You Have My Permission To Lounge - Part 4

Discussion in 'The Dark Knight Rises' started by Thread Manager, Jul 17, 2016.

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  1. The Joker

    The Joker The Clown Prince of Crime

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    Because you are so certain in what you're saying right down to citing sexual stuff being cut out, that your opinion had to be based on more than just supposition. That maybe you had read an interview with him or someone who worked on his movies, saying he prefers to cut that sort of thing out, or avoids it.

    But you just seem to be putting 2 and 2 together and getting 5. Especially in light of other great directors, like the aforementioned Spielberg and Kubrick, doing the very same thing with their movies for nearly 30 years into their careers.
     
  2. Tacit Ronin

    Tacit Ronin Registered

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    No. That's what watching those scenes make me feel. But he did leave out that sex scene in Interstellar. Plus, the desexification (that's not a word) of Insomnia simply reinforce my opinion. They are not meant to portray facts.

    Like I said, Nolan is only presently prude (to me). Which may or may not change. We shall see. But Spielberg even earlier in his career was never as dry as Nolan (to me).
     
    #977 Tacit Ronin, Aug 22, 2016
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2016
  3. shauner111

    shauner111 Registered

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    Why is Kubrick being brought up? Most of his films are sexual...

    Or did i read too quickly, and missed the point?

    Nolan might be seen as a prude, fair enough. But i don't think that's the case. He just doesn't believe it's necessary, until it's...well...necessary. Who cares what's in the original Insomnia. That doesn't sound very interesting to me if Pacino's character acted this way. It doesn't add a damn thing and it just sounds like it was thrown in there to either A) make the audience wonder who's the real pervert or B) some kind of perverted fantasy by the writer/director. Nolan wasn't copying the original note for note. In his version that stuff wasn't needed for Pacino's character and it would have been an unnecessary distraction. Perhaps he felt that
    Pacino's character having such guilt, and killing his partner or not, would have been just enough for the audience to question how good this guy really is. Or if he was redeemable by the end.

    Why would sex help us connect to the Brandt/Coop couple? The point is not that Coop and Brandt have this this love for each other, and they had sex, etc...and now Coop is going off only because of his love for her. The point is that he was ready to leave anyway. The POSSIBILITY of love is there, but he'll never know if he doesn't try. He doesn't have to go after her. He's arrived in the future and everything seems great, but as we see when he sits down in front of his "house"..he's not content. He's not satisfied with acting like we're still in the past. He wants to evolve and explore the universe. That's who he is, so he was going to pull something drastic anyway. His daughter just gives him that extra push by telling him he should go after Anne. We don't know if he'll get there, but if he does, they'll probably start a family on that empty planet. But in my opinion, the sex scene is almost too on the nose especially after all the other ON THE NOSE stuff that Nolan threw in there. What would the sex scene do other than get some laughs from the audience?

    Maybe Nolan is a bit of a prude, but i do think he puts more thought into why a sex scene is necessary or not...more than what Tacit is saying. Like he just avoids it for the sake of avoiding sex. The Miranda/Bruce scene was enough. NOTHING else was needed. Snyder would have added an ass shot or something :yay:

    Did we need a Harvey/Rachel sex scene? Or a Bruce/Rachel one? I don't think so. How about a sex scene between Cobb and Mal to show how much they love each other? You can achieve that without sex. And you can achieve it with sex. It just wasn't necessary in Inception.

    It doesn't. He is a cop, becomes a detective shortly after, he's the only character in that universe that was also an orphan and he perfectly describes what it's like to be in that situation that him and Bruce were forced to deal with at a young age. His story that he tells Bruce is from at least 9 years prior.

    I'll say it again, it's ridiculous that every other character doesn't figure it out. It should be obvious that a person with great wealth is going out at night, doing this crazy bat thing. But it's presented in a really great way in this trilogy, that these people don't really care to know. They're kinda oblivious, ignorant, and some like Gordon don't even want to figure it out. Blake just happens to be the guy with common sense, curiosity, trust issues and some deep rooted problems of his own that not only connect him to Bruce Wayne but it makes him understand the concept of creating a persona. It's all in his story and i don't understand why anyone finds it stupid, really.

    The line is all about interpretation. "Right then, i knew who you really were. I've seen that look before. The same one i taught myself." as in "i knew who you really were. A sad, darker individual not the happy, playboy". He never says "i knew you were the Batman, right then and then.". It's you guys who are assuming that he meant that. So from my perspective, the way he figured it out (9 years later), it makes PERFECT SENSE.

    That's always been an exaggeration in my opinion. I think he would last a lot longer.

