The Dark Knight Rises You Have My Permission To Lounge - Part 4

[BatLobster]

Hopefully most of us can agree that "MARTHA" is a much dumber scene than Blake feeling it in his bones.

Especially because the entire movie hinges on the coincidence that their mothers share the same name, and that's the big moment that leads to the resolution of a character arc.

As evidenced above, I can roll with a bit of melodrama at the expense of logic in my Batman movies...but this was just a step too far for me and Snyder's handling of it (MORE slow-mo flashbacks to the Waynes' murder in case we didn't get it ) just took it to cringe-worthy levels. The defense that Bruce hadn't considered that Superman would've had a mother until that moment doesn't even make work, since he's literally talking about what he imagines what Superman's parents taught him moments earlier. I get what they were going for with that moment, but man the execution makes it near impossible to stomach for me.

I feel like if they really wanted to pay some lip service to the fact that their mothers share the same name as some sort of nod to them having more in common than they realize, it should've been a smaller character beat somewhere. Not THE moment that resolves the titular conflict...

 

[The Joker]

Definitely. The Martha scene is right down there with Batman pulling out a Bat credit card in B&R in terms of stupidity. But at least the credit card scene was funny and fit the campy tone of the movie.

 

[Slade W]

Like how Feige and co get comic writers involved as a "brain-trust" when making their movies (or at least they did in the early days, I am not sure if they still do it), who do you think would be the best comic writers for the DCEU to get involved for their movies? Perhaps, even some writers just for their input on a specific character like a villain.

ATM, I wouldn't mind if they got Scott Snyder involved regarding Batman. I think he has been doing good work the last few years. There would be others that I would also like them to work with. For WW, Gail Simone is one of the writers that I would to get involved.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

This conversation is getting weird.
I don't know why I thought Batman was the jerk the first time I've seen it.
Looked weird seeing Wolverine being the actual jerk on my second view of it.

Batman was a jerk. Wolverine was a murderous psychopath.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

Definitely. The Martha scene is right down there with Batman pulling out a Bat credit card in B&R in terms of stupidity. But at least the credit card scene was funny and fit the campy tone of the movie.

Also the Bat Credit Card was just a quick gag. Martha was the most important scene in the entire film.

 

[The Shape]

Personally, I don't have too much of a problem with Blake deducing Batman's identity and revealing this knowledge to Bruce. Sure, it was a contrived and convenient plot device, but Nolan's films often have moments like that and it was a seemingly crucial element of the plot, I guess.

However, my problem with it lies most in the way it was presented, with Blake's seemingly random and unprovoked expression of an expositional monologue before making a dramatic exit from the room. I think there could have been a more effective and less cheesy way of tackling that moment.

 

[Spider-Aziz]

Batman was a jerk. Wolverine was a murderous psychopath.

Ruining his show as payback for doing it first is funny.

 

[BatLobster]

Now that I'm thinking about it, I really wish BvS didn't try to turn Luthor into a Joker-like villain with this crazy complex plan that accurately predicts everyone's behavior, pulling the strings to get Bats and Supes to fight.

I think I would've much preferred a version of the movie where Lex and Bruce form an uneasy alliance based on their shared worldview of Superman needing to be put in check, where Luthor is more direct about his intentions to Bruce- maybe a bit of a devil whispering in his ear, appealing to his darker side. I also think it could've worked if Bruce started out just wanting to get his hands on kryptonite as a deterrent "just in case", but then events of the movie slowly sway him more to Lex's side and he realizes that he he has to do something active about the situation. Not necessarily that he has to murder Superman, but maybe to show him that he's not as invincible as he thinks he is and put some fear into him. In effect to become the "someone" that Superman has to answer to, if he won't answer to the government.

I don't know, these are just scattershot ideas- I just think it may have made for a more interesting and nuanced conflict if Bruce was less of a straight up murderous a-hole and had enough sense to realize that Superman was actually someone with a good heart and good intentions who just so happened to be making a mess of things on Earth in a geopolitical sense. He could've viewed his power as a serious issue that something needed to be done about, without having a seething hatred for him. Things could've gotten more personal and heated as their relationship developed through their interactions, but I definitely do wonder what the movie could've been if it didn't start at the point A of Bruce absolutely hating and wanting to kill Superman.

Admittedly, that's probably more of the movie I was imagining in my head when it was rumored that Bale's Batman was going to be involved. But idk, I still wonder if it would've been a more interesting direction regardless.

 

[DACrowe]

"Martha" is an example, I think, of showing why some critiques are overstated by fans of Rises. Rises has some clunky dialogue here and there and is not nearly as clean as Nolan's best movies (which includes The Dark Knight), but it is still head and shoulders better developed as a story and a world with characters than most superhero movies...

And now we have an epically awful Batman movie with Batman v Superman. Granted, I do not think there are many worse lines than "Martha" or worse scenes in the genre. However, it crystallizes that perceived mountains were really molehills when in the shadow of this Everest sized **** up.

Just a hunch.

 

[Spider-Aziz]

I really wanted the script to use John Byrne's Man of Steel #3 as a template of how to make their vs to team-up work.

