The Dark Knight Rises The TDKR General Discussion Thread - - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 145

[shauner111]

I was just going to say that I interpreted the "we won" the same way. It seems to be referring to the Dent Act. The lie was the gamble. The law being passed was the payoff/victory.

Mind you, it doesn't mean Bruce did a thing as Batman before the legislation was passed. But to me indicates that he hadn't 100% mentally decided to hang it all up until the bill was passed. "The Batman wasn't needed anymore."

It's an important distinction to make because I don't think Batman was necessarily aware that he'd be heading for a long retirement when he took the blame in TDK.

But Blake speaks of Batman vanishing, last being seen "the night of Dent's murder." I don't see how you can have it both ways. He either vanishes the night of Dent's murder or the day the Dent Act was passed.

Though the film tries to have it both ways, I guess.

It's speculation on their part. A person seems to have vanished if they never saw them again, no confirmed sightings but that doesn't mean it's true. There's actually no proof from Blake or anybody that he indeed disappeared. Yeah, to them he vanished but why couldn't that be a false statement?

The mob was already crippled, because The Joker burned all their money. That was shown to us before TDK even ended. All Gordon had to do is round them up.

And it's a bit silly to try and think about when the Dent Act could've realistically been put into place, when the Act itself is highly unrealistic. And again, who cares, cause the mob was already crippled. The Dent Act could've gone up a year later, and the mob still wouldn't have been stable.

Again, if there were unconfirmed sightings, that would mean that Batman never truly vanished. Even if the sightings were true or not, it wouldn't lend itself to Batman vanishing, in fact, it would do the complete opposite of that.

Plus, you're making it out like Blake saw Batman ride out himself after the Dent fall, when he didn't, cause he was still a kid at the time. Even as a kid, Blake knew that Batman ceased to exist.

Whether it's unrealistic or not, it's irrelevant.

You remember last night? The way you talked down to people like you had to spell things out for them to make em understand?? Well now im putting you in the same position. How many times do I have to say that just because Blake said he vanished, it doesn't mean it's pure fact that he never appeared again. How would anybody know for sure that Batman wasn't out there lurking in the shadows, even if there were sighting, they could have been unconfirmed. TheShape, me, and a handful of others told you this and you still don't take it in. If what you say is true, and people didn't even see a sighting (unconfirmed), then he's a damn ninja dude. He can get away with not being seen.

Blake is just using the term like "When Batman disappeared that night, y'know when none of us ever saw him again". That actually means nothing. If a drug lord is never to be found again, he flees a city according to the police, they never saw him again and neither did most people so to them he's vanished...but does that automatically mean it's true? Could he have been hiding out in the city the whole time, never getting caught? Sure.

Your argument just doesn't hold much water to me.

 

[BatLobster]

I think we all should all stop, get drunk, then resume this discussion. It'd be good times.

 

[Ryan]

I think we all should all stop, get drunk, then resume this discussion. It'd be good times.

Here, here!

 

[ThePhantasm]

I was under the impression that most of the participants in this conversation were already drunk...

 

[Anno_Domini]

Yup, which doesn't leave room for suspicion of any kind. I guess now "disappeared" means "sightings".

Definition of VANISH

intransitive verb
1
a : to pass quickly from sight : disappear
b : to pass completely from existence

2
: to assume the value zero

transitive verb
: to cause to disappear

"FROM SIGHT".

So...to the eye, Batman had vanished, but that may not have been the case...

thanks for making my point, Trav

 

[shauner111]

Haha. I bet if we all got wasted together it would be hilarious. We would argue about Batman for 3 hours then we'd be embracing by the end of the night.

 

[Anno_Domini]

If someone like the Batman "vanished" from the public eye, would we all automatically assume the dude retired? Nope, especially not right away and not after this person had been outed as a killer. Think back to when that cop killer (Dorner) was on the loose in LA recently. Literally hundreds of people were calling in, claiming (and often believing) they had sighted this man. I don't think anyone really did. At least no one reported anything substantial or "confirmed" until this guy took some people hostage or stole a car or some **** like that. He was obviously eventually cornered and killed, but if he was never seen again, would all of us have just assumed he gave up his tirade right away? I think time would need to pass before the paranoia subsided.

The script identifies the night Dent died as the last "confirmed" sighting of the Batman because it was. Dozens of cops literally watched his cape billow as he ran away from them into the night. These officers could easily corroborate each other's stories, that they saw the Batman. From that point on, however, I'd imagine there would be plenty of unsubstantiated claims coming from Gotham citizens while this cop killer (Batman) was still on the loose. "911? I was walking home tonight and I swear that I saw the Batman in an alley down here"...**** like that. Happens all the time in reality. People are paranoid when large-scale tragedies hit. I'd imagine the situation would be even more extreme if we were talking about a masked vigilante who had become somewhat of a "myth". These unsubstantiated claims clearly are different than "confirmed sightings".

So while WE know Batman really did hang it all up after that, it's safe to safe citizens of Gotham did not, at least not until things died down. I don't understand what's so crazy about georgec's speculation. Seems completely logical, if you stop focusing on semantics.

