The Dark Knight Rises You Have My Permission To Lounge - Part 3

[The Joker]

When he tells Bruce that The Bat comes in black, it couldn't be more obvious he was urging him to come back as Batman.

 

[Spider-Aziz]

I'll have to watch that movie again, when I'm in the mood for it.

 

[The Batman]

Of all the main characters in TDKR, Alfred is the only person who doesn't want Batman to return, because he's the only person who understands how messed up Bruce is in TDKR.

 

[Ryan]

I think Alfred's position in tdkr is one of those elements I have a problem with. We went from TDK "Endure, Master Wayne. Take it. They'll hate you for it, but that's the point of Batman, he can be the outcast. He can make the choice that no one else can make, the right choice." to TDKR "Seven years I waited, hoping that you wouldn't come back." and " I never wanted you to come back to Gotham. I always knew there was nothing here for you, except pain and tragedy."

I have no issue with Alfred's position in itself, however in BB and especially in TDK he seemed pretty pro-Batman or at least cautiously supportive of the cause. I think I would have just preferred to hear Alfred say that its time to hang up the cape and cowl due to the toll its taken. The line about "I never wanted you to come back" always sticks in my craw, when compared to the "endure" speech in TDK or aiding Bruce in BB with excuses on how to maintain a dual identity.

 

[Ryan]

One question I have for anyone on the board would be about Bane's motives. I know it becomes a bone (or is it bane) of contention that there is a certain assertion that Bane is revealed at the end to be nothing more than a lackey of Talia's. I personally wouldn't go that far, however to me it was Talia that was in charge. I know a lot of that argument stems from Talia's order to Bane to kill Batman at the end, which is a discussion for another day. My main reasoning (and I can happily be proven wrong) is that I fail to see Bane's motive (or any motive for that matter) in coming to destroy Gotham and also to target Batman if it wasn't for the desires of Talia. Not to take away from how important he was in carrying out the operation (which I think he was), its for his own lack of motive that I find Talia to be the leader. I welcome any thoughts on the matter.

 

[The Joker]

Bruce didn't have a death wish in TDK though. He also wasn't 8 years out of practice and holding himself up on a leg brace.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

I see no reason to doubt that Bane's primary motive is different than what is said in the film. He is a League of Shadows terrorist extremist who wants to purge the most decadent, corrupt city on Earth. Just because Talia also wants that (as well as a bit of personal revenge for the death of her father) and Bane is also her protector, doesn't necessarily mean that he isn't a true believer in the cause.

 

[Ryan]

Bruce didn't have a death wish in TDK though. He also wasn't 8 years out of practice and holding himself up on a leg brace.

Oh and I have no problem with Alfred's thinking in tdkr that he should hang it up due to those reasons. What problem I had was his line that he "never" wanted Bruce to come back. It made it sound like he was against the whole thing the whole time, when to me it seemed he supported the idea, although cautiously in the first 2 films.

 

[BatLobster]

My take on Alfred in TDK is he's pretty much taking the position of, "You made this bed, now you have to lie in it."

I think Alfred believed in what Bruce was doing, and knew that he had to see the mission through once he was in the thick of it. As Bruce's ally, he knew that giving into The Joker's demands was not the right call. But deep down as Bruce's father figure, what he ultimately wanted was for Bruce to find happiness and to be able feel like he had done right by Thomas Wayne. I just see it as different layers of his character.

 

[Tacit Ronin]

Um, the whole 'feed Gotham hope to poison their souls and then shatter it' is Bane's MO. Recall the whole conversation Bane has with Bruce in the prison. Basically, Bane metaphorically plunged Gotham into the pit Bruce was in. The same sense of hope and despair that Bruce and the prisoners feel is the same one Bane wanted Gotham to feel.

Talia shares Bane's method because she was also felt the same despair and hope. They both share the unique experience of the pit.

 

[Ryan]

Um, the whole 'feed Gotham hope to poison their souls and then shatter it' is Bane's MO. Recall the whole conversation Bane has with Bruce in the prison. Basically, Bane metaphorically plunged Gotham into the pit Bruce was in. The same sense of hope and despair that Bruce and the prisoners feel is the same one Bane wanted Gotham to feel.

Talia shares Bane's method because she was also felt the same despair and hope. They both share the unique experience of the pit.

Yep, I do remember that whole part, but I guess my question (and maybe i'm not explaining it well) is....why? For example, Ras went after Gotham because he wanted to restore balance. He felt that Gotham had gone corrupt and wanted to renew it. Bane wasn't really after restoring balance, he simply wanted to destroy gotham, which again is fine but it helps if there is a bit of reasoning behind it. Again the only thing I can come up with is that Talia had this vendetta for what had happened to her father and held batman and gotham responsible. To me that makes sense as a motive.

