BvS Ben Affleck IS Batman - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 39

[The Guard]

Bruce did plenty of detective work in this film. He researched, engaged in surveillance, followed up on various leads, put the pieces together and learned things.

Those things are the essence of detective work. Real detective work is not flashy, nor is it all that difficult if you know the procedures (former Special Investigator here). "Detective work" is a fancy term for investigating the details of something. People just want to see the Sherlock Holmes-style deductive reasoning that is so popular with the character. And that's fine, but that sort of story is more suited to say, his Arkham villains.

Someone said it took Bruce a while to figure out that the White Portuguese wasn't a man, but a ship. But I'm pretty sure Bruce knew for a while. He also knew that the cargo it was carrying wasn't a dirty bomb for a while, which is why he went after it in the first place. He was lying to Alfred about what the "WP" was and what it was carrying in order to throw him off the scent of his investigation, which was going on under Alfred's nose, and the film makes that apparent in a sequence between the two of them. When Alfred finally calls him out on lying, Bruce flat out comes right out and says "The White Portuguese isn't a man. It's a ship." He knew for some time. He just didn't know where it was coming from and where it's cargo would be.

As for the end, I question whether people understand that the "Martha" moment is less about Bruce realizing that Clark is more human than he thought and reacting because of that, and more about Bruce himself realizing how broken he has become, and how far gone he is, that he is about to kill someone just for potentially being a threat.

While Superman's plea to save his mother is obviously intended to show his humanity, the lion's share of Batman's reaction is about recognizing his OWN inhumanity.

I don't think it's a question of Bruce thinking Superman is absolutely no threat; this is solved later by proxy and when he sees how far Superman is willing to go for humanity. It's a question of Bruce realizing that he himself has gone too far into his sort of mad rage.

 

[matt47]

lol yeah I think most people think that he isn't doing detective work unless he is carrying a flash light.

 

[Travesty]

He did a lot of detective work in this, as both Bruce and Bats. He was basically investigating the entire movie, other than his fight with Superman and then Doomsday.

 

[matt47]

He did a lot of detective work in this, as both Bruce and Bats. He was basically investigating the entire movie, other than his fight with Superman and then Doomsday.

Yeah it was great to see him doing so much detective work.

 

[shauner111]

He did a lot of detective work in this, as both Bruce and Bats. He was basically investigating the entire movie, other than his fight with Superman and then Doomsday.

Bruce did plenty of detective work in this film. He researched, engaged in surveillance, followed up on various leads, put the pieces together and learned things.

Those things are the essence of detective work. Real detective work is not flashy, nor is it all that difficult if you know the procedures (former Special Investigator here). "Detective work" is a fancy term for investigating the details of something. People just want to see the Sherlock Holmes-style deductive reasoning that is so popular with the character. And that's fine, but that sort of story is more suited to say, his Arkham villains.

Someone said it took Bruce a while to figure out that the White Portuguese wasn't a man, but a ship. But I'm pretty sure Bruce knew for a while. He also knew that the cargo it was carrying wasn't a dirty bomb for a while, which is why he went after it in the first place. He was lying to Alfred about what the "WP" was and what it was carrying in order to throw him off the scent of his investigation, which was going on under Alfred's nose, and the film makes that apparent in a sequence between the two of them. When Alfred finally calls him out on lying, Bruce flat out comes right out and says "The White Portuguese isn't a man. It's a ship." He knew for some time. He just didn't know where it was coming from and where it's cargo would be.

As for the end, I question whether people understand that the "Martha" moment is less about Bruce realizing that Clark is more human than he thought and reacting because of that, and more about Bruce himself realizing how broken he has become, and how far gone he is, that he is about to kill someone just for potentially being a threat.

While Superman's plea to save his mother is obviously intended to show his humanity, the lion's share of Batman's reaction is about recognizing his OWN inhumanity.

I don't think it's a question of Bruce thinking Superman is absolutely no threat; this is solved later by proxy and when he sees how far Superman is willing to go for humanity. It's a question of Bruce realizing that he himself has gone too far into his sort of mad rage.

Care to list the things he did as a detective?

"He learned things". Very specific of you! Most of the things he learnt were through dreams, told to him. Or emails that he read from drives that he couldn't even get himself. Im sure we can all open an email and read it. Nice detective work.

He didn't know for a while that it was a ship. He searched it, and found out, with a surprised, intrigued look on his face. Like "ahhhh it's...a ship!"