Loving all the agreement I've been reading guys. Keep it up! t:

 

[Anno_Domini]

Haha. I bet if we all got wasted together it would be hilarious. We would argue about Batman for 3 hours then we'd be embracing by the end of the night.

When you say embrace, what exactly do you mean???

 

[ThePhantasm]

The problem here isn't about what would have logically happened, I think we are all in agreement there. The problem is that it doesn't match up with what the film tries to make us believe. And it boils down to the fact that Nolan didn't want anyone else touching his universe so he attempted to leave no "gaps" where Bruce could have been or could return to be Batman.

 

[The Joker]

The problem here isn't about what would have logically happened, I think we are all in agreement there. The problem is that it doesn't match up with what the film tries to make us believe. And it boils down to the fact that Nolan didn't want anyone else touching his universe so he attempted to leave no "gaps" where Bruce could have been or could return to be Batman.

That and Nolan himself said Batman hung up the cape for those 8 years.

 

[Anno_Domini]

You're overanalyzing one thing Nolan said, imo...he would never say "he retired a year after The Dark Knight's events". Bringing up the eight year gap is just to clarify the time gap between the two films and that he retired, lol.

 

[ThePhantasm]

Honestly I think we are taking what Nolan and the movie say at face value. It is you who are trying to leave room in all these quotes for further Batman activity. Our reading of the quotes is the more obvious one.

 

[The Joker]

Oh look, Anno Domini of all people is now not only accusing us of over analyzing, but he's trying to speak on Nolan's behalf, too.

 

[Travesty]

You remember last night? The way you talked down to people like you had to spell things out for them to make em understand?? Well now im putting you in the same position. How many times do I have to say that just because Blake said he vanished, it doesn't mean it's pure fact that he never appeared again. How would anybody know for sure that Batman wasn't out there lurking in the shadows, even if there were sighting, they could have been unconfirmed. TheShape, me, and a handful of others told you this and you still don't take it in.

Yeah, and a handful of others were/are telling you the opposite. What's your point, you haven't even come close to making any kind of sense.

Again, you keep saying there could be sightings, yet, Batman had vanished. I'm sorry, but that doesn't make sense. That totally contradicts itself. If there were any kind of sightings(confirmed or unconfirmed), that lends itself to the possibility of Batman being around, which means, to that particular possibility, he never vanished. Either you're discounting what Blake said(which you are), or you're not making sense on purpose(which I can't tell if you are).

And what are you spelling out for me, now? So now we're not to believe the words of a character within a movie(Blake), but we're to believe your assumptions, based on no evidence whatsoever?

If what you say is true, and people didn't even see a sighting (unconfirmed), then he's a damn ninja dude. He can get away with not being seen.

Ok, this right here, what does this even mean? What is your definition of "unconfirmed sighting"? Because it sounds to me like you're saying that if people don't see a sighting(which doesn't make sense), that it is unconfirmed. That's not how it works. How can someone not see a sighting?

Blake is just using the term like "When Batman disappeared that night, y'know when none of us ever saw him again". That actually means nothing. If a drug lord is never to be found again, he flees a city according to the police, they never saw him again and neither did most people so to them he's vanished...but does that automatically mean it's true? Could he have been hiding out in the city the whole time, never getting caught?

Ummmm, sure, as long as there were no sightings(confirmed or unconfirmed) of said individual, then yes, it would make sense that someone vanished, cause once again, they were never seen again.

"FROM SIGHT".

So...to the eye, Batman had vanished, but that may not have been the case...

thanks for making my point, Trav

What is your point? "From sight": which means nobody would be able to have a sighting.

Now I'm wondering if you guys know what the definition of "sighting" is.

"So to the eye, Batman had vanished, but that may not have been the case"...."so to the eye, Batman had vanished"....."so to the eye".

 

[Anno_Domini]

Honestly I think we are taking what Nolan and the movie say at face value. It is you who are trying to leave room in all these quotes for further Batman activity. Our reading of the quotes is the more obvious one.

But there is no face value of what Nolan or the film says regarding when exactly Bruce Wayne retired as Batman.

What Nolan brings up is the gap between the two films and that Bruce retired. What he mentions is the leg injury, but a leg injury where you have no cartilage is an injury that will only become worse over time and that is why it's at its worse by TDKR when he doesn't do anything for three years straight. Batman's been shot before and he has risen up in Batman Begins.

Blake says "last confirmed sighting" and what Daggett says ties up to the "confirmed sighting".

Oh look, Anno Domini of all people is now not only accusing us of over analyzing, but he's trying to speak on Nolan's behalf, too.

No, I've always accused you of such Joker, don't worry

 

[ThePhantasm]

Trav, I think what Anno is saying is that Batman was still active... but no one saw him with their eyes while he was active. Or something.

 

[Anno_Domini]

What is your point? "From sight": which means nobody would be able to have a sighting.

Now I'm wondering if you guys know what the definition of "sighting" is.

