The Dark Knight Rises Why I think Rises will be better than TDK

[Sharkboy]

Just because 3 films don't get successively better or just because they don't have the same quality doesn't mean they can't form an overall great trilogy.

Perfect is too strong a word to use objectively. I can see why one would think Toy Story is perfect, or SW, or Indy, or LotR (that, not so much). Just as I could see why someone would think the Nolan Batman trilogy will be perfect if TDKR turns out to be good. But the difference in quality between BB and TDK can be used as an argument to disqualify this trilogy as perfect, going by your logic.

BB was and still is a great film in it's own right, TDK was leaps and bounds better and that's fine because it's expected, it's the sequel! If they were honestly not aiming to make a film that's better than TDK (as in they weren't making the best film they possibly could) then the whole idea of TDKR would be redundant and pointless. It could be a great film by it's own right...but it will always be seen as dissapointing if it doesn't match up.

Is star wars a great trilogy? sure, but i wouldn't call it definitive....ROTJ barely matches to the first one let alone the second. The third film logically should be the best one.

 

[Gianakin_]

Which logic dictates it should be the best one?

 

[Sharkboy]

Return of the Jedi was also really mediocre

It really was, people put the star wars films so so high up, but star wars is a good film, empire is a classic...and return of the jedi *apart from the beginning and the end* really couldn't hold a candle to much.

LOTR i never really considered it a trilogy anyway...its all one bloody film! (and what an amazing film it was)

 

[Gianakin_]

It really was, people put the star wars films so so high up,

See, that's where I disagree. Right there. What stops anyone from claiming the same thing about BB, or even the entire Nolan trilogy for that matter?

 

[Sharkboy]

Which logic dictates it should be the best one?

Why would you make a sequel knowing from the get go it would be inferior to the previous ones?

 

[Gianakin_]

Why would you make a sequel knowing from the get go it would be inferior to the previous ones?

So it's about good intentions. Suppose everyone has them. Half (or more) of them fail. There are levels of failure. There can be large drops in quality (SM2 to SM3) or small ones (Back to the Future 2 to Back to the Future 3). Does a trilogy fail in every case?

 

[Sharkboy]

So it's about good intentions. Suppose everyone has them. Half (or more) of them fail. There are levels of failure. There can be large drops in quality (SM2 to SM3) or small ones (Back to the Future 2 to Back to the Future 3). Does a trilogy fail in every case?

And my point is that TDKR will one of the few big budget tentpole trilogies not to fail in this regards? what is your issue here?

 

[Gianakin_]

And my point is that TDKR will one of the few big budget tentpole trilogies not to fail in this regards? what is your issue here?

My issue is that when RotJ was about to be made, they had the same (or similar) good intentions that Nolan has with this one. And my question is: If he fails, and you find TDKR to be worse than TDK, but not bad, will it not be a great trilogy?

 

[Sharkboy]

See, that's where I disagree. Right there. What stops anyone from claiming the same thing about BB, or even the entire Nolan trilogy for that matter?

Lemmie rephrase, people talk as if the original star wars trilogy is infallible, wheras the 3rd film (the climax, the culmination of all the hype, the sequel to the incredible 2nd film which was a sequel to the great first film, aka the film with the most expectation fell short) was it a great film...sure whatever floats your boat, but it's highly regarded as inferior to empire. To me when you go about making a sequel to the almighty empire strikes back and come up with return of the jedi, no matter what lenses you see it through...that is a failure, a failure i can't attribute to what is supposed to be a so called unbeatable trilogy.

Hence my logic if TDKR is better than TDK, they are successively better films, they succeeded in topping each great film. That to me would be a better trilogy.

 

[Gianakin_]

Hence my logic if TDKR is better than TDK, they are successively better films, they succeeded in topping each great film. That to me would be a better trilogy.

Cool, but if TDKR is worse than TDK, but not by much, will the trilogy curse still be there? Will this prevent Nolan's trilogy from being perfect or great?

 

[Sharkboy]

My issue is that when RotJ was about to be made, they had the same (or similar) good intentions that Nolan has with this one. And my question is: If he fails, and you find TDKR to be worse than TDK, but not bad, will it not be a great trilogy?

Again, I'll state, it's not about being a great trilogy, it's about being a definitive one, where despite the singular merits of each individual film, each film in the series is better than the last. Where the filmmakers have succeeded in topping themselves twice and meeting up with expectations each time. It's a rare thing in film trilogies to have that....great trilogies are all over the place, but that's not what im on about.

 

[Gianakin_]

Ok, I get you.

 

[Sharkboy]

Cool, but if TDKR is worse than TDK, but not by much, will the trilogy curse still be there? Will this prevent Nolan's trilogy from being perfect or great?

Well yeah...it could still be a great overall trilogy, but people will always be dissapointed by the third film, it will always be the one that never quite matched up to the benchmark of the second film. I'm always of the mind that you can have a great film absolutely ruined by a terrible third act. Which is kinda ironic considering both BB and TDK had weaker 3rd acts...but digress good writing and stellar endings both saved that.

Anyway...I'm fully expecting Rises to be better than TDK, there is a huge chance that it really won't match up to it, and that's fine, but i think as an audience we deserve to set our expectations high after a film like TDK.

 

[Patty]

I disagree, I don't think he'd even bother with a 3rd flick unless it was good. He and Goyer have something up their sleeves, and that's a fact.

 

[Frodo]

She's not good anywhere.

I thought she was good in Prison Break, but to each is own.

 

[El Payaso]

I honestly never thought comparing a Batman trilogy with, say, LOTR, Star Wars or - jesus - The Godfather and Toy Story was even thinkable.

One thing I'll say that many screenwriters say: if the end is good the whole story will feel good.