 

[Greens]

Um, the whole 'feed Gotham hope to poison their souls and then shatter it' is Bane's MO. Recall the whole conversation Bane has with Bruce in the prison. Basically, Bane metaphorically plunged Gotham into the pit Bruce was in. The same sense of hope and despair that Bruce and the prisoners feel is the same one Bane wanted Gotham to feel.

Talia shares Bane's method because she was also felt the same despair and hope. They both share the unique experience of the pit.

Where is the hope part, though? He held the city hostage, declared martial law, destroyed their positive perception of Harvey Dent. He needlessly stalled the destruction of Gotham. That's why the bomb feels like a lazy plot device. There's no need to have a timer on there, just drop it and get the **** out.

 

[JackWhite]

The "hope" is giving Gotham back to the people and having kangaroo courts for the rich/oppressors.

 

[BatLobster]

The hope being offered is that there was a chance Gotham would survive, if the people took back the city. But in reality Gotham is just carrying on like a failed state under Bane's rule, most people living in fear while the some angry mobs indulge their darkest impulses- the city loses its soul. It's an act of cruelty and vengeance, because they want Gotham (and Bruce) to suffer before they put it out of its misery.

It wasn't enough for Bane and Talia to simply blow Gotham up. Remember, in Begins Ra's wanted the world to watch its greatest city tear itself apart. Bane says they want Bruce to truly understand the depth of his failure before they fulfill Ra's destiny. That means not only Bruce's failure in preventing Bane's takeover, but in proving once and for all that Gotham was never worth saving in the first place, hence the utter futility of Bruce's mission as a whole. It's not "once you've accepted how badly you've been beaten", it's "when you have truly understood the depth of you failure". It's as personal as it is ideological this time.

Like Tacit says, what Bane is doing to Bruce is essentially the same as what he's doing to Gotham. And that's not an accident thematically, throughout the trilogy Bruce's fate is very much intrinsically connected to Gotham's, just like his father's was.

 

[Ryan]

My question is whether Ras's goal was the same as Talia's? I could be wrong, but my understanding was that Ras wanted to purge Gotham due to how corrupt it had become. It also sounded like the plans were already under way to target Gotham before Bruce ever came along. Whereas Talia's plan sounded like she just wanted to destroy Gotham/Bruce to honour her father and seek revenge.

 

[Brother Jack]

It wasn't enough for Bane and Talia to simply blow Gotham up. Remember, in Begins Ra's wanted the world to watch its greatest city tear itself apart. Bane says they want Bruce to truly understand the depth of his failure before they fulfill Ra's destiny. That means not only Bruce's failure in preventing Bane's takeover, but in proving once and for all that Gotham was never worth saving in the first place, hence the utter futility of Bruce's mission as a whole. It's not "once you've accepted how badly you've been beaten", it's "when you have truly understood the depth of you failure". It's as personal as it is ideological this time.

This is really the heart of it. For the LOS's mission to succeed Gotham must appear to have destroyed itself from within. It is not enough for some foreign enemy to come and incinerate it; the city's own intrinsic corruption has to be the thing that sets it to ruin in the eyes of the outside world. It's why Ra's came in a completely clandestine fashion with the fear toxin and why Bane presented himself as a militant liberator. They are dramatic examples to shake the world out of its apathy.

My question is whether Ras's goal was the same as Talia's? I could be wrong, but my understanding was that Ras wanted to purge Gotham due to how corrupt it had become. It also sounded like the plans were already under way to target Gotham before Bruce ever came along. Whereas Talia's plan sounded like she just wanted to destroy Gotham/Bruce to honour her father and seek revenge.

It was two-tiered. Everything she and Bane did was to attain revenge and to fulfill the league's mission statement that Gotham had to go. Bane attacking the stock exchange, for instance, served the duel purpose of personally hurting Bruce and driving Wayne Enterprises and the reactor into Miranda's control. It's micro and macro.

 

[Greens]

The "hope" is giving Gotham back to the people and having kangaroo courts for the rich/oppressors.

But that hope was never there. Bane announces his presence by BLOWING UP A FOOTBALL FIELD and setting off bombs all over the city. Then, he tells the people of Gotham to go home and hold their families close. Then, he breaks out all of the criminals who go off on a rampage.

This is the problem with the story. The ideas you guys are presenting here sound great and there were a lot of amazing theories from Hypesters leading up to the release of the movie. However, the execution of it fell flat in a lot of ways. You guys are adding info that isn't there but should have been. I still liked TDKR but it could have been a lot more. Instead, the execution of the story almost felt cartoony compared to TDK and even BB.

 

[Batsfan1]

Where is the hope part, though? He held the city hostage, declared martial law, destroyed their positive perception of Harvey Dent. He needlessly stalled the destruction of Gotham. That's why the bomb feels like a lazy plot device. There's no need to have a timer on there, just drop it and get the **** out.

