and Terrio?


Concerning the latter:

We like zach. the bvs project would have killed a lesser filmmaker. terrio was supposed to make sure the story worked (obviously) and affleck is there because we want him to make a batman. chris was supposed to be the "leash" and he failed. we have advisers from comics like johns to help zach but since he did all the legwork to make the dceu himself he gets to run it. suicide squad is proof that he's on the right track as far as running the show. the main issue with justice league 1 is taking this state of the universe we kind of forced him into and turning it into something that will appeal to people without betraying the artifice of it. as i said, people will still probably dislike it because of the decisions we made leading up to it, but by the end of the movie you will have had a fun time (not in an avengers way, by the way- more like how the dark knight was involving and thrilling) and will see the clear direction we are going

Assuming this is true, looks like 'Oscar Winner' Terrio was responsible for the crappy script.

He assumes that people will still probably dislike it, that's a massive red flag.

JLA "involving" and 'thrilling' like TDK? That's what they said the last two times.


The JL plot; beware spoilers:

Spoiler

Batman is trying to assemble the Justice League to protect the Earth from Darkseid, while the government, represented by Amanda Waller and Wade Eiling, is trying to capture them.

Darkseid is a "force of nature", and is impending arrival is described as "apocalyptic" with biblical undertones. He's also being redesigned, though they'll try to keep his classic look in mind.

Superman's rebirth is somehow connected to Darkseid, and includes Darkseid attempting to corrupt him in some sort of astral plane. Lois will be important to this subplot.

Darkseid will have some sort of ability to force the League members to handle their own dark sides and go through psychological trials. It appears to be capacity for good remains a theme of the movie, with the League members all being shown to be dysfunctional, angry people that could have tipped over to the dark side easily if circumstances were a little different.

The focus is on the six mains and Lois. Everyone else is just minor.

My thoughts:

Spoiler

More terrible religious metaphors.

I won't put it past Snyder to turn Superman evil.

As expected, all the heroes will be angry and depressed. Yes, he implies they will be good at the end, but never disregard Snyder's capacity to botch it.

 

[Shikamaru]

The problems can't be due to Terrio since most of what's wrong with BvS is just your classic Snyder problems.

Also, based on the way a lot of these diehard Snyder fanboys sound and operate, I doubt a good portion of them are really over the age of 18. That's not something I usually like to say and it's why I avoided saying it till now, but I think it's more and more applicable in this case. They'll (hopefully) outgrow their mindset in the coming years.

 

[Tacit Ronin]

A lot of them also don't know what a director has the capacity and the right to do. They ignorantly think Snyder comes up with the shots, that's literally it. They think Snyder is Larry Fong.

No wonder these guys still defend Snyder, if you think all a director does is make pretty pictures, of course Snyder would seem like a god to you.

But the reality is that a director also directs his/her actors, and looking at Cavil and Eisenberg, Snyder's failed massively at that. A director controls tone and pacing; a look at Zack Snyder's filmography would tell you that this is his biggest problem. Unless he is just for a hire -- and this is important, as this is the biggest thing Snyder fanboys don't get, or don't want to get -- a director shapes the content of a script. He didn't come in late in the game this time like he did for MOS, he shaped the BvS story since its very inception. He is just as much to blame as Terrio and Goyer for it. Furthermore, a good director can rise above the script. If a scene or scenes are poorly written, thematically muddled, or off character, a director can demand rewrites to amend those problems. Or he can just improvise without the use of a script and come up with a different scene altogether.

Unless he has been hired to be an yes men, director aren't slaves to a script. Jon Favs is a great example. Iron Man didn't even have a script. He and his cast basically improvised all the great scenes in the film. Now that is good directing.

 

[shauner111]

If you're going to make Superman this Jesus figure, then i'm good with using Darkseid as a Satanic figure with that kind of power. But i can see them shoving it down our throats instead of being a little bit subtle with it. That's not what i'm concerned with.

