Fantastic Four reborn! - Part 6

[Kelly]

I don't necessarily see anyone as wrong or right...I just see opinions. As long as they don't end up with personal swipes at each other, its all good in the end. People can be happy with the casting, not happy with the casting, give their opinion of why...I really don't care either way. If people will just stop taking everything personally, and stop the personal swipes in the discussion, then I'm happy. It's not a big conspiracy of sorts. It's a movie.

 

[Jennifer Walters]

You made this comment: That is a general statement in my opinion (you can disagree that is quite alright)...and he gave a generalization back calling it wrong, as his opinion... That is what I saw, if you disagree with that assessment, ok...

I'm not gonna push the subject any further. It's just whatever at this point.

But if we break down posts like this. Doesn't everything become a general statement? There has to be some kind of divide.

I was simply saying with my statement that there are quite a lot of people that will not be checking movie news and most likely not even know this movie exists until there is a trailer, etc.

The word ''wrong" didn't have to be thrown around to counter that or wasn't even something I was attempting to say to him, it didn't even seem like wrong in a sense of using it statistically in the way he said it. Just a general after statement was the way it read to me. As if he was just flat out saying ''I'm right. You're wrong."

 

[JP]

IM not trying to start a huge fight, but I actually have a serious question.
Would people care that much if they made black characters white? For instance if in the future War MAchine/Rhodey, Falcon, Luke Cage, etc. were turned white would the people who don't mind race changing be against it.

Because usually I dont mind race changes (Im not a fan of the Johnny Storm one though), but idk I admit that if one of those characters were changed white that I wouldnt like that.

Again not trying to start a fight, I just want to know other's opinions

Maria Hill. Katniss Everdeen. Fox from Wanted.

 

[Kelly]

I'm not gonna push the subject any further. It's just whatever at this point.

But if we break down posts like this. Doesn't everything become a general statement? There has to be some kind of divide.

I was simply saying with my statement that there are quite a lot of people that will not be checking movie news and most likely not even know this movie exists until their is a trailer, etc.

The word ''wrong" didn't have to be thrown around to counter that, it didn't even seem like wrong in a sense of using it statistically. Just a general after statement was the way it read to me. As if he was just flat out saying ''I'm right. You're wrong."

Well, these are words on a screen...we can't always decipher the exact tone, emotion, and reasoning behind every post. That is just how it is...so misunderstandings happen. That's really what I saw more than anything, along with a difference of opinion. BUT I NOW CAN, agree with this statement...

I was simply saying with my statement that there are quite a lot of people that will not be checking movie news and most likely not even know this movie exists until their is a trailer, etc.

And there is nothing behind the smile or wink, I promise...

 

[Jennifer Walters]

Maria Hill. Katniss Everdeen. Fox from Wanted.

And two of those are even main characters.

 

[spideyboy_1111]

I just think that a public poll on a front page of a major movie news source does show "Some" value and idea of a representation of a public poll. it may be off a little. But typicaly they're generally very close to more wide spread polls.

I guess we will find out (if) MBJ is cast, and we will see how the movie performs. However.. from my own information and opinion i've gathered. My money is on this being a terrible mistake. Polls show it, those who i have talked to who did not know anything about this movie being made and not caring about it already (show it), fan boy/nerd opinion showing it, and of course... the criticisms alone from Alba as Sue Storm are another indication (though smaller).

I just see a small minority actually being thrilled about it. And i feel for a franchise that already has a bunch of hurdles in front of it (doom, reboot to a less than stellar franchise in a short amount of time, etc...) the last thing this franchise needs is more splitting of it's fanbase. I think fanboys do indeed have a large impact because we are also the first ones to tell the general public what looks good and what doesnt. We tell our friends, we speak on message boards and blogs, we respond to news sources.. etc.

I think people underestimate us at times.

 

[MadVillainy]

Maria Hill. Katniss Everdeen. Fox from Wanted.

was Katniss race lifted??? In the book they said Olive skin but i didnt think that it was different race

and as JustaBill said 2 werent main characters and idk about Fox because I hadnt even heard of the comic before the movie came out. And I ended up hating the comic so I didnt mind. But thats just me.

 

[Eddie]

... Katniss is said to have an olive complexion (olive complexions can actually be quite fair) and Maria Hill has not traditionally been drawn with a very dark complexion. She has, however been drawn anywhere from fair to more of a deep tan. C'mon, guys, these examples are really reaching. I'm not sure that constantly throwing around the names Katniss and Maria Hill really adds much to this particular discussion.

