BvS Ben Affleck IS Batman - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 39

[shauner111]

Batman definitely did detective work in the film. That's more or less all he does in the first half. It just wasn't a very compelling "mystery" he was unfolding because this isn't a mystery film; the detective work he did was just a facet of the larger story. I suspect the "Batman didn't do enough detective work" complaint will persist until a legitimate mystery-driven film is made with the character. I would love a Batman whodunnit, but this was never going to be that.

In any case, it's not accurate to say he isn't portrayed as a detective. He is, however, portrayed as narrow minded, deeply stupid, and deliberately ignorant person.

Maybe it can be said that he does detective work. He's just not good at it haha.

 

[Deserana]

Anybody else feel like that part where Bruce stares at the Robin costume and Batsuit will be put in a different point in the extended cut? It's placed at such an odd point in the film! Just before a party? This the kind of scene you show before Batman goes to lay some smackdown on The Joker for killing Robin. Not before Bruce makes a Joker pun.

 

[shauner111]

Anybody else feel like that part where Bruce stares at the Robin costume and Batsuit will be put in a different point in the extended cut? It's placed at such an odd point in the film! Just before a party? This the kind of scene you show before Batman goes to lay some smackdown on The Joker for killing Robin. Not before Bruce makes a Joker pun.

I would hope so, but i don't expect it to change. Im sure the editing will be a mess, still. Just some scenes stretched out and some new ones. A longer cut could help the pacing a bit. But i bet scenes will remain in strange order, with that stop and start feeling we got throughout. God, i hope i'm wrong.

 

[matt47]

Anybody else feel like that part where Bruce stares at the Robin costume and Batsuit will be put in a different point in the extended cut? It's placed at such an odd point in the film! Just before a party? This the kind of scene you show before Batman goes to lay some smackdown on The Joker for killing Robin. Not before Bruce makes a Joker pun.

I dunno aye. Because he is wearing the same suit he wears for the party.

 

[AnneFan]

Yeah, I was talking to someone about this the other day. It's not only things like RT, but now that twitter is so popular, you have people who wanna talk about what some random person said on twitter, than what opinion they have. And when you try to challenge their opinion, they just double down on this so called "proof" that you're wrong, cause someone else on the internet shares their views. There's so much more deflection than getting to the bedrock of ideas.

It's very strange.

It's stupid and annoying. It's about 'proving' opinions these days more than ever. "Twitter guy doesn't like the film, nor do other Twitter guys. So there. More people agree with my opinion. I'm in the 'right' crowd. The cool kids club. And you're not. You can like the movie, but it's bad. RT says so."

 

[The Joker]

Batman definitely did detective work in the film. That's more or less all he does in the first half. It just wasn't a very compelling "mystery" he was unfolding because this isn't a mystery film; the detective work he did was just a facet of the larger story. I suspect the "Batman didn't do enough detective work" complaint will persist until a legitimate mystery-driven film is made with the character. I would love a Batman whodunnit, but this was never going to be that.

In any case, it's not accurate to say he isn't portrayed as a detective. He is, however, portrayed as narrow minded, deeply stupid, and deliberately ignorant person.

Mostly I just thought the branding was, well, dumb.

"Aww yeeeah, I'm gonna burn my mark into this guy."

"Why?"

"So you can see how many lines I'm crossing, just in case you didn't get the picture from my numerous killings and plot to murder Superman, and so at the end you can see how I stop doing it in case you weren't sure about what my trajectory is in the film based on all my dialogue and voice overs."

Really, he's not doing it for any specific personal reason; he's doing it to show the audience his cruelty, and because the plot requires Superman to be mad at him.

As for whether it's a death sentence, it's at least possible Lex arranges for the prison killing as part of his plan. It makes sense, considering he uses that very specific incident to bait Superman later.

However, whether or not the brand is a death sentence hardly matters; Batman kills people directly and plots to murder Superman. Whether he also brands people with the knowledge others might kill them doesn't shift his morality, or lack thereof, significantly.

 

[Saint]

If BvS featured a clean-cut, morally-spotless Batman using reasonable and measured force in order to assist the GCPD in curtailing crime, why would Superman object?

Absolutely true. However, in the film's effort to justify this conflict, it creates a Batman whom Superman is absolutely right to condemn. A Batman Superman would rightly be compelled to bring to justice, if he did not [blackout]kick the bucket[/blackout] at the end of the film.

One of the disagreements I have with the "Batman is so lost that he's now okay with using lethal force on security guards" story is that I can only even begin to justify it as the last Batman story. The story of how Batman could never be Batman again.

One recalls this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GTmfnK6XDiA

That Batman had the decency to be disgusted by his actions. The Batman depicted in BVS is too far gone for that, which is why I suggest he's too far gone to continue being Batman.

 

[regwec]

He can continue to be Batman, but one who is morally compromised and, hopefully, repentant. I do not find that entirely objectionable. It would underpin a scene such as that which opens The Killing Joke, where Batman seeks to divert from a path trodden with The Joker that leads to mutually assured destruction, a different kind of poignancy.

 

[Saint]

He can continue to be Batman, but one who is morally compromised and, hopefully, repentant. I do not find that entirely objectionable.

That's fine; no one is required to have my experience.

It would underpin a scene such as that which opens The Killing Joke, where Batman seeks to divert from a path trodden with The Joker that leads to mutually assured destruction, a different kind of poignancy.