Right, realizing how far gone he is when he's about to kill Superman. Which is tossed out the window when he kills a bunch of thugs after the big moment of realization you keep talking about. What a big realization he has there, that he's about to be a killer! Something he's been doing for a while already, and something he keeps doing. See how it would have more emotional impact if he wasn't killing or even branding, yet he was about to throw away his moral code for the first time ever by killing Superman? And then he realizes what that could do to him, so he doesn't? That's better writing. Instead, it means nothing because he killed before and he keeps killing after. The only time he really changes is after Superman dies. And that doesn't mean much either because Superman didn't have to die. Could have given Wonder Woman the spear since she knows how to use it better (most likely) and is not from Krypton. But if we focus on Bruce's part, OK im fine with that. Yet, he still goes to Luthor's prison after the funeral and "real realization", to threaten him with some good ol' branding. In prison folks. Which is where they kill you from BAT-BRANDING! It's not even a warning. He doesn't do it after all, but the intent is there. He gets pissed at Lex's remark, he goes to punch his face in with fire, only to punch the wall last second. Why even bring it if he's changed his ways?

There's not much of an arc at all. It's all over the place.

If this is all not lazy writing to you guys, i shiver to think what good writing is.

I'm convinced people don't know what detective work is on film in regards to Batman.

Also the Kilmer and Affleck comparison is spot on. Not near as dynamic or well acted with the energy and talent that Keaton and Bale brought.

Yup. Affleck and Kilmer had a lot in common. Solid. Some good scenes even. Potential for better if the rest of the crew pulled their weight more. Ben's efforts were not greater than Val's. Kilmer was underrated. When it comes to the stuff Ben can't control like his face, chin, height, suit, fighting...he did better. But with the stuff he can control like acting, intensity, subtlety, mannerisms, playing with the different personas, they were about even. Both of Kilmer's and Affleck's Batcaves and batmobile entrances/exits were even for me. I liked the characterization of Kilmer's Wayne/Batman more.

 

[craigdbfan]

No freaking way. Val Kilmer was alright but Affleck was completely beyond him. Completely.

Now if Kilmer was given better material I'm sure he would have killed it and landed himself among the greats despite looking nothing like Wayne/Batman but you'd be surprised how far looking and just living the part (which is what Affleck did more so than any of the other actors portraying him) goes.

Affleck made me believe he had been going at this for a while due to his comfortable swagger and nailing of the broken down Wayne operating on complacency and rage.

 

[Baneis8feettall]

Even though there might be enough detective work, at the end of the day movies are about feelings.

Movie didn't give the feeling Batman is world's greatest detective. He seemed as quickly triggered, easily manipulated, jump into action for noreason type of guy.

Same goes for other characters. Some of Lex's quotes and way of thinking are deep however it was buried under manic,weird,cartoony performance and bad story of the movie.

Same goes for Superman. He had moments of strong minded good hearted hero but buried under self questioning, brooding moments and generally depressed movie overall.

That's why when posters go philosophical about movie & characters, it sounds like much much better than what we actually got from the movie.

 

[matt47]

Even though there might be enough detective work, at the end of the day movies are about feelings.

Movie didn't give the feeling Batman is world's greatest detective. He seemed as quickly triggered, easily manipulated, jump into action for noreason type of guy.

Same goes for other characters. Some of Lex's quotes and way of thinking are deep however it was buried under manic,weird,cartoony performance and bad story of the movie.

Same goes for Superman. He had moments of strong minded good hearted hero but buried under self questioning, brooding moments and generally depressed movie overall.

That's why when posters go philosophical about movie & characters, it sounds like much much better than what we actually got from the movie.

Ugh man don't even go there. I just re-watched the Rooftop Scene with Lex. Every time he does that "mm" noise it feels like Snyder forces me to drink a sip of piss. I really like the dialogue he has, but it was delivered totally wrong. That goes for a lot of Lex. Just watched an interview with MTV and the interview asked Jesse what he thought of the criticisms and Jesse says he doesn't know about them, nor has he watched the movie because he doesn't like seeing himself on screen...
I suggest he watches the movie to see how out of tone he is with the rest of the movie.

 

[regwec]

I shall say it again, we are fortunate to have someone as patient, perceptive and reasonable as The Guard posting here. He is one of the few surviving members of a breed of posters we used to have that is now almost extinct.

 

[morningmimosa]

I shall say it again, we are fortunate to have someone as patient, perceptive and reasonably as The Guard posting here. He is one of the few surviving members of a breed of posters we used to have that is now almost extinct.

Definitely, his posts are one of the few reasons why I still visit the BvS boards from time to time

 

[FunkMiller]

I shall say it again, we are fortunate to have someone as patient, perceptive and reasonably as The Guard posting here. He is one of the few surviving members of a breed of posters we used to have that is now almost extinct.

