The Dark Knight Rises You Have My Permission To Lounge - Part 5

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What comic did he die in? I remember reading it, but I forget if it was in that major crossover where they finally reunited the Avengers after the Civil War/Skrull invasion stuff.

Can't remember the last time I read a Marvel comic.
 
I wonder if there's an alternate universe where I'm enjoying Superman movies the same way i'm enjoying with Cap's movies.
 
What comic did he die in? I remember reading it, but I forget if it was in that major crossover where they finally reunited the Avengers after the Civil War/Skrull invasion stuff.

Can't remember the last time I read a Marvel comic.
Siege #4
Events are lame, Dark Avengers title is lame. Sure glad they got over that Civil War - Dark Reign stuff, although Warren Ellis + Mike Deodato jr stuff in Thunderbolts is a great outcome, what happened to Moon Knight leading to the title Vengeance of Moon Knight is more fun stuff.
 
I wonder if there's an alternate universe where I'm enjoying Superman movies the same way i'm enjoying with Cap's movies.

If there is its in the same universe where the Fantastic Four movies are good, and Nolan's Batman movies are not the only mega successful and popular movies DC has had in over 20 years.
 
If there is its in the same universe where the Fantastic Four movies are good, and Nolan's Batman movies are not the only mega successful and popular movies DC has had in over 20 years.
I wonder if that world's me enjoys unpopular comic book movies less.
 
Man. They could've so easily ****** up Cap. Given us the jingoistic, ahole Ultimate Cap. Thank you Marvel for making him a boy scout goody two shoes.
 
I think he loosened up after the first arc, I think.
 
But he was still a boy scout in TWS and AOU (language!). He really loosened up in CW where he is kind of (justifiably) selfish.
 
Whether Affleck's is being nice or what, he sounds like a moron. He's insulting the Nolan films that once praised by saying it's just the tone. I mean, i guess you can say BvS had a darker tone than TDK Trilogy, but only in some ways...not all the way.

He can be truthful. Everyone else around him except for team Snyder are saying DC needs to do better or that BvS sucked you know what.

Now his comments about Deathstroke are kinda like "well, he seems cool, im a fan, he seemed like a good match to fight Batman so why not!". Johhn Campea is going crazy about how awesome that is to say that, as if Ben isn't just picking a random popular villain. OK yes, it's cool that it's a new villain, but we got a meathead playing the role and Ben's comments are so...simplistic that it makes me ask questions like "well what about the story?".

Deathstroke should fit the story he wants to tell. And perhaps he does. But it sounded like "ehh that'll be a great fight on screen.."

I wonder if this will be a homerun for Ben or a "stick to making original films Ben".
 
Oh and i grew up thinking Superman was dull and boring. And now i'm thinking he's a little more badass than i thought, but still quite boring and dull. Thanks Snyder.
 
Poor Superman is often underestimated too much.
 
In fairness though, I do think a lot of people have (understandably) taken issue to the fact that SUPERMAN is being depicted with such a dark tone. It's one thing if you do it with Batman, people tend to be on board for that, but a lot of people object to that kind of tone in a movie featuring Superman. Man of Steel obviously caught a lot of flak for this, but then BvS doubled down on it. I think the tonal issue DC has is trying to reconcile the gap between their two biggest heroes who are sometimes on the polar ends of the tonal spectrum- Batman and Superman. BvS' attempt to bridge that gap was basically just by putting an already darker Superman in a very dark Batman movie, which backfired big time. The execution issues are there, but I do think there's a valid argument there that the tone they chose is simply off putting for a lot of fans specifically because of Superman.

It's your sentiments here that make me wish BvS had been made back in the 90s with Michael Keaton and Christopher Reeve as their versions of the characters would have been the perfect contrast for each other; Bats dark and brooding, Supes happy and shining.

I understand that realistic and gritty is tone of choice for superhero films these days, but God dammit, why does Superman have to be a homicidal maniac? Seriously, does he ever smile between MoS or BvS?
 
I understand that realistic and gritty is tone of choice for superhero films these days, but God dammit, why does Superman have to be a homicidal maniac? Seriously, does he ever smile between MoS or BvS?
I think he smiles a little entering the bathtub in BvS, never again.
He smiled more in MoS.
 
He smiles right before turning the African drug lord to paste.
 
He smiles right before turning the African drug lord to paste.

You know what's hilarious about that? In theatrical cut, right after that happens, he says to Lois in the apartment, "I didn't kill those men..." I thought, "Dude, are you for real right now?"

In their review of BvS, Mike of RLM said that Reeve's Superman would never work in today's version of comic book movies because he was too cheesy and corny. Maybe that's true but at the same time, Superman doesn't have to be that happy and go-lucky. He doesn't need to the opposite end of that either. In the review, this came up after all three guys spoke about Superman's extreme hostility towards Lex Luthor on the helipad and that he's essentially gone crazy because a human being would be utterly helpless against him, so Mike quipped, "Superman's supposed to say, 'Well hi Lex. Good evening to you. What are you up to?'"

He can at least tone it down and say something akin to, "Lex, you have 30 seconds to explain why you just did what you did and I'm going to starting counting down from 20" or something, rather than "I'll take you in without breaking you!!". Not to mention, his tone doesn't need to be so angry either.
 