I have high hopes for Affleck's directorial effort, as I thoroughly enjoy his films--but if I'm honest, I half expect Snyder will have Batman continue killing his opponents in Justice League because it's totally awesome and/or completely ballin'. In which case, such a scene in Affleck's Batman film would read as absurd.

BVS is sufficiently vague as to whether killing still fits within the redeemed Batman's acceptable methods, and Snyder's comments on the matter run more along the lines of "I think it's okay because Batman's killed in these other stories," as opposed to "I think it's part of a larger narrative about the character in these films." I try not to hold creators to what they say when they're put on the spot in interviews, because it's rare to get a complete and truthful answer in those instances, but I do, honestly, believe that he doesn't think too much about these things.

He is, after all, the guy who said Batman "kills all the time" in The Dark Knight Returns. Unless one believes that the entire work is satire of Batman's history of flip flopping on the matter of killing (and that he guns down mutants with real bullets at the trash yard in a story where he also, quite centrally, claims not to kill), the position that he "kills all the time" in The Dark Knight Returns can only be understood as a fundamental misreading of the text.

Or, more simply: I don't trust Zack Snyder to tackle this material competently.

 

[matt47]

So it just hit that Affleck is directing a Batman movie.

 

[Cassandra Cain]

So it just hit that Affleck is directing a Batman movie.

I know, right!

I can't wait to see what Affleck dishes out. When is it coming out? After JL correct?

 

[shauner111]

Should be after Justice League. Hope it's good. Geoff Johns better not mess this up.

 

[Saint]

Hilariously, the tech manual reveals that Robin's weapon (partially seen with his costume in the case) is actually a goddamn halberd, which puts a different spin on the discussion of What Batman's rules may or may not have been in the past.

If there's a prequel, perhaps it could be called "All-Star Batman & Robin the Lethal Wonder". Or "Hateman & Murderbird".

Kind of puts a damper on my hopes of seeing an Under the Red Hood inspired story. Unless Jason is an outright villain, it would be difficult to portray Batman (who was okay with him carrying a battle axe and has a history of dropping bodies himself) as objecting to the Red Hood's method.

If we pretend the halberd never existed it can be framed as part of Batman's redemption story, I suppose--the way Bruce discouraged Dick from killing by virtue of his personal experience in Batman Forever.

 

[shauner111]

I'm pretty sure Robin was Dick Grayson, and he died. A kid who was trained to kill criminals if they got in his way. It also endangers Robin, since a criminal could use it on Robin. Which means, I don't have sympathy for this version of Bruce. He was an idiot for giving a kid a brutal weapon like that.

At this point, I would prefer a different story. Give us a flashback of Joker killing Robin but leave it at that.

 

[regwec]

I would simply disregard the "tech manual" thing.

 

[FunkMiller]

I would simply disregard the "tech manual" thing.

Would you disregard it if it confirmed your opinions of the movie?

 

[FunkMiller]

Hilariously, the tech manual reveals that Robin's weapon (partially seen with his costume in the case) is actually a goddamn halberd, which puts a different spin on the discussion of What Batman's rules may or may not have been in the past.

If there's a prequel, perhaps it could be called "All-Star Batman & Robin the Lethal Wonder". Or "Hateman & Murderbird".

Kind of puts a damper on my hopes of seeing an Under the Red Hood inspired story. Unless Jason is an outright villain, it would be difficult to portray Batman (who was okay with him carrying a battle axe and has a history of dropping bodies himself) as objecting to the Red Hood's method.

If we pretend the halberd never existed it can be framed as part of Batman's redemption story, I suppose--the way Bruce discouraged Dick from killing by virtue of his personal experience in Batman Forever.

It's so ****ing tone deaf it's not even funny. Give the teenage crusader trained by Batman a medieval battle axe. Because axes are cool!

 

[shauner111]

I would simply disregard the "tech manual" thing.

Im not surprised.,

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

So when will I see the threads dedicated to the deaths caused directly or indirectly by super heroes in other films for the last nine years? Just want the over the top opinions to be evenly spread out since everyone is being so fair minded and equally applying standards and all...

 

[regwec]

Would you disregard it if it confirmed your opinions of the movie?

Im not surprised.,

My point being, why pay it any regard? I didn't know of its existence until Saint referred to it, and I was no less content as a result.

 

[shauner111]

Why should we ignore it? It's showing us and explaining a specific weapon Robin used before his death. Which changes a lot and creates interesting discussion.

 

[regwec]

Well then, enjoy it if it makes you happy.

 

[Jekecy]

This is an ongoing discussion within the Star Wars universe; it’s often debated whether factual extensions originating within an officially released product/merchandise still counts as part of the film canon.

A more commonly found example is deleted scenes in an extended or unrated cut. Or even official novelizations.

In the case of this tech-manual, however one feels about Robin’s choice of weapon there is creative freedom moving forward in that it wasn’t easily identifiable. Should Snyder, or another director, choose to “retroactively” ignore it, they’re not betraying what has been established in the universe so far.

Fingers crossed they’ve heard the outcries.

 

[regwec]

I would argue that, if you find yourself worrying about that kind of thing, you should find something else to worry about. None of this is real. Enjoy the movie, if you can. Enjoy the merchandise, if you can. Don't let the existence of either dampen your experience of the other.

 

[Enriquespy]

Maybe he used the halberd nonlethaly.
Somehow.