    I don't care if you call it Snyder fanboy territory. It makes perfect sense to me. Martha on the other hand..

    If anything, to me, the way Blake acts in that scene and the music/exit from the room...that was the best part and it hit me emotionally. I've read a lot of complaints about the writing in that scene but never about JGL's expression or the way that scene ends. I didn't find it cheesy at all.
     
  4. The Joker

    The Joker The Clown Prince of Crime

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    Oh yes it does. Big time. This should not even be debatable. When some stranger figures out the Batman's identity, that needs an explanation. A secret as closely guarded as that is not explained away in its discovery by a look someone recognized on Bruce's face years ago. No way, no how. When Mr. Reese figured it out, we got an adequate thorough explanation that made sense. This Blake stuff was just rubbish.

    What difference does him being an orphan or a detective make? Seriously look at the information we're given here and explain to me how this makes a lick of sense to him figuring it out based on Bruce hiding emotional pain. Bruce Wayne seeing his parents killed was public knowledge. Of course he is hiding the anger and pain of that happening. That's not what he meant when he said he knew who he was. Hiding anger and pain doesn't make him someone else. People do that every day hiding anger and pain by putting on a front and pretending everything is ok. Who here has not pretended everything was ok at least once in their life when secretly you were angry or sad about something. I know I have several times. He was blatantly referring to knowing he was Batman. But where did Blake get that made him Batman from? In his own words he said as soon as he recognized that look on his face he knew who he was.

    Is there some text book psychological rule that angry orphaned kids put on costumes and become crime fighting vigilantes? There's no common sense here about it. If Batman's identity was that easy to figure out there would be more than hot head knocking on his door saying I know who you are.

    It doesn't make any sense no matter what way you look at it.
     
    #979 The Joker, Aug 22, 2016
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2016
  5. shauner111

    shauner111 Registered

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    I meant it doesn't need an explanation bigger than what was given. Sorry dude, but we may just have to agree to disagree on this because for me it made perfect sense. It's rubbish that nobody else can put two and two together. This was my point when i said that the majority of comic book readers had a problem with this yet tend to completely suspend their disbelief while watching the movies just because it happens that way in the comics. Real world logic comes into play in this particular case. But Nolan made Blake the realistic one out of the bunch. Gotham just turns a blind eye or they're just a bit stupid. I don't really know which one it is but regardless of the answer, we have to suspend our disbelief that nobody else would be able to put two and two together. I love that Nolan made at least one character like the audience. Any of us here would be able to figure it out.

    People genuinely seem to look at Bruce as a moron who blows money on stupid crap, and when he does put the money to good use they still don't really take him too seriously. Sure everybody has problems, but this is a permanent character for Bruce when in public. Nobody seems to see anything in this guy besides the facade. Blake sees through the mask.

    Is anybody besides Reese questioning Bruce about helping Batman financially or being the Batman? No. That's unrealistic to the core. But we suspend disbelief because it's a comic book movie. That's fine. But then why do we pick on Blake for looking at this sad clown and coming to the conclusion (eventually) that he's crimefighter?

    If you're going to nitpick one and not the other, i say that's absolutely ridiculous and it reeks of that same fanboy attitude that you guys talk about when discussing Snyder's movies/fanbase.

    Let's take my interpretation of that big line out of it, and just assume he's saying "i knew from that look on your face that you were the batman"..since you're always so technical and don't even want a discussion unless it's all based around fact.

    A lot of kids at the orphanage entertained the idea that Bruce was Batman, but it was just stories and they didn't look into it at all. Unlike Blake who knew it wasn't just a fun little fantasy for a kid to make up. If im 15 years old and me and my friends are joking about a rich billionaire being Batman based on the fact that he's in shape, has the funds, whatever the case may be....and this clown gives off a weird vibe at one point (that fake mask that Blake mentioned)...yeah man im going to look at him and think "what if he is? you know what...i think you're the Batman Mr. Wayne". I would put that s**t together because it's friggin easy to figure out.

    How is this NOT a case where fans are like "duh! i would have figured it out too, based on his whole act. Somebody's doing the Batman gig who has loads of cash to spend". That, ill never know. Even if he thought BATMAN!! when he looked at him, i still think there's logic to it since this kid is a deeper thinker. He's not just looking at the surface of anything in Gotham City. Why is he the only one questioning the Dent murders? Shouldn't there be more?

    People pick on certain things and give other s**t a pass in this trilogy. It's the same with Jokers plan in TDK which needs some suspension of disbelief that he was able to get all that stuff done with the ferries in time....but of course Rises and even Begins gets thrown under the bus for some of the "holes". Because everyone likes to act as if TDK is a masterpiece and the others fall short of that.