I'm completely at odds with his opinion, but absolutely respect anyone who's prepared to stand their corner and make a detailed argument

 

[matt47]

I'm completely at odds with his opinion, but absolutely respect anyone who's prepared to stand their corner and make a detailed argument

Yeah he's been kicking my ass in arguments lately t:

 

[metaphysician]

He's best ignored.

It's a completey legitimate comparison. After the grief they got for the neck snapping in MOS I thought "okay he's got Batman in his film now, I guess after the grief he got for Zod's death in MOS the one thing Batman definitely won't be doing in this film is killing".

It really makes you wonder what goes through Zack Snyder's head, he doesn't help himself that's for sure.

I think the revelation that his dream movie project is The Fountainhead explains pretty much everything. On some level, I suspect he believes the Great should be free to do pretty much whatever they want, and the Small should be obligated to worship the Great.

 

[MrsKent26]

I think the revelation that his dream movie project is The Fountainhead explains pretty much everything. On some level, I suspect he believes the Great should be free to do pretty much whatever they want, and the Small should be obligated to worship the Great.

That's a bit presumptuous, don't you think? Perhaps he just likes BvS and defends it when he disagrees with complaints. There's nothing wrong with disagreeing with him, but I don't see the need to belittle his taste.

 

[The Joker]

Care to list the things he did as a detective?

"He learned things". Very specific of you! Most of the things he learnt were through dreams, told to him. Or emails that he read from drives that he couldn't even get himself. Im sure we can all open an email and read it. Nice detective work.

He didn't know for a while that it was a ship. He searched it, and found out, with a surprised, intrigued look on his face. Like "ahhhh it's...a ship!"

Right, realizing how far gone he is when he's about to kill Superman. Which is tossed out the window when he kills a bunch of thugs after the big moment of realization you keep talking about. What a big realization he has there, that he's about to be a killer! Something he's been doing for a while already, and something he keeps doing. See how it would have more emotional impact if he wasn't killing or even branding, yet he was about to throw away his moral code for the first time ever by killing Superman? And then he realizes what that could do to him, so he doesn't? That's better writing. Instead, it means nothing because he killed before and he keeps killing after. The only time he really changes is after Superman dies. And that doesn't mean much either because Superman didn't have to die. Could have given Wonder Woman the spear since she knows how to use it better (most likely) and is not from Krypton. But if we focus on Bruce's part, OK im fine with that. Yet, he still goes to Luthor's prison after the funeral and "real realization", to threaten him with some good ol' branding. In prison folks. Which is where they kill you from BAT-BRANDING! It's not even a warning. He doesn't do it after all, but the intent is there. He gets pissed at Lex's remark, he goes to punch his face in with fire, only to punch the wall last second. Why even bring it if he's changed his ways?

There's not much of an arc at all. It's all over the place.

Even though there might be enough detective work, at the end of the day movies are about feelings.

Movie didn't give the feeling Batman is world's greatest detective. He seemed as quickly triggered, easily manipulated, jump into action for noreason type of guy.

Same goes for other characters. Some of Lex's quotes and way of thinking are deep however it was buried under manic,weird,cartoony performance and bad story of the movie.

Same goes for Superman. He had moments of strong minded good hearted hero but buried under self questioning, brooding moments and generally depressed movie overall.

That's why when posters go philosophical about movie & characters, it sounds like much much better than what we actually got from the movie.

Well said

Although Luthor's way of thinking was anything but deep.

 

[metaphysician]

That's a bit presumptuous, don't you think? Perhaps he just likes BvS and defends it when he disagrees with complaints. There's nothing wrong with disagreeing with him, but I don't see the need to belittle his taste.

Um, what? I wasn't talking about anyone's tastes, I was talking about Zach Snyder's creative logic.

 

[stargazer]

Definitely, his posts are one of the few reasons why I still visit the BvS boards from time to time

agreed..

overall, I avoid forums because you simply can't change people's minds. It gets you down sometimes.

 

[regwec]

I use them much more sparingly than once I did, because they have unquestionably become much, much dumber. I do not know if it is because CBM fans now swim around in such a saturated genre, but very little thought or perception tends to flavour the debate now. The husk that remains is largely a cacophony of crudely asserted preference with cyclical citation of RT scores or box office takings as purported validation. Prior to the release of TDK I used to think that people here had stupid opinions. Now I perceive that many cannot even form their own opinions.

But, fortunately for us, we still have a few like The Guard.