 

[Nevincer]

Happy new year my fellow brit batfans

 

[Patty]

Its already new years across the pond? Damn, I still got hours before I can get drunk and get stupid with fireworks.

 

[Sharkboy]

happy new year my fellow brit batfans

happy new year darkhunt!!!

 

[Sharkboy]

I honestly never thought comparing a Batman trilogy with, say, LOTR, Star Wars or - jesus - The Godfather and Toy Story was even thinkable.

One thing I'll say that many screenwriters say: if the end is good the whole story will feel good.

I never thought anyone could put toy story and the godfather in the same league in a sentence before...but here it is...and it feels incredibly normal and right, so yeah Batman belongs.

 

[Sharkboy]

I thought she was good in Prison Break, but to each is own.

when i thought her head was in a box...sure.

 

[Godzilla2014]

The Dark Knight was a great movie, of course, but no masterpiece. For all those who doubt that Rises can't top its predecessor, I wouldnt be so sure. I know, we barely know anything about this movie yet but I think its already sounding like a more interesting story. With TDK I felt like it focused more on joker rather than telling a rich, compelling story like Begins did. This movie has so much potential to be the best of the trilogy, with Nolan tying it back to Begins and making the series come full circle. I really feel like nolan has an incredible tale to tell to end the series.

Also, the cinematography looks fantastic so far, tons of great shots in the trailer. I really like the bleak and gritty feel to it, like the shot of Bane walking up to batman in the huge fight.. cannot wait

So I think with Rises it wont rely on a popular villain, but a flat out good story about Bruce/Batman. Not saying Bane wont be ****ing awesome, but I think the movie will be so much more than just Bane. What do you guys think?

Interesting points.

You're joking right?

I think whilst Begins' story in retrospect was fairly cookie-cutter, The Dark Knight had a story strong enough to stand up to some of the best Crime-Drama's out there.

Both the positive and negative of that film was the fact that it concentrated more on the story than Batman itself. Batman was more of an added bonus to a burgeoning film about escalation and crime.

Agreed.

This is why the Dark Knight Rises will be better:

aside from the story and themes of redemption and perhaps sacrifice, it'll be better because of this,

You have my attention.

TDK was a much richer and ambitious story than BB. BB, while great, is the superhero origin story. It follows the same beats as Spider-Man, Iron Man, Donner's Superman, etc. I think BB does it way better than those films, but it is still formulaic and keeps it centered on Bruce becoming a superhero.

TDK is a broader ensemble film about a city/society being put to the test of their moral convictions in the face of an existential threat (terrorism) and how far it can go without collapsing. Subtle? No, but it's dealing with big ideas. It is also driven as much by Harvey Dent as the Joker. His story is one of the classical tragic hero who rises to an apex and almost wins.....but then comes crashing down in the most painful way possible. That tragedy, coupled with him being part of a triumverant with Gordon and Batman, effects those characters and the ending in a profound way. The Joker is the existential anarchic catalyst for these choices they make.

It has a lot more meat than BB. My guess is TDKR will suffer in comparison for two reasons. The first is The Joker is Batman's most charismatic and iconic villain bar none and Ledger played him in a way that wowed everyone...even Oscar voters. The other is Harvey Dent's tragic arc is so clean and classical, that it provided a firm backbone for the film. Bane breaking Batman and turning Gotham into a war zone may be a bit harder to pull off so powerfully.

But at this point who really knows? TDKR doesn't come out for over seven months and we've all seen about 7-8 minutes worth of footage. It's way too early to say.

Completely agreed. The Dark Knight dives into territory that Batman Begins dipped its toe in, like the corruption in Gotham City.
In retrospect, Batman Begins starts as the story of one man's journey from a victim of crime to a champion of a downtrodden city against the corruption that holds it down, to said man trying to stop a madman from destroying the city.

The Dark Knight, on the other hand, starts as a superhero terrorist crime drama, and ends as one.

 

[Patty]

I just hope that Rises has HALF the story TDK did... if so, I'll be happy. I trust the team of Goyer/Nolan to do good tho.

 

[バット人]

I don't like thinking in terms of trilogies, I never have and I never will. I judge every film on it's own, even if they're part of a series. I've done it with Star Wars, Lord of the Rings, the Godfather and I'll continue to do it with Batman. For me, visually, thematically and tone wise Batman Begins is much too different when compared to TDK and TDKR (I imagine this will be the case between TDK and TDKR as well) for me to consider all three as part of this perfect, neatly bow wrapped trilogy.

I love Batman Begins for different reasons than The Dark Knight and vice versa. I've always had a problem viewing sequels as a "a continuation of a story" as I prefer them as a NEW story. There are always things in these types of films to take me out of the "canon" aspect of it all. One of the glaring, obvious ones was the transition from Katie Holmes to Maggie Gyllenhaal. That's enough right there to "spoil" a supposed trilogy. Begins feels and looks different from TDK and TDK feels and looks different from TDKR, as they should. One film was made for 2005, it's of that time. The other was in 2008 and it is of it's release as well. For me, there's too many gaps between these to care about a "trilogy" per se. They're unique Batman stories that I love and watch with one, different mindset per viewing. I've never been the type to "watch them in order".

I'm not concerned with the third film for the sake of trilogies (I'm quite turned off by this cliched "epic conclusion to the Dark Knight Legend" BS) but my one hope for TDKR is that it expands on what we've seen before, gives us something new and is genuinely a good flick. That's all I care about. If it delivers the above I'll be perfectly content, if not, I have Batman Begins and The Dark Knight, no worries.

 

[Patty]

Yeah that whole "epic conclusion" s**t sounded like a tag that the studio forced him into putting. It sounds cheap. I honestly didn't care for the title AT ALL at first but I'm starting to warm up to it.