    Sorry if im all over the place but im just quickly typing this incase i don't have time later.
     
  6. BatLobsterRises

    BatLobsterRises Lobsterized

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    I've always said that the bigger conceit is that nobody else is able to just put it together using common sense, as opposed to one guy putting two and two together. Given that Blake is somewhat of an audience surrogate in the movie, it worked for me and it was kind of like a "huh, alright did NOT see that coming but I see what they did there" type of moment.

    I think perhaps what some people reacted against with that scene is that the movie was asserting Blake as a "special" character in this universe before it was ever really earned, which I honestly do get how that could be off-putting. For me though I just immediately viewed that scene as confirmation of him being the Nolanverse version of Robin, which I was able to get behind because it instantly made me sit up and pay closer attention to Blake as a character.
     
  7. shauner111

    shauner111 Registered

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    Sure, maybe it's a little weird that Blake is the special one. But it's all about perspective. If you're looking at it like YA RIGHT sooo they're all ******ed yet Blake is mr. intelligent! Then okay. But then there's the perspective of "how is nobody seeing this right now? it's right in front of your eyes! im with Blake on this!"

    I find the second one to be more logical.

    And it really does help when you have a great score creeping in that scene, good acting from Bale and JGL, the Robin revelation, and the button on that whole thing is seeing Bruce talk to Alfred about investigating Bane and getting out to the hospital to see Gordon. It's like YEAAHHH BLAKE MY MAN JUST GOT BRUCE TO GET BACK OUT THERE! I don't know man, i rooted for Blake because of that. And saving Gordon's life before that scene. It just made me buy into him more. He was questioning things from the first scene he was in, on that rooftop with Jim.
     
  8. The Joker

    The Joker The Clown Prince of Crime

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    I think Blake was the most unrealistic character Nolan did in this trilogy. He was too much of a Mary Sue. A Polly perfect. Every character was flawed and real in some way in this trilogy. Even trusty Alfred wasn't portrayed as perfect making some flawed decisions like burning Rachel's letter, and Gordon participating in the cover up for Dent's crimes. They did it for noble reasons but their actions were wrong, and it came back to bite them in the ass. Whereas Blake was walking around with his halo, passing judgement on others, always seemed to know something wasn't as it seemed e.g. interrogating Gordon about the night Dent died, knowing Batman took the fall for Dent's murder etc. If there was one character I would take out of the trilogy its him. It really annoyed me that he was the one to give Gordon some flowery moral speech after the Dent cover up came out. Who cares what this newbie who has no connection to it, and wasn't even there in the previous movies thinks about that.

    Why would anyone other than Reese be questioning Bruce financing Batman? Nobody else knew about it. Where did you get the impression that the other kids at the orphanage made up stories about Bruce being Batman? Blake said they were impressed about Bruce being a billionaire orphan and used to make up stories about him. Where did you derive from that it was Batman stories? Nobody is going to put the fact that Bruce is rich, and is hiding his pain about his parents, and come to the conclusion that means he's Batman. Nobody. That is an equation that doesn't even add up. Rich people can feel emotional hurt the same as anyone else. Why would anyone automatically assume that makes him Batman? Or that Batman is someone who has lost loved ones? He could simply be someone who believes in justice, is frustrated with the failed system and corruption, and decided to take matters into his own hands. But not Blake, he knew right then and there based on a look that Bruce was Batman.

    The reason this gets picked on is because its too stupid to even suspend disbelief. Batman's secret identity got figured out by some nobody he met once briefly all based on a look. You'd find better quality writing on the back of a cereal box.
     
    #983 The Joker, Aug 22, 2016
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2016
  9. The Shape

    The Shape In the shadows

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    If we're being honest, though, it shouldn't be deemed "impossible" for someone to accurately deduce the Batman's identity. At least not in a more grounded, less fantastical world like Nolan's.

    In Blake's case, he had a striking memory of Bruce Wayne. Years later after learning about the Batman, thinking about the kind of wealth that would be necessary to do what Batman does and to have all the tech/vehicles that he had, remembering his meeting with Bruce Wayne and all that happened to Bruce when he has boy, realizing that Bruce Wayne essentially became a hermit after Dent's murders -- it just clicked for him. Although it isn't stated in the film, he likely would have done some further digging to confirm his suspicion.

    Still, I thought the execution of this idea was weak and the "reveal" of Blake knowing felt kind of awkward and forced.
     