The hope is the hope of survival, of escape. It's a false hope though, which is ultimately poisonous to Gotham. Much like Alfred's lie of false hope to Bruce that he could be with Rachel is toxic to him. It actually connects nicely to Gotham's false hope of having Harvey Dent as a hero as well.

But that hope was never there. Bane announces his presence by BLOWING UP A FOOTBALL FIELD and setting off bombs all over the city. Then, he tells the people of Gotham to go home and hold their families close. Then, he breaks out all of the criminals who go off on a rampage.

This is the problem with the story. The ideas you guys are presenting here sound great and there were a lot of amazing theories from Hypesters leading up to the release of the movie. However, the execution of it fell flat in a lot of ways. You guys are adding info that isn't there but should have been. I still liked TDKR but it could have been a lot more. Instead, the execution of the story almost felt cartoony compared to TDK and even BB.

There's no adding info with the plan statement. This is the plan as it's stated by Bane in the movie. The fact is that the people of Gotham didn't react the way Bane wanted. The criminals and already negative people did. If they had, then that would have contradicted a point from TDK. Do I think the movie executes this all very well? Not really. But that's the plan. Have a very great day you and everyone!

God bless you! God bless everyone!

 

[Greens]

The hope is the hope of survival, of escape. It's a false hope though, which is ultimately poisonous to Gotham.

How is it poisonous to Gotham? Isn't the fact that Bane holds the city hostage poisonous to Gotham and not the "false hope" he inspires? That's what I meant with adding things that aren't really there. That extra layer is only said out loud by Bane but the film doesn't deliver on it. The citizens of Gotham barely get any focus in the movie. They just hide until Batman saves the day. Because of that, the city doesn't feel populated and because of THAT the stakes aren't as high as they should be.

 

[AnneFan]

I think Bane was basically using doublespeak. Speaking about freedom and empowerment with a straight face but actually sending the signals, through his actions, that it's anything but. Bane wanted to torture the soul of Gotham, just like Bruce. To stay in Gotham is to live in fear, and to try and escape equals death anyway. They were surviving day to day, but not furthering their cause to rid themselves of Bane. Batman is who gave them that hope. Foley's reaction to the burning bat logo says it all.

 

[Batsfan1]

How is it poisonous to Gotham? Isn't the fact that Bane holds the city hostage poisonous to Gotham and not the "false hope" he inspires? That's what I meant with adding things that aren't really there. That extra layer is only said out loud by Bane but the film doesn't deliver on it. The citizens of Gotham barely get any focus in the movie. They just hide until Batman saves the day. Because of that, the city doesn't feel populated and because of THAT the stakes aren't as high as they should be.

Of course the film doesn't give it, because Bane is wrong in connection to Gotham. Have a very great day you and everyone!

God bless you! God bless everyone!

 

[BatLobster]

It's not about adding anything to the movie, it's just using what's there and getting a read on the subtext to form a coherent interpretation.

I think Bane was basically using doublespeak. Speaking about freedom and empowerment with a straight face but actually sending the signals, through his actions, that it's anything but. Bane wanted to torture the soul of Gotham, just like Bruce. To stay in Gotham is to live in fear, and to try and escape equals death anyway. They were surviving day to day, but not furthering their cause to rid themselves of Bane. Batman is who gave them that hope. Foley's reaction to the burning bat logo says it all.

Bingo. The hope Bane speaks of is a faint, slowly fading kind of hope. Like they say, hope dies last. Bane is just exploiting human nature. Think of all the old men in the prison. How many times they must have tried and failed to make that climb before finally accepting their fate?

Bane wants to torture Bruce's soul. It's the same principle with Gotham.

 

[Brother Jack]

The hope for the average citizen is the chance that Bane would be true to his word and wouldn't just destroy the city regardless. It's a slim, ambiguous chance but it's there. Foley is the one who vocalizes it as a kind of stand-in for those who were hiding out in their homes all that time. And also, some actually did enjoy the social upheaval. For them, Bane really was offering a kind of liberation and extreme social justice.

 

[AnneFan]

Bingo. The hope Bane speaks of is a faint, slowly fading kind of hope. Like they say, hope dies last. Bane is just exploiting human nature. Think of all the old men in the prison. How many times they must have tried and failed to make that climb before finally accepting their fate?

Bane wants to torture Bruce's soul. It's the same principle with Gotham.

I think releasing the Blackgate prisoners is a key example of Bane's doublespeak. He's freeing people who were jailed based on a lie, because Bane is all about truth and justice apparently. But these prisoners really are bad news, and they're armed and dangerous as soon as they're busted out. That's not a win for civilisation. The people taking control aren't the everyday citizens, but Bane's men and the Blackgate prisoners.

 

[Ryan]

I guess for most of the reasons mentioned above I couldn't really get behind Talia's plan as I did Ras'.