I'm annoyed by the fact that Darkseid will be making each hero explore their dark side. Not because it's a bad idea. But because Terrio/Snyder will most likely use this as a way to get more brutal, dark, aggressive with each hero and they don't seem to have a filter. Superman will probably be an angry piece of s**t, controlled by Darkseid throughout most of the movie. Batman will probably get angrier. Wonder Woman too? Im just not interested in seeing that. At least not how i think it's going to be done.

I don't believe that report is true, but if it is, it's not that surprising.

Of course they'll be good at the end, but it means we have to sit through over 2 hours of boring, angry, illogical behavior before we get there. The only thing that will save it is great casting from Darkseid, so we can be entertained by him at least.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

A lot of them also don't know what a director has the capacity and the right to do. They ignorantly think Snyder comes up with the shots, that's literally it. They think Snyder is Larry Fong.

No wonder these guys still defend Snyder, if you think all a director does is make pretty pictures, of course Snyder would seem like a god to you.

But the reality is that a director also directs his/her actors, and looking at Cavil and Eisenberg, Snyder's failed massively at that. A director controls tone and pacing; a look at Zack Snyder's filmography would tell you that this is his biggest problem. Unless he is just for a hire -- and this is important, as this is the biggest thing Snyder fanboys don't get, or don't want to get -- a director shapes the content of a script. He didn't come in late in the game this time like he did for MOS, he shaped the BvS story since its very inception. He is just as much to blame as Terrio and Goyer for it. Furthermore, a good director can rise above the script. If a scene or scenes are poorly written, thematically muddled, or off character, a director can demand rewrites to amend those problems. Or he can just improvise without the use of a script and come up with a different scene altogether.

Unless he has been hired to be an yes men, director aren't slaves to a script. Jon Favs is a great example. Iron Man didn't even have a script. He and his cast basically improvised all the great scenes in the film. Now that is good directing.

I don't think it is any coincidence that Snyder's better films (flaws and all) like Man of Steel and Dawn of the Dead are the ones where he had the least control.

 

[shauner111]

Anyone read that "original Goyer script" for B v S? Not sure if i believe it because it almost feels a bit like a Marvel direction. But maybe it was that way and Snyder/WB didn't like it.

It was World's Finest instead of a battle between bats and supes. No mention of Justice League. KGBeast was the main villain. Luthor was written the way we wanted with Cranston or Phoenix in mind. It felt closer to Nolan's Batman since Bruce was dead to the public for a few years, and Lucius is killed.

 

[Chip Chipperson]

Anyone read that "original Goyer script" for B v S? Not sure if i believe it because it almost feels a bit like a Marvel direction. But maybe it was that way and Snyder/WB didn't like it.

It was World's Finest instead of a battle between bats and supes. No mention of Justice League. KGBeast was the main villain. Luthor was written the way we wanted with Cranston or Phoenix in mind. It felt closer to Nolan's Batman since Bruce was dead to the public for a few years, and Lucius is killed.

you have a link?

 

[The Joker]

I don't think it is any coincidence that Snyder's better films (flaws and all) like Man of Steel and Dawn of the Dead are the ones where he had the least control.

Says it all. His Snyderisms were kept under control.

 

[Ogre Mutagen]

Anyone read that "original Goyer script" for B v S? Not sure if i believe it because it almost feels a bit like a Marvel direction. But maybe it was that way and Snyder/WB didn't like it.

It was World's Finest instead of a battle between bats and supes. No mention of Justice League. KGBeast was the main villain. Luthor was written the way we wanted with Cranston or Phoenix in mind. It felt closer to Nolan's Batman since Bruce was dead to the public for a few years, and Lucius is killed.

That sounds really interesting. Would love to read it.

 

[Tacit Ronin]

My prediction: Lois will be saved four times in JL. One more from the three times she was saved in BvS. Which was one more to the two times she was saved MOS.

 

[I Am The Knight]

Actually she was saved 4 times in MOS.

1. Saved by Clark in the Alien ship then left for dead in the middle of nowhere.
2. Saved by Superman from falling to her death from space.
3. Saved by Superman from getting blasted by Zod's ship.
4. Saved by Superman from falling to her death from the plane.

 

[Tacit Ronin]

I guess she will be saved twice in JL then.

 

[DACrowe]

I just realized that Snyder is essentially the evil Whedon. I mean, here's some similarities...