  10. Tacit Ronin

    Tacit Ronin Registered

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    The problem with using the logic that Bruce Wayne's identity should be easy figure out as a defense for Blake is that it's still crap writing. If you've established an universe where people aren't smart enough to figure out his identity, then you should commit to it. If you break that rule solely to prop up an important character than you're cheapening the entire universe. Not just Blake. Doesn't work.
     
  11. The Joker

    The Joker The Clown Prince of Crime

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    I can buy people figuring out Batman's identity, if its done credibly. I can't think of a comic book hero with a secret identity who didn't have it figured out by someone. I totally bought how Mr. Reese found out. I bought how Ra's Al Ghul figured it out in BTAS and the comics.

    Someone figuring it out based on some obscure look that tells you nothing other than someone is hiding emotional pain......ridiculous.
     
  12. Tacit Ronin

    Tacit Ronin Registered

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    Um, Shape, Blake stated he knew right there and then.
     
  13. The Shape

    The Shape In the shadows

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    I'm aware. I was speculating on how the process of Blake deducing Batman's identity isn't completely implausible or impossible, tracing the steps of how he could get there mentally.

    The problem I have with it is partially what you're referring to, that he just blurts it out the first time he meets Bruce with this long, drawn-out, emotional story. I think it would have been more effective for Blake to have a more understated "I've known all along" moment later on in the film with Bruce, after showing how smart and resourceful he was while working alongside Bruce/Batman. However, the plot of TDKR didn't really allow for that kind of relationship or build-up between them.

    I definitely don't think it should or would be easy to deduce Batman's identity. Theoretically, I think very few people -- if any -- would be able to do so.
     
  14. BatLobsterRises

    BatLobsterRises Lobsterized

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    Do you think that also applies to villains like Hugo Strange and Bane who also just deduce his identity pretty easily in the comics?
     
  15. The Joker

    The Joker The Clown Prince of Crime

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    Hugo Strange didn't deduce it. He unmasked Batman;

    [​IMG]
     
    #990 The Joker, Aug 22, 2016
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2016
  16. Tacit Ronin

    Tacit Ronin Registered

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    Bane and Strange are geniuses. Blake is not. He just felt it in his bones and stuff. It's not even a comparison.
     
  17. titansupes

    titansupes Registered

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    I think the Blake reveal would've played better if one of two things had happened-- Either (as theShape said) make it slower and add a couple of lines such as "I knew then and there that there was something different about you. So when I became a cop, I did some digging..." and from there we can just assume that Blake put things together in a detective-y way. You still get the "We're the same" emotional reaction, but it's easier to swallow. A couple of extra lines would've been all it took.

    The (slightly) more complicated one (which has become my head canon to the point where I have to consciously remind myself that it's not actually part of the real scene!) would involve some of the patented quick-cut Nolan flashbacks-- Blake tells of how the mother died, which he can't remember... Then how the father was killed over gambling debts, and "that one I remember just fine"-- Cut to the guys bursting in, killing the father, raise the gun to the screaming little Robin-- Something grabs them-- Batman. The kid wails, tries to wake his father, completely breaks down-- Batman holds the kid sympathetically. "I saw the Batman's eyes that night... and I'd see them once more, too." Cut to Bruce arriving at the orphanage, Blake recognizing him etc.

    Super dramatic and kind of awesome, I think. The only big-ish issue you could run into with this option is timeline stuff, but you could fudge Blake's age a bit.

    [​IMG]
     
    #992 titansupes, Aug 22, 2016
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2016
  18. BatLobsterRises

    BatLobsterRises Lobsterized

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    Forgive me Joker, I'm a bit rusty on my Hugo Strange history but isn't his deal that he's always kind of implying that he knows Batman's identity even prior to any unmasking situation? On his wiki bio it says he's the first villain to deduce Batman's identity. To be honest I've always been a bit confused about this. I'm pretty sure that at least the Arkham games go with the backstory that he deduced his identity from afar, so I figure that idea originated from somewhere.

    To me though intuition is just as valid way to go about it. It honestly doesn't require a super-intellect to put it together. Bane figured it out in the comics by watching the way Bruce moved. Blake figured it out with a look. Both are are just examples of sharp instincts (in addition to being convenient writing) if you ask me. You don't need a PhD for that.

    While we're at it though, nothing about Knightfall ever really made me believe Bane was an actual genius. Reasonably smart? Sure. But genius...nah, I don't see it. His oh-so-brilliant plan was to break inmates out of Arkham to tire Batman out, then swoop in. That's it. Not exactly rocket science. He's not on Riddler, Lex, or even Joker's level in terms of intellect IMO. Just a guy who had will power to match Bruce's, a solid plan, patience and a bit of super-strength all coming together to get the job done.

