The Dark Knight Rises You Have My Permission To Lounge - Part 4

[The Joker]

Leto had 7-8 minutes of screentime. That is plenty to leave a strong impression. People went nuts over the December 2007 trailer. That was just a trailer and by no means a full picture of what Ledger was doing, but it was enough to know that he was doing something great.

Exactly. Quality can shine through and leave people buzzing in the shortest of screen time if its there. But Leto had none.

 

[shauner111]

It doesn't need to be loved by everyone in order for it to be good or interesting or fresh.

Leto is mixed right now. A lot of people think he gave a strong performance, a lot of people think it wasn't.

The majority of people think Affleck was fantastic as Batman in BvS. I thought he was average in the role. i think Leto was good but not as great as Jack or Heath because they had a chance to deal with Batman. I'm excited to see a face to face between Mista J and Batsy. Then I'll judge him properly. Until then it thought he left a strong impression for the little screen time he had with Harley and some made up characters, in a spin-off DC movie.

Joker > Luthor in this universe

 

[Tacit Ronin]

Margot Robbie is indeed one fine primate.

 

[The Joker]

I haven't seen a lot of people say he gave a strong performance. The best I've seen him get by any kind of consensus is he did the best he could with what little he was given. That doesn't equate to a strong performance.

Saying he's better than Eisen Lex isn't saying much at all. Lex was bottom of the barrel bad. Widely regarded as one of the worst CBM villains. Its no victory to be better than that.

 

[BatLobster]

I'll certainly give Leto another chance, given that he wasn't given the best material to work with in this film (honestly even with the few lines he had, none of his dialogue was even particularly good or clever) and had his role greatly reduced.

Unless Leto chooses to walk away, he's gonna be The Joker for years to come so I can only hope he'll grow on me over time or will nail the character for me in a future film.

I do kind of wish David Ayer wasn't the guy to reboot The Joker though. Now every other director is stuck with this gangsta version. It just comes off as a hollow attempt to make the character more grounded in the 'gritty' aesthetic, when it's not needed in this universe at all. We have a straight up comics accurate Batman aesthetic, we have witches and aliens and gods. A classic Joker could've fit perfectly in this world, so it just seems like a missed opportunity. I'm usually not one to get too up in arms about the fidelity to the comics in terms of aesthetics, but everything I disliked about his look just felt even more magnified in the film itself.

The moment where they homage the Joker/Harley Alex Ross painting was pretty cool, but as soon as he smiled and flashed that grill it was like "oh, yeah...".

 

[shauner111]

I said that because I'm just waiting to laugh at someone saying that Lex was better. Just like I laughed at the "both Hulk movies are better than all 3 DCEU movies" comment. Sorry Joker, but as much as I tend to love your posts lately, that still made me laugh!

Then again maybe I'm the one who's in the minority and being laughed at so its all good. I just loved these characters in this movie. There was a certain charisma between all of them, I could tell they were having fun. Hell friggin Jai Courtney was good and that's a first. Ayer must have done something right on set. My issues are more with the editing and choice of mission (still wish Batman was the antagonist). These characters were not dull like the Hulk characters who were so forgettable.

MOS didn't really offer anything new to the DC universe. We already saw a Superman origin. I feel the same about Amazing Spidey and Incredible Hulk. How many VS movies do we need and how many of them were successful at telling a story? A thoughtless battle usually takes priority. Like some fantasy boxing match for a video game. Suicide Swuad may have traces of Guardians as a film, with the music of course (I didn't mind each song serving as a theme for each character)...but this concept was created first (or was it the same time?) and I feel like s DC supervillain's movie with some darker visuals, dramatic moments, fun humor/interactions is a NEW thing for the genre right now. I know Batlobster didn't like the cards showing up in the beginning for every character but I loved that. It announced itself as "this ain't Nolan. This ain't Snyder. This ain't Whedon or the Russo's. This is Ayers Suicide Squad."

Characters are the most important thing in this superhero genre. Even if the rest is messy, they really delivered the characters. I do admit a couple needed more development but again, I blame the studio and this cut because I'm sure Ayer shot more for Croc and Boomerang and Joker.

 

[BatLobster]

See to me those title cards announced themselves as "this is WB hijacking Ayer's Suicide Squad and trying to streamline/inject more fun into this movie". I could be totally wrong, but that's how it came across to me.