1. Both have stated to prefer angsty characters. However, Whedon stays away from doing characters like Superman for that reason (he knows people will get upset).

2. Both have a reputation for being "comic book guys" in the industry, but Whedon himself never used that as an excuse for his films. In fact, Whedon's come out and apologized for the flaws in Age of Ultron and admitted it could've been better (and AoU is nowhere near BvS' reception).

3. Both have strong Leftist and Rightist leanings, but Whedon's Socialism doesn't inform any of the characters in the Avengers films. Meanwhile, Snyder thought it would be "cool" if Batman reads Atlas Shrugged.

Whedon is a socialist? I know he's liberal, but really?

In any event, very sharp observations. The difference is Whedon has made several great TV shows and has either co-written or wrote/adapted/directed four great movies (Serenity, Much Ado About Nothing, The Avengers, and Cabin in the Woods).

Snyder is a hack. I suppose that is the other half of this equation.

 

[DACrowe]

Have you dudes seen the 4chan rumors about Justice League's plot and their position on Zack, and Terrio?


Concerning the latter:



Assuming this is true, looks like 'Oscar Winner' Terrio was responsible for the crappy script.

He assumes that people will still probably dislike it, that's a massive red flag.

JLA "involving" and 'thrilling' like TDK? That's what they said the last two times.


The JL plot; beware spoilers:

Spoiler

Batman is trying to assemble the Justice League to protect the Earth from Darkseid, while the government, represented by Amanda Waller and Wade Eiling, is trying to capture them.

Darkseid is a "force of nature", and is impending arrival is described as "apocalyptic" with biblical undertones. He's also being redesigned, though they'll try to keep his classic look in mind.

Superman's rebirth is somehow connected to Darkseid, and includes Darkseid attempting to corrupt him in some sort of astral plane. Lois will be important to this subplot.

Darkseid will have some sort of ability to force the League members to handle their own dark sides and go through psychological trials. It appears to be capacity for good remains a theme of the movie, with the League members all being shown to be dysfunctional, angry people that could have tipped over to the dark side easily if circumstances were a little different.

The focus is on the six mains and Lois. Everyone else is just minor.

My thoughts:

Spoiler

More terrible religious metaphors.

I won't put it past Snyder to turn Superman evil.

As expected, all the heroes will be angry and depressed. Yes, he implies they will be good at the end, but never disregard Snyder's capacity to botch it.

If this true, and given the typos I have serious doubts, it sounds like Singer beat Snyder to it. The whole idea of an apocalypse with biblical undertones? See you there next Memorial Day, complete with "corrupting" heroes.

Also, if it is true (and even if it is not I wouldn't put this part past Snyder), that means Superman will likely turn evil but the rest of the JL will be tempted and stay good. Ergo, Superman, the godlike hero that they should aspire to, will be the weakest and most fallible, because altruism is for suckers right Ayn Snyder?

Ugh, as long as Snyder is in charge this whole enterprise seems doomed for mediocrity.

 

[Spider-Aziz]

I guess she will be saved twice in JL then.

Twice as much as MoS.

 

[The Joker]

Ugh, as long as Snyder is in charge this whole enterprise seems doomed for mediocrity.

Which is why I hope JL is his last movie. If the DCCU stands a chance of surviving he needs to go.

 

[I Am The Knight]

Twice as much as MoS.

With Superman dead, I wonder who will save her from falling to her death in JL.

 

[Pfeiffer-Pfan]

With Superman dead, I wonder who will save her from falling to her death in JL.

 

[Shikamaru]

Whedon is a socialist? I know he's liberal, but really?

Yes. It was one of the fears some people had going into Avengers. Also when the Mandarin twist leaked on the internet some fans thought Whedon was responsible for it.

By contrast, no one saw Snyder incoming. Even some of his biggest critics would often say things among the lines of "He loves the characters, he just needs a good script, etc." I include myself in that camp, or at least I did prior to BvS.

 

[Tacit Ronin]

Really? The Mandarin twist is very Shane Black. But then again, to a lot of these people, humor comes in one shade. Blackisms are markedly different from Whednoisms.