    I agree, that would've helped it a bit for me too.
     
    #993 BatLobsterRises, Aug 22, 2016
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2016
  19. Tacit Ronin

    Tacit Ronin Registered

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    Nah man. Bane ain't a genius, fine. But he has a great tactical mind which he honed for years in prison. Teaching himself and being taught in the prison's wisest and most experienced.

    Blake was a kid who knew right then and there that Bruce was Batman.

    Bane's instincts were molded. Blake's were instantly materialized in his bones and stuff.
     
  20. Tacit Ronin

    Tacit Ronin Registered

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    Bane figured out because he felt it in his bones and stuffed friend, dear Osito, told him.
     
  21. Spider-Aziz

    Spider-Aziz Not the Voice You Know

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    He knew?

    [​IMG]

    AARRRRRHHHH
     
  22. BatmanBeyond

    BatmanBeyond Shadow On The Run

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    This is my take on the whole deal as well. The manner in which he chose to show the Bruce/Talia scene in TDKR unfolding supports this.

    Maybe I haven't watched Interstellar enough times, but I never really got a clear romantic vibe between Matthew's and Anne's characters - indeed, his decision at the end seem to originate out of a sense of camaraderie and duty. As such, that sex scene which was being mentioned earlier on really wouldn't have added anything to the relationship, imo. Looking back on the movie itself, I think it would've felt quite jarring and out of place.
     
  23. The Joker

    The Joker The Clown Prince of Crime

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    I can tell you with certainty that Hugo in the comics did not deduce Batman's identity. He discovered it by unmasking him, as you can see in the panel above. Its one of the fan favorite story arcs. From the 70's. Written by Steve Englehart. Strange then used the information to auction it to Joker, Penguin, and Rupert Thorne. Its what the episode 'The Strange secret of Bruce Wayne' in BTAS is based on.

    In the Arkham games, they never give us any details about how Strange deduced Batman's identity. All we're told is he went to Ra's Al Ghul with the info, who then gave him the chance to prove his worth by financing his Arkham City plan.
     
  24. BaelaTargaryen

    BaelaTargaryen Registered

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    'The Dark Knight' dominated the #fav7films hashtag on Twitter

    "LOS ANGELES — It kicked off early in the morning, quickly climbed to the top of U.S. trending topics and had serious legs: The hashtag #fav7films dominated Twitter on Monday as users in the tens of thousands — from regular Janes and Joes to the top film critics — listed their seven favorite movies of all time.

    The winner, in a squeaker: The Dark Knight.

    Christopher Nolan's batsterpiece was mentioned 5,056 times between 5 a.m. and 7 p.m. ET on Monday, more than any film, according to social media research film and digital media consultancy Fizziology, which says the hashtag was used nearly 100,000 times during that span.

    Mashable asked our friends at the firm — an official Twitter partner that's been providing social-listening intel to Hollywood studios for several years now — to dig into the trend to see what they could find.

    The top 15
    1. The Dark Knight: 5,056
    2. Pulp Fiction: 4,966
    3. Shawshank Redemption: 4,910
    4. Empire Strikes Back: 4,772
    5. The Godfather* (all films): 4,604
    6. Goodfellas: 3,877
    7. Alien* (all films): 3,730
    8. Fight Club: 3,574
    9. Harry Potter* (all films): 2,757
    10. Jaws*: 2,622
    11. Forrest Gump*: 2,530
    12. Jurassic Park*: 2,356
    13. Blade Runner: 1,862
    14. The Big Lebowski: 1,860
    15 Rocky* (all films): 1,807

    *With films like Godfather, Harry Potter and Alien, people were more likely to group the films together, or not specify a certain favorite in the franchise. But with the Star Wars films, people specifically called out Empire Strikes Back.

    Curious trends

    Casablanca was the most cited movie before 1970

    Space Jam was mentioned on more top 7 lists than Annie Hall

    Suicide Squad saw more mentions than The Force Awakens

    The top animated film was Up

    Finding Nemo was on 3x more lists than Finding Dory

    The Room (not Room), a cult hit for being perhaps the worst movie ever, saw more mentions than Oscar winners A Beautiful Mind, Spotlight and 12 Years a Slave."
     
  25. The Joker

    The Joker The Clown Prince of Crime

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    Fantastic :up:

    Said it before, and I'll say it again, TDK has longevity and staying power. 8 years later and it still tops polls like this beating heavy hitters like The Godfather, The Empire Strikes Back, and The Shawshank Redemption.
     
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