As a general rule of thumb, I hate when movies do that to introduce characters though. It just seems lazy as hell and anti-cinematic. I hated it in the new TMNT movie too. Granted, that bothered me even more because it's not only an older franchise but also a sequel...I think we all know who the friggin' Turtles are at this point regardless of how old you are, haha.

So seeing that again in SS just reminded me of that right away.

 

[Chip Chipperson]

Margot Robbie is indeed one fine primate.

I would very much like to make the sex with her, if you catch my drift.

 

[Brother Jack]

Everything about Leto's Joker felt like it was trying too hard. It's the impression I got from the reveal pic and it's remained up until now. The tattoos and the grill just screamed "I'm edgy and different". Especially the facial tats. The ones on the body I can forgive. And then there were the reports of Leto's method antics on set, which all seem (even more) dumb now given how little he's in the film. It culminated into a performance that felt like a performance. Lacking nuance. Everything ratcheted up all the way to desperately sell how crazy and evil and unique he was. It's a fine line with the Joker with regards to how far over the top is too far, but I think you know it when you see it.

 

[Spider-Aziz]

Both of the Hulk movies are better than anything the DCEU has offered up so far, including SS.

Not a great compliment for the movies, but

Haha, Ed Norton and Tim Roth were the best parts of TIH for me, I really liked it the one time I saw it. Made me care about Hulk and the character of Bruce Banner, both of which I was never a big fan of, so for that I give the film kudos.

I'm a fan of the jade green giant.

 

[Slade W]

I would give SS a 5/10. I liked Harley, Deadshot and Waller. Boomerang was ok, but didn't have much to do. I thought Flagg was decent too. The action scenes were terrible and so was the villain. Scenes just seemed to fly by, and were not allowed to breath. I wish there was more interactions between the characters, and that the interactions that we got went on for longer. I remember Harley saying Deadshot was her friend, and they didn't really interact enough beforehand for it to have felt right, IMO. Relationships between the squad members were not built up as well as they should have been. It was very obvious to see that there was stuff that was cut, especially with how some scenes ended. I really hope that a directors cut is released at some point.

 

[The Joker]

I would give SS a 5/10. I liked Harley, Deadshot and Waller. Boomerang was ok, but didn't have much to do. I thought Flagg was decent too. The action scenes were terrible and so was the villain. Scenes just seemed to fly by, and were not allowed to breath. I wish there was more interactions between the characters, and that the interactions that we got went on for longer. I remember Harley saying Deadshot was her friend, and they didn't really interact enough beforehand for it to have felt right, IMO. Relationships between the squad members were not built up as well as they should have been. It was very obvious to see that there was stuff that was cut, especially with how some scenes ended. I really hope that a directors cut is released at some point.

What did you think of Letoker, since I recall you saying you were looking forward to him?

 

[Slade W]

What did you think of Letoker, since I recall you saying you were looking forward to him?

There was some stuff that I liked, but more that I didn't like. His scenes fit perfectly what I was describing in my post, where I was talking about scenes flying by and not being allowed to breathe. He loved Harley too much, IMO. One of his few scenes that was allowed to breathe, was in the helicopter with Harley, and I thought it was terrible, both in terms of acting and writing. I thought the scene with him asking where Harley is, where he had the drawn on smile, was also poor. I wouldn't call him cringe-inducing, but at times I did find him difficult to watch. He seemed like he was always desperate to show everyone how crazy he was. That said, I would still like to see more of his scenes fully to get a better idea, such as the full strip club and torturing Harley scenes, as well as the one where he was getting information from the person who worked at Belle Reve. From what I have seen so far, I am not a fan though.

 

[The Joker]

You're right. They made a balls up of the Joker/Harley relationship. A Joker who moves heaven and earth to find her is not the Joker. He couldn't care less about her. He would only ever seek her out if she had something he wanted. It would be the other way around, Harley would be hunting for him because she misses him.

 

[BatLobster]

I feel like honestly, I could've potentially gotten on board with the idea that Joker wanted Harley back. But the movie felt like it barely explored his possessiveness of her, they just made him seem like a daring Romeo who just wanted his lady back and would do anything to get her back. I could've been more on board if he was furious that she was functioning without him, and that was more his character motivation. I feel like he should've been NOT okay with the idea of her buddying up with these other criminals, and probably should have killed at least one member of the Squad.

I mean, how do you NOT have a scene where Joker gets a hold of Waller of Flag's phone and toys with the Squad? It's a freaking movie with The Joker in it, and a team of characters with explosives in their necks. And they do nothing with that?

Man, what a dumb movie.