 

[MrsKent26]

Um, what? I wasn't talking about anyone's tastes, I was talking about Zach Snyder's creative logic.

Disregard that message. I read your post too fast and thought you were talking about The Guard himself and not Snyder. At first glance, it seemed like you were belittling a poster's opinion. I apologize.

 

[Travesty]

I use them much more sparingly than once I did, because they have unquestionably become much, much dumber. I do not know if it is because CBM fans now swim around in such a saturated genre, but very little thought or perception tends to flavour the debate now. The husk that remains is largely a cacophony of crudely asserted preference with cyclical citation of RT scores or box office takings as purported validation. Prior to the release of TDK I used to think that people here had stupid opinions. Now I perceive that many cannot even form their own opinions.

Yeah, I was talking to someone about this the other day. It's not only things like RT, but now that twitter is so popular, you have people who wanna talk about what some random person said on twitter, than what opinion they have. And when you try to challenge their opinion, they just double down on this so called "proof" that you're wrong, cause someone else on the internet shares their views. There's so much more deflection than getting to the bedrock of ideas.

It's very strange.

 

[Knightfall]

Reminded me of Kilmer. Fine job, nothing more or less. Ben looks better, and has a better suit.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Kilmer is criminally over looked, he (for me) is the best live action Batman we've had. I feel he's been forgotten because of how terrible the movie was and the freakin nips. His Bruce Wayne wasn't so good but everything else from the voice to the mannerisms were pretty effen Batman.

Now i think Affleck looks better in the suit and definitely has the better suit to assist but he lets the suit do all the work I feel. From the voice modulater to even trying to look intimidating(that is when he wasn't looking confused and bewildered) and that part of it just makes me not really dig it. Not to mention the fact that everytime he tries to be intense as Batman he takes like fourty breaths a second(Nitpick yes but it was annoying..

Spoiler

Alfred--- the spear--- it's made of pure kryptonite--- it's back in Gotham-- maybe if I can pierce the skin----

and many other examples)

He was a good Bruce but I'm torn on who I like overall more between him and Bale. I mean Affleck for sure has a closer aesthetic to the character but I think all around even with the silly voice from TDK and TDKR (Begins was great) that Bales acting takes the cake. Like I said Affleck is not a bad actor, his Bruce was pretty good in certain scenes but most of the time I just couldn't get behind him.

I sincerely hope they ditch that damn Modulator though.. It really takes away from the performance and his voice wasn't terrible in the fight scene with him and supes when his modulater was messing up.

 

[Rodrigo90]

I loved Kilmer's interpretation. He had that tortured, inner-turmoil that I like in Batman. Don't often see it nowadays.

 

[The Joker]

overall, I avoid forums because you simply can't change people's minds.

If that's why you're on message boards, then I'll give you a tip right now, you're wasting your time. People will like what they like, hate what they hate, and nothing you say will change their mind on that. The only reason to be on message boards is for discussion. Not changing people's minds.

I sincerely hope they ditch that damn Modulator though.. It really takes away from the performance

I agree. He sounds like a cyborg.

 

[Saint]

Batman definitely did detective work in the film. That's more or less all he does in the first half. It just wasn't a very compelling "mystery" he was unfolding because this isn't a mystery film; the detective work he did was just a facet of the larger story. I suspect the "Batman didn't do enough detective work" complaint will persist until a legitimate mystery-driven film is made with the character. I would love a Batman whodunnit, but this was never going to be that.

In any case, it's not accurate to say he isn't portrayed as a detective. He is, however, portrayed as narrow minded, deeply stupid, and deliberately ignorant person.

 

[Saint]

The branding would have been fine if they hadn't added that "death sentence in prison" bit to bait Clark.

Mostly I just thought the branding was, well, dumb.

"Aww yeeeah, I'm gonna burn my mark into this guy."

"Why?"

"So you can see how many lines I'm crossing, just in case you didn't get the picture from my numerous killings and plot to murder Superman, and so at the end you can see how I stop doing it in case you weren't sure about what my trajectory is in the film based on all my dialogue and voice overs."

Really, he's not doing it for any specific personal reason; he's doing it to show the audience his cruelty, and because the plot requires Superman to be mad at him.

As for whether it's a death sentence, it's at least possible Lex arranges for the prison killing as part of his plan. It makes sense, considering he uses that very specific incident to bait Superman later.

However, whether or not the brand is a death sentence hardly matters; Batman kills people directly and plots to murder Superman. Whether he also brands people with the knowledge others might kill them doesn't shift his morality, or lack thereof, significantly.