The Shape
In the shadows
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- May 30, 2006
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I mean, I think you're projecting/speculating here a bit that Snyder wants to actually base the entire JL off of Watchmen (his Batman was nothing like Nite-Owl). As far as him having a hard-on for Batman acting like an ******* towards everyone, yeah, it's clear he has an affinity for Miller's version, but the use of that kind of Batman in BvS -- whether you (and others) like it or not, or even care at all -- did have a purpose within the story and Batman had a clearly defined character arc. Unlike Miller's Batman who is even older and ends his true "career" like that, it's pretty clear that this is a Batman who had recently entered this Miller-esque phase and seemingly comes out of it as a changed and more hopeful person.
If you don't trust Snyder to stick with this characterization and want to just believe it when you see it, that's cool. I'm not saying anybody has to trust Snyder or that he's great or any of that ********. I'm just saying that based on the way BvS ended in terms of Batman's character arc, I'd be pretty shocked if all of this was somehow ignored for the post-BvS films featuring Batman and he's shown to be the same kind of unhinged and hopeless person he was before coming into contact with Supes.
Also, the concept of the Justice League doesn't even lend itself to that kind of Batman. As far as the Knightmare vision, that should have no bearing on your thoughts about how Batman will act following BvS. For one, as you indicated, that might never happen since it seemed to be an alternate/potential future that may never happen at all, or a future that may never reach that point now that the JL is banding together. Either way, it seemed to be a pretty distant, apocalyptic future with most of mankind wiped out altogether so that's just a whole different ballgame than what we're talking about now.
I know the Martha moment has become a joke to many people, but it can't be denied that it carries meaning beyond "I won't kill you because our moms have the same name", and it does change him both internally and in terms of what he does immediately afterwards.
- It suddenly and dramatically changes his view of Superman. He had thought of him as nothing more than a potential alien threat, but then recognized the humanity within Superman (a common link of humanity between them) and also witnessed the fist selfless act from Superman (before his death), as he lay helpless and defeated but pleads for Batman to save another person's life.
- It literally causes him to change what he was doing, as he decides NOT to do the thing that he had been so set on doing for anywhere from a few weeks/months to 2 years (following the Metropolis incident).
- It causes him to think back to the defining moment in his life and reason why he ever became Batman in the first place, which was not to hunt seemingly good people who may or may not stop being good somewhere down the line, but to save people like 'Martha' who were powerless to save themselves, to prevent children from being orphaned, to stop real threats, etc.
- He then insists on saving Martha himself and rushes to save a life instead of doing what he had planned to do, which was to take a life
Mark Hughes summed up part of it nicely in one of his pieces:
As for Batman mowing down those vehicles as he raced to save Martha Kent, some people would argue that "it's possible they didn't die". But even if they were killed by the Batwing, there is a marked difference between firing back at vehicles with bad guys in them as he races to fight through more than two-dozen thugs to save an innocent old lady from being burned alive, and what he does in the earlier Batmobile chase -- where he seemingly disposes of a bunch of bad guys as he attempts to steal a weapon from them for himself and for all the wrong reasons, as Alfred even indicates.
The supposed deaths in the Martha rescue are definitely more comparable to the times that Bale's Batman fired upon vehicles, killed people, or did reckless things involving other people's vehicles during moments of desperation to save lives -- and not just Batman showing up to kill some bad guys because he feels like it and enjoys it. However, I do agree that the whole Martha rescue sequence would have resonated more if it hadn't seemed like Batman killed those men.
But I have said several time that Batman NOT branding Lex is important, as it indicates he's leaving behind the "executioner" aspect, or at least trying to.
I never said that the Martha moment on its own is what makes Batman decide to never kill or anything like that, but there are basically two reversals and turning points for Bruce in the film which lead him to his ending point in the film -- the Martha moment and later fighting alongside Superman and witnessing his selflessness.
I guess we'll see. I'm hoping for the best. If Snyder actually does abandon Batman's character development in BvS for Justice League, it'll be ******** and even more damaging to BvS because his characterization in the film will have been all for nothing. I honestly believe we'll be seeing the more classic, decent Batman of sound mind in DCEU movies set after BvS, especially with the way some fans have reacted to how Batman was portrayed in the film.
The Batman solo film may or may not be a prequel. I personally think it may be more of a sequel with flashes to the past, especially if the rumor of it being an adaptation of Under the Red Hood are to be believe.
But it's not like Johns is a completely talentless hack, and like him or not, he's extremely well-versed in the DC mythology, so it's good to have someone like that working with Affleck.
Also, it's been confirmed by Affleck that he is co-writing the Batman solo script with Johns which gives me confidence. Affleck himself is an Oscar-winning screenwriter from Good Will Hunting, obviously, and Best Picture winner for Argo which he directed, but Ben also co-wrote Gone Baby Gone, The Town, and the upcoming Live By Night, so he clearly has screenwriting experience. Hopefully they make a good combo and bring out the best in one another, so we'll see.
Which is because that's literally meant to be the moment that he went over the edge into "darkness" or whatever (seeing a girl become an orphan due to senseless violence similar to what happened to him as a boy), so it makes sense that we don't see that kind of Bruce for much of the movie. He already seems to be more compassionate by the end of the film based on how he reacts to Superman's death and wants to honor him, the fact that his faith in humanity seems to be restored, he wants to rebuild and "do better", saves Martha, etc.