 

[BaelaTargaryen]

So this is Ayer's explanation of the "damaged" tattoo:

"This is sort of my personal thing and maybe less about a larger connection. But Joker killed Robin and Batman basically smashes his teeth out and locks him up in Arkham Asylum. It’s in the asylum where Joker would have done the ‘damaged’ tattoo as a message to Batman saying, 'You’ve damaged me. I was so beautiful before and now you’ve destroyed my face.' That’s where the grill comes from".

 

[The Joker]

So this is Ayer's explanation of the "damaged" tattoo:

"This is sort of my personal thing and maybe less about a larger connection. But Joker killed Robin and Batman basically smashes his teeth out and locks him up in Arkham Asylum. It’s in the asylum where Joker would have done the ‘damaged’ tattoo as a message to Batman saying, 'You’ve damaged me. I was so beautiful before and now you’ve destroyed my face.' That’s where the grill comes from".

What a load of *beep*.

 

[Shikamaru]

Doesn't sound to me like the same Joker who literally removed his own face.

Also it doesn't sound like Snyder's Batman to throw the Joker in Arkham. Is this the same character who took in Jason and gave him an axe? I guess this shows that as far as the not-Snyder-directed films go, Batman won't kill. So at least there's that.

 

[shauner111]

What a load of *beep*.

Why is it a load of beep? Most of us assumed the teeth was because Batman punched out the Joker and f'd his teeth up. The director/writer himself is telling us why Joker has damaged written on his forehead, so why is it a load of crap? Or do you just mean that Joker wouldn't get a tattoo like that as a message to Batman...cuz then that would also be a bit limiting to say that Joker would never get a tattoo on his body.

You're right. They made a balls up of the Joker/Harley relationship. A Joker who moves heaven and earth to find her is not the Joker. He couldn't care less about her. He would only ever seek her out if she had something he wanted. It would be the other way around, Harley would be hunting for him because she misses him.

It seems like he was moving heaven and earth to get her back. That doesn't mean it's concrete that he loves her. Maybe he just wants a plaything. Honestly, i make an exception for Harley when it comes to the Joker ever caring for another person. If he ever did care for someone at this stage, it doesn't bother me at all that it would be her. But like i said it's not confirmed that he's actually in love with her.

I do admit that there were some moments where Leto was trying too hard, and that's why he's not on the level of Jack/Heath (and lack of screentime in his first go), but i didn't feel like it was the case with every single scene he was in.

 

[Greens]

Why is it a load of beep? Most of us assumed the teeth was because Batman punched out the Joker and f'd his teeth up. The director/writer himself is telling us why Joker has damaged written on his forehead, so why is it a load of crap? Or do you just mean that Joker wouldn't get a tattoo like that as a message to Batman...cuz then that would also be a bit limiting to say that Joker would never get a tattoo on his body.

It's a load of beep in the sense that it doesn't line up with that the movie says about Robin.

The idea itself was always around, and Joker considering himself "damaged" because he lost his signature smile is actually pretty cool. I hadn't looked at it that way.

 

[Tacit Ronin]

Joker is already physically damaged. The guy got flippin bleached in a vat of acid. Why would he care about more disfigurement? And why would he damage his face MORE as a result?

 

[Greens]

No, the person he was before he fell into the vat of acid was damaged. The Joker identity pretty much stands on its own, and his smile is a big part of that.

 

[Slade W]

Like I said earlier, I hope a directors cut is released. I think the addition of the removed scenes could improve the movie more than the BVS UC did.

 

[shauner111]

Absolutely. I think the first cut was 2 hours 40 minutes. But i have a feeling it won't happen unless the studio makes a cut behind Ayer's back after the backlash. And since some people raved about the Ultimate Cut of BvS being better. As of now it looks like Ayer is standing by the movie which is a shame, because they'll probably just throw like 20 or 30 minutes worth of deleted scenes onto the blu-ray.

 

[redfirebird2008]

So this is Ayer's explanation of the "damaged" tattoo:

"This is sort of my personal thing and maybe less about a larger connection. But Joker killed Robin and Batman basically smashes his teeth out and locks him up in Arkham Asylum. It’s in the asylum where Joker would have done the ‘damaged’ tattoo as a message to Batman saying, 'You’ve damaged me. I was so beautiful before and now you’ve destroyed my face.' That’s where the grill comes from".

Seems like a bad excuse for a bad design. Hopefully they drop the forehead tattoo next time and just pretend it was never there to begin with.