 

[JP]

was Katniss race lifted??? In the book they said Olive skin but i didnt think that it was different race

and as JustaBill said 2 werent main characters and idk about Fox because I hadnt even heard of the comic before the movie came out. And I ended up hating the comic so I didnt mind. But thats just me.

I feel like it's a bit hypocritical to say "well, that's fine because it's a minor character" or "it's fine because I don't care about that character". There really is no difference in making Torch black, while making the three female characters I listed white.

Why? Because the color of their skin has little effect on their character traits and personalities (though arguments can and have been made for Katniss).

 

[Jennifer Walters]

There's a huge huge huge huge difference in the Jessica Alba situation and this situation.

I don't even know why people are comparing them other than the fact it was color blind casting.

 

[Kelly]

There's a huge huge huge huge difference in the Jessica Alba situation and this situation.

I don't even know why people are comparing them other than the fact it was color blind casting.

I think I was the one that brought that up, and I wasn't thinking about race at all...

I was simply reminding LS of how he was totally against her casting at the beginning...that was my reason, not race, eye color or hair color.

And, I don't think it was color blind casting at all....she was the hot commodity at the moment, and as in many cases, the "hot commodity" gets the job over the better casting. This coming from Albafan. ; )

 

[spideyboy_1111]

I feel like it's a bit hypocritical to say "well, that's fine because it's a minor character" or "it's fine because I don't care about that character". There really is no difference in making Torch black, while making the three female characters I listed white.

Why? Because the color of their skin has little effect on their character traits and personalities (though arguments can and have been made for Katniss).

ive said it before, but 90% of the time there are often stereotypical aspects or mannerisms to a character brought over to a race swap. I can see it in Fury, and Kingpin. Hemidal isn't a really good example because it's not like he had a personality or gave any lines either. I think for a character like johnny storm, he probably wont be a "white washed black actor" I think we'd get a relatively new take on johnny storm that most of us arn't really ok with. (that's what i dislike the most anyway (and no, that doesn't mean i think he's going to be "ghetto-fied" either... ) I just think there are always (if not very slight) racial differences that at times are indeed carried over.

And again, for me this still screams "change for the sake of change" because there's plenty of good, if not better actors than MBJ out their who would be better suited for the part.

 

[spideyboy_1111]

There's a huge huge huge huge difference in the Jessica Alba situation and this situation.

I don't even know why people are comparing them other than the fact it was color blind casting.

because there were MANY people not just commenting on her acting... but completely upset they cast a latino actress in a white role. That's the correlation. I also said it was a smaller one

 

[JP]

ive said it before, but 90% of the time there are often stereotypical aspects or mannerisms to a character brought over to a race swap. I can see it in Fury, and Kingpin. Hemidal isn't a really good example because it's not like he had a personality or gave any lines either. I think for a character like johnny storm, he probably wont be a "white washed black actor" I think we'd get a relatively new take on johnny storm that most of us arn't really ok with. (that's what i dislike the most anyway (and no, that doesn't mean i think he's going to be "ghetto-fied" either... ) I just think there are always (if not very slight) racial differences that at times are indeed carried over.

And again, for me this still screams "change for the sake of change" because there's plenty of good, if not better actors than MBJ out their who would be better suited for the part.

Oh, that's completely sound, and I would hate it if they did it. But I don't yet have enough evidence to support that concern at this point. MBJ pretty much played Johnny in Chronically, and it wasn't some Michael Bay interpretation of the character, either.

 

[Eddie]

Oh, that's completely sound, and I would hate it if they did it. But I don't yet have enough evidence to support that concern at this point. MBJ pretty much played Johnny in Chronically, and it wasn't some Michael Bay interpretation of the character, either.

TBH, one of my biggest problems with the casting rumor is just what you said here. I feel like I've already seen this before in Chronicle. I'd actually be fine with MBJ in this franchise, but I'd like to see him play a different character. I'd actually be pretty happy if he was cast as Super Skrull (villains are more fun to play, plus he'd still get to "flame on", as well as use other powers), or wait for part three and bring him in as the Silver Surfer.

 

[spideyboy_1111]

TBH, one of my biggest problems with the casting rumor is just what you said here. I feel like I've already seen this before in Chronicle. I'd actually be fine with MBJ in this franchise, but I'd like to see him play a different character. I'd actually be pretty happy if he was cast as Super Skrull (villains are more fun to play, plus he'd still get to "flame on", as well as use other powers), or wait for part three and bring him in as the Silver Surfer.