 

[Tacit Ronin]

I bet Terrio thought he was being clever with the Martha scene. "Darn, Superman and Batman have mothers with the same first name. Bet the fanboys don't know this. Oh how they will blow their wads when they find out. I am gonna use this as the reason they inconceivably team up. Becsuse I know ass about the characters. Hahaha", as he smashed his hands together.

 

[BatLobster]

I always picture that being a stoner realization that either Snyder and Terrio (or Goyer, who knows) had while brainstorming between tokes.

"Duuude. I've got it...the key to all of this is *coughs* 'Martha'."

"Martha...as in Martha Wayne?"

"What about... Martha Kent?"

"Dude."

"Right?"

"DUDE."

"RIGHT?"

*Coughs* "Woah...this just got f***in DEEP."

"Did we just become best friends?"

"YUP."

 

[BatmanBeyond]

I always picture that being a stoner realization that either Snyder and Terrio (or Goyer, who knows) had while brainstorming between tokes.

"Duuude. I've got it...the key to all of this is *coughs* 'Martha'."

"Martha...as in Martha Wayne?"

"What about... Martha Kent?"

"Dude."

"Right?"

"DUDE."

"RIGHT?"

*Coughs* "Woah...this just got f***in DEEP."

"Did we just become best friends?"

"YUP."

This is now my official canon for that, ahem, 'brainstorming' session.

Myth? Have you seen his movies? The most risque he has ever gotten was that one character in his first film Following sniffing on some chick's panties.

Yep, sure have. I'm thinking of the Bruce/Talia scene from TDKR, for example. No prudeness there, especially in the way Cotillard's generous bosom is brought into focus when she's checking out the picture of Rachel.

In any case, I just think Nolan's the kind of director that only uses sexual tension and scenes of a sexual nature when there's a need for them. Don't think it's a case of him being a prude, but more a case of his movies not focusing on such themes/subjects.

 

[Spider-Aziz]

I always picture that being a stoner realization that either Snyder and Terrio (or Goyer, who knows) had while brainstorming between tokes.

Spoiler

"Duuude. I've got it...the key to all of this is *coughs* 'Martha'."

"Martha...as in Martha Wayne?"

"What about... Martha Kent?"

"Dude."

"Right?"

"DUDE."

"RIGHT?"

*Coughs* "Woah...this just got f***in DEEP."

"Did we just become best friends?"

"YUP."

I don't know why, but this crap reminds me of Cobblepot's speech on TV, the one Bruce Wayne was watching and said after the end of it "subtle".

Bruce's distrust of Penguin in Batman Returns bothered me for a while, but hardly as much as BvS Batman hatred of Superman.

 

[AnneFan]

It's funny how tags gets thrown around. Defend BvS and you are dismissed as a 'Snyder fanboy'. Snyder fanboy wouldn't describe me anyway. I like Batman in his various forms. Adam West, Keaton, Conroy and Bale.

 

[Spider-Aziz]

You're an 'Anne Fanboy'.

 

[The Joker]

Snyder fanboys are the types who tell you that you didn't 'get' the movie rather than accepting you understood it just fine you just did not like it, or think it worked despite the intentions behind it.

 

[Greens]

Isn't every x-fanboy like that, though?

 

[The Batman]

Even when I hung around the X forums during the "Last Stand" days, people didn't get as pretentious as some of the posters who defend MOS and BvS.

As I've said before though, there were a few TDKR fanboys who were similar to Snyder fanboys today.

 

[Greens]

I just don't get how one can so vigorously defend a movie. I really liked Man of Steel, probably more than most people here, but I'm not gonna call someone a doofus for disliking it. The film does have flaws.

 

[Spider-Aziz]

I just don't get how one can so vigorously defend a movie. I really liked Man of Steel, probably more than most people here, but I'm not gonna call someone a doofus for disliking it. The film does have flaws.

I can understand.
I've often defended Spider-Man 3, the game, the Treyarch developed one, and wrote long posts defending it and telling what I don't like about a lot of criticism it received.
My view did not change, but I grew tired of trying to bring others to my side of the view, and resisting them trying to convince me I'm wrong.

 

[DACrowe]

Even when I hung around the X forums during the "Last Stand" days, people didn't get as pretentious as some of the posters who defend MOS and BvS.

As I've said before though, there were a few TDKR fanboys who were similar to Snyder fanboys today.

I remember every movie having its passionate defenders, save for Fox's Fantastic Four in 2015. I recall fans explaining that Spider-Man 3 was great (I do think it's underrated), The Amazing Spider-Man 2 is great, that Fantastic Four '05 was better than Batman Begins, and LXG was better than the first Pirates of the Caribbean. Even Green Lantern had its delusional defenders insisting it was as good as MCU's movies.

With that said, Batman v Superman might be the most extreme that I have seen it. Because they are not only arguing it is a good movie that they enjoyed (which is fine it's their opinion). Their argument is based strictly around the concept that BvS is a profound piece of art that informs how we live our lives today.

That is just silly.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

The reaction is very similar to that of The Phantom Menace back in 1999. I remember a lot of fans defending that one as one of the great films in the history of cinema too. Then over time the voices quieted down.

 

[Gold Samurai]

The dialogue is on Terrio trying to be clever.

God save us it was providence this happened!



They really loved using the word "providence" First with Pete Ross's mom them Lex Luthor

 

[JackWhite]

Fanboys just make the world go 'round and 'round.