It's like their foreplay. "Lois, get yourself kidnapped. I will kill the kidnapper in the most grotesque way possible and then we will make love over his corpse".
 
"A happy Superman is not good in today's world"

Guardians of the Galaxy is a hit.

"Make BvS darker"

Civil War is dark too, with lots of jokes, and it's a hit.

"The tone was the thing people hated"

"Daredevil season 2 is AWESOOOME"
 
Mike of RLM sounds real annoying.

Poor Superman is often underestimated too much.

That's pretty much what happens when the last time Superman had meaningful, lasting pop culture resonance was the Donner films.
 
Even though it's said so painfully often, I just can't fathom Superman ever being considered boring or dull, nor even goofy or out of date. It just doesn't (pun half intended) fly with me. Even the "Batman thrives on reinvention, Superman not so much" thing. Batman's had more open success with that stuff, but there's just as many (or at least almost as many) valid interpretations of Superman out there, too. As with every other character-- you just need the right creatives behind the wheel to bring the best out in the them.
 
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"A happy Superman is not good in today's world"

Guardians of the Galaxy is a hit.

"Make BvS darker"

Civil War is dark too, with lots of jokes, and it's a hit.

"The tone was the thing people hated"

"Daredevil season 2 is AWESOOOME"

Daredevil is nothing but dark, gritty, and violent. Batman too but Superman is supposed to be the complete opposite of that. There needs to be contrast between the characters which BvS had none.
 
Superman is a hard character to write well. I've thought that for a long time. It's why, out of all the live action films, only two of them actually work. And even then have some issues.
 
Superman is a hard character to write well. I've thought that for a long time. It's why, out of all the live action films, only two of them actually work. And even then have some issues.

TL;DR version-- The character is not the problem, the people behind him are.

I think lacking a consistent and confident vision-- while sticking to the core of the character-- is the biggest part of the problem*. Every time he's had that, he's thrived.

From '38-'86, he had that. When he changed from a low-powered social crusader to a planet throwing space adventurer, it happened organically over decades. When DC first hit the reboot switch, and brought his powers down to more manageable levels and make him more "relatable" (aka Marvel-ize him)*, Byrne still stuck to his core principals and attitude... he just took a different route to get there.** This was carried on nicely by Jurgens, Ordway, Stern etc. It was only Loeb and Waid trying to reincorporate Silver Age trappings that first rocked the boat (even though I agree with them both in terms of what I want from the character) from a continuity perspective. From then on, I think the biggest issue has been DC listening to the detractors ("He's not kewl, he's out of date")***, putting lesser creatives on him (obvious exceptions aside) and chopping and changing constantly... In other words, instead of realising that poor management was the problem, they decided the character was.

The same applies to the movies. The problem lies not with the character, per say... People loved the first two movies because they were good movies... They didn't like the rest because they weren't good, to varying levels. Once Donner was gone, the Salkinds had Lester push the series closer to their original vision aka goofy comedy. Audiences didn't like it. The fourth movie was saddled with a poor budget and script. Same result (a death knell this time, too). The character himself was always loved or liked through all this.

SR comes around and... The only people who blame the character himself for this one are a segment of the fans, and unfortunately, WB execs (who have long since proven they don't have a clue about him). For audiences? It was boring, aiming for the wrong demographic (though I've always liked it).

In the Snyder years, things get more interesting, because the character himself is part of the core problem. MoS, in spite of having so many great ideas and good aspects... was poorly executed on too many levels, and had some bone-headed decisions. Audiences were torn/indifferent. The biggest reaction to the character himself comes from BvS. Amongst the huge problems it has with virtually all the other characters, the writing and direction in general, one of the biggest complaints is this -- "Why is Superman such a morose, stone-faced ***hole?" In other words... They wished he'd been MORE LIKE SUPERMAN.

For both comics and movies-- Bring back quality, consistency and confidence that adheres to the core character, I believe people will come. DC Rebirth (in spite of continuity still being all over the place), is a huge step in the right direction so far.

*Though I don't believe it's the core problem, I concede that writing the SUPER SUPER Superman would be a challenge for an extended run. A challenge, but not impossible with the right teams of people.

** Byrne's run-- in spite of being good quality fun that I appreciate-- was responsible for one of the more damaging changes to Superman amongst the fandom... "Clark Kent is who I am, Superman is what I can do". I believe this is fundamentally missing the point of the character, and destroying a lot of what makes him so interesting, complex and unique. It made him a little more pedestrian... a little more mundane. Thankfully though, he upheld the other aspects of him quite well.

*** Which, as almost always, leads to WB/DC over-correcting. First by making Superman himself near constantly wondering to himself "Why am here?! What am I supposed to do?! AM I A GOOD SUPERHERO?!!" from about '04 to damn near June/July this year (thank you, Rebirth)... Then when they reboot again, over-correcting to "Superman's kewl, armour wearing, and kind of a jerk" with the New 52. It wasn't like that all the way through, but nobody really knew what to do with Young Social Crusading Brawler Superman outside of Morrison and sometimes Pak. Everyone else... sucked to various degrees, and DC's marketing of him was woeful (to the point where I myself have only JUST started reading him).
 
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Suicide Squad extended cut out in November digitally. December for the Blu Ray.
 
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