Oh that really is a great idea. Id love to see him as the super skull

 

[batdude]

I'm against this Johnny Storm casting. I 'd really rather have true to the comic blond Johnny. I suppose I might change my mind if they had a black Sue too. but it doesn't look like they are doing that. Johnny and Sue have to look like they are related. this is not the new version of 90210. these are characters created by Stan Lee and Jack Kirby after all. and should be treated as such.

 

[Eddie]

Oh that really is a great idea. Id love to see him as the super skull

That's been my thinking ever since this rumor got started. Admittedly I'm a bit biased, as I've wanted Skrulls as the villains since the moment I heard this movie was in development. A Fantastic Four vs Super Skrull battle could be amazing on screen. The Fantastic Four comics are about family. Four people working together to defeat one invader with their collective powers could be a great climax for the origin story.

 

[cronosred]

Maria Hill. Katniss Everdeen. Fox from Wanted.

People were upset over the casting of white actors in Dragonball and The Last Airbender.

 

[Lightning Strykez!]

would you guys actually not see this movie if jordan were cast serious question??

I'm one of the biggest Fantastic Four fans on this site. And I would certainly skip that s*** just to demonstrate my disgust for such a blatant disregard for the material. That said, I don't believe Marvel would be foolish enough to perform such a silly act of sacrilege.

 

[Lightning Strykez!]

Well, lets back up for just a second...


Let's take Jessica Alba for instance. You were one of my first friends on here, even though I had the SN Albafan you didn't automatically place me in a category of fans, nor did I automatically call you a "weird fanboy purist who was simply against Latinos....BECAUSE I knew that truly wasn't where you were coming from)...you were EXTREMELY against her casting on here and on IMDB. BUT......you were open minded enough to wait and see how things played out. I for one was extremely shocked at her casting as well, mainly because I thought that there were others that IMO would be better.

So, I understood your thoughts as well, and we talked about it a lot. You ended up moving over to the idea of her playing the part....and was even fine with her performance, even though it wasn't earth shattering good, but we agreed there were far bigger problems with the 2 movies than her portrayal of Sue.

I understand that the fans of this young man are excited about his possible casting, but we all have to step back for a second, take a breather and take the venom out of our posts and realize that really ALL EVERYONE WANTS, is a great F4 movie and build from that....

We have difference of opinions, and that is perfectly ok...it would be pretty boring if we all agreed. BUT....lets all wait, see what happens, we will probably have more info around Comic Con....and IF THIS YOUNG MAN is cast, then we will go with that...if he isn't and someone is cast that is more the "visual" of Johnny (for lack of a better term) and is the favorite of others, then so be it.

But you remember those days LS, and a lot will happen in the coming months.

I think we all need to sit back relax, and realize we all just want an awesome movie and the only way we are going to know for sure that that is what we got is when the movie comes out and we go and see it for ourselves. My hope above all else is that we get a Johnny that is as good, or better than Chris Evans portrayal.

My patience for such a dramatic change in this case would be far different. In 2004 they at least made an effort to make Jessica Alba look like Susan Storm. I definitely remember those days, and if you recall, my anger only subsided after they released that first still of the actress in costume. It was always a stretch and in the end I think they made an exotically gorgeous actress look weird and plastic. And she never looked like Chris Evans' sister. Ever.

In this situation, they would not be even making such an effort, unless they'd be doing the Michael Jackson treatment, and that would be a total waste of time and budget. I mean, what would be the point? Johnny Storm is an A-List Marvel Character--he's not a Nick Fury or Alicia Masters where changing his skin color wouldn't be quite as controversial. There are far more effective ways to add diversity to this film's main cast.

Bottom line for me is this: We've never got a proper Fantastic Four treatment. Here we have an opportunity to "right the ship" as it were. They've already tried to cast an actress of color to play a WASP character. It was an epic failure. Have they not learned?

 

[Lightning Strykez!]

See this is what I personally don't get.

Why is it okay if you're putting the minority actor in a tiny minuscule role?

But give them a big role? And it's bad. Who cares if they fit the role. Whoa back up? It's a bad decision.

Lord knows minority actors have a hard enough time as is getting roles. If some of you were casting agents they'd never rise to stardom at all.

P.S.: Also I'd wager as fans of comics we often are far to close to a character and over estimate who is ''iconic" as a character and who isn't as well.

Spider-Man, Superman, Batman, Captain America, even Iron Man now? Sure.

Human Torch? Ehhhhhhhhhhhh. Not too much outside of our circle.