"So to the eye, Batman had vanished, but that may not have been the case"...."so to the eye, Batman had vanished"....."so to the eye".

 

[ThePhantasm]

But there is no face value of what Nolan or the film says regarding when exactly Bruce Wayne retired as Batman.

Yes there is. Blake explicitly mentions the night of Dent's murder. It sets the context of the discussion. Nothing in the film implies what you are saying. A face value reading comports with what we're saying.

 

[shauner111]

Good Lord Trav. Are you just trolling or something?? Vanished means to disappear from sight. Meaning, if Blake or nobody has seen him for 8 years then to their knowledge and opinion, he's vanished. That doesn't mean that Batman couldn't have been out there in the shadows, never getting caught. If there was a confirmed sighting of him then Blake wouldn't be saying that he vanished. It's fairly simple dude. He says he's vanished because there hasn't been any confirmed sightings in 8 years.

 

[Anno_Domini]

Yes there is. Blake explicitly mentions the night of Dent's murder. It sets the context of the discussion. Nothing in the film implies what you are saying. A face value reading comports with what we're saying.

The last confirmed sighting where he vanishes from sight. Nothing in that tells me Bruce quit that night, lol.

Good Lord Trav. Are you just trolling or something?? Vanished means to disappear from sight. Meaning, if Blake or nobody has seen him for 8 years then to their knowledge and opinion, he's vanished. That doesn't mean that Batman couldn't have been out there in the shadows, never getting caught. If there was a confirmed sighting of him then Blake wouldn't be saying that he vanished. It's fairly simple dude. He says he's vanished because there hasn't been any confirmed sightings in 8 years.

 

[ThePhantasm]

Good Lord Trav. Are you just trolling or something?? Vanished means to disappear from sight. Meaning, if Blake or nobody has seen him for 8 years then to their knowledge and opinion, he's vanished. That doesn't mean that Batman couldn't have been out there in the shadows, never getting caught. If there was a confirmed sighting of him then Blake wouldn't be saying that he vanished. It's fairly simple dude. He says he's vanished because there hasn't been any confirmed sightings in 8 years.

So Batman was out there in the shadows... just hiding not doing anything? What's the point of that?

If he was taking down criminals, then there were sightings, and he hadn't vanished. Why? Because Bats doesn't kill, so those criminals would still be around to tell (guess who?) the police about what happened.

Trav isn't trolling. He's being logical. You guys want an active Batman AND to have Batman "vanish" "from the eyes." Impossible.

 

[regwec]

This is getting pretty desperate. Everything in the movies points to Batman being absent for 8 years. There are numerous statements in the script to that effect, and supporting statements from the director. I'm sure we all agree that is unfortunate, but there is really no mandate for some alternative plot line to be imputed. You can reason that what everyone in the movie says is wrong, and that they just don't know the full facts. Fine, but that doesn't give you a stronger argument than it would for absolutely any other occurrence that may have happened 'off screen' between the movies.

Can anyone show me categorical evidence that Harvey Dent was meant to be dead? All we know is that everyone in TDKR said he was dead, and events stemmed from that fact. But they could have been wrong. Perhaps they just meant he died...inside.

 

[Anno_Domini]

If anyone cares to go to the very back....I am only saying Batman would be in the shadows watching the clean up of Gotham, and then finally retire and continue to watch from the Batcave.

Would he stick to the shadows? Yes. Because there is nothing for him to do and that's why he quit because he and Gordon "won".

But I do not believe he quit that night thinking Gotham was fine. He would watch over the city for a bit until he truly knows Gotham is safe(enter the Dent Act).

What's truly desperate is posters thinking something is of face value when it's not, haha. Nothing is clearly stamped away that Bruce Wayne quit that night but unlike some...I can say, think what you would like to believe. Let's see anyone on the other side of the fence say the same thing without any condescending remarks.

 

[Travesty]

Trav, I think what Anno is saying is that Batman was still active... but no one saw him with their eyes while he was active. Or something.

Yes, but this entire debate, and I mean, the ENTIRE debate stems from the fact of Batman sightings. How can people not see sightings?

Good Lord Trav. Are you just trolling or something?? Vanished means to disappear from sight.

Shauner, dude, then how could there be any kind of sightings?

Even with an unconfirmed sighting, people still have to see something. Whether it is confirmed or unconfirmed is another thing entirely.

 

[ThePhantasm]

If anyone cares to go to the very back....I am only saying Batman would be in the shadows watching the clean up of Gotham, and then finally retire and continue to watch from the Batcave.

Would he stick to the shadows? Yes. Because there is nothing for him to do and that's why he quit because he and Gordon "won".

Wouldn't it be easier just to watch from the Batcave to begin with? While Bats is in "the shadows" he can only survey one location at a time, unlike in TDK where he has cameras on Rachel and other people at various locations on the computer.

I honestly don't get the merits of arguing so stridently for an inactive Batman just passively sitting in the shadows for a year while he waits on Gotham to be cleaned up. I mean, who cares?