I really can't agree with your post Billy. The Fantastic Four are Marvel's original First Family--literally. How are you figuring that Johnny Storm is not iconic? And it's not like FOX's first two FF films came out 20 years ago--arguably the most memorable part of those films was the Human Torch and the way Chris Evans portrayed him. Today's audiences are waaaay more aware of FF--more so than ever before. So between that international cinematic exposure and decades of prominence in print I can't figure out your reasoning here on Johnny's stature in Marvel.

As far as casting more characters of color--I agree with you...I'm all for that. But casting blond haired Johnny Storm as a hip, afro-rocking black guy is not the way to go. [sarcasm abounds] Why not start with getting Marvel's Storm right? Last I checked she's one of the top iconic Marvel heroines of all time, and she is still lacking. We don't have T'Challa (Black Panther) or Bishop (yet) or many other black characters on the silver screen yet. Why not start with them first?

 

[Lightning Strykez!]

I feel like it's a bit hypocritical to say "well, that's fine because it's a minor character" or "it's fine because I don't care about that character". There really is no difference in making Torch black, while making the three female characters I listed white.

Why? Because the color of their skin has little effect on their character traits and personalities (though arguments can and have been made for Katniss).

I really mean no offense by what I'm about to say (because you know I adore you JP)...but that's some serious bull spit. And while I don't think you truly believe that, in the interest of debating fairly, let's just indulge it and build on your train thought for a moment, shall we? Let's say that FOX was going to reboot the X-Men in 2016 and they decided to cast this young lady...

...in the role of Jean Grey.

Now, do you mean to tell me you'd be okay with that? Seriously? Jean--who's been consistently portrayed since the 1960s as a svelte, gorgeous redhead--now being played by an Oscar nominated, obese actress of color. You'd be in favor of that? I mean, after all, to borrow from your words Jean Grey's skin has little effect on her character traits and personality...riiiiiiggght?

Can you imagine Gabourey rise from the waters screaming "I am no longer the white redhead you knew!"

Come the hell on.

The example I've posted above is hardly an "extreme one". Blind color casting is wonderful. But these films are based on books that people read. These books are not simply literary novels where the readers' imagination is needed to "picture" a character in their mind's eye--no, the characters are DRAWN FOR US. Down through the decades and from one set of artists/writers to the next, Johnny Storm has been CONSISTENTLY drawn the same way. That means there are expectations that must be reasonably met for readers.

There's a huge huge huge huge difference in the Jessica Alba situation and this situation.

I don't even know why people are comparing them other than the fact it was color blind casting.

Sorry, but there is zero difference between the two situations. The arguments in 2004 was that casting Jessica Alba as Susan Storm was unnecessary considering the ample options that were available at the time. From Charlize Theron to Rachel McAdams there were plenty of white actresses that could have done the role justice. FOX chose to put themselves-and Jessica Alba--through all this unnecessary silliness to make her look like something she wasn't, and for what? What did it achieve?

Kelly was right in that Jessica was the "it" actress of the time, but they also were hoping to bring in diverse audiences with her casting, particularly the Latinto viewing audiences. In the end, they made Johnny Storm a brunette because they were simply laughable looking as "brother and sister."

It was a dumb move then. And it'd be a dumb move again.

 

[Eddie]

How in the world is the Human Torch not iconic? There was a time when he was basically the equivalent of modern day Wolverine in terms of popularity. The Human Torch was so popular that his television rights were actually sold separately from the FF at one time. He might not be the hot thing at the moment (yes, I know that was lame), but he's still one of Marvel's most popular heroes all time. Until 2008 he was far more iconic than Iron Man, for example. There's a reason that the first Marvel Team-Up issue was a Spidey/Torch outing. They were two of the most popular Marvel heroes at that time.

 

[Lightning Strykez!]

How in the world is the Human Torch not iconic? There was a time when he was basically the equivalent of modern day Wolverine in terms of popularity. The Human Torch was so popular that his television rights were actually sold separately from the FF at one time. He might not be the hot thing at the moment (yes, I know that was lame), but he's still one of Marvel's most popular heroes all time. Until 2008 he was far more iconic than Iron Man, for example. There's a reason that the first Marvel Team-Up issue was a Spidey/Torch outing. They were two of the most popular Marvel heroes at that time.

You're right on. To suggest the Human Torch isn't an iconic face of Marvel is just...I don't even know...historically ignorant?

Sometimes I feel like some users here read what the general consensus is of the posting community and then make off-the-wall statements or defenses just for the sheer purpose of going opposite of mainstream thinking. There's nothing wrong with that in itself, provided those differences of opinion are not completely preposterous and out of touch with reality.