The Dark Knight Rises You Have My Permission To Lounge - Part 9

[Kahran Ramsus]

I don't agree with putting TDKR below either of the Burton movies.

Or MOTP for that matter.

But BvS totally deserves to be last. I'd much rather watch Batman & Robin again than it.

 

[DoomRulz]

It's nice to see you all gushing over the Nolan trilogy, though given this crowd, I can't say I'm surprised. How did WB end up here? Did they even try to talk Nolan and Bale into sticking around for more movies?

 

[BaelaTargaryen]

What's your sig from? I can't stop giggling.

It's from a Snyder/DCEU fan who used to post on this forum. He left because he was unhappy that many posters hated BvS.

http://dceufilms.proboards.com/thread/530/share-reviews-reactions-film-spoilers?page=4

WW is a modest, unpretentious, almost gentle film in the tradition of classic adventure films. In contrast Snyder's films took huge risks by applying a controversial reality based approach to the myth. MoS placed Superman in the real world for the first time to see what would happen. In many ways BvS could be considered an indie arthouse film dressed up as a blockbuster. Or the superhero film that Stanley Kubrick might have made.

 

[OutOfBoose]

Or MOTP for that matter.

But BvS totally deserves to be last. I'd much rather watch Batman & Robin again than it.

I rewatched TMoP recently when blu-ray came out and I can put it above TDKR, BR and B89. I just don't think it's fair to compare live action and animation directly, because live action is much more complex production.

 

[Spider-Aziz]

But BvS totally deserves to be last. I'd much rather watch Batman & Robin again than it.

One movie I've see multiple times and enjoyed even after paying attention to the plethora of flaws in it, the other is horrible growling grunting and killing.

 

[Brother Jack]

It's nice to see you all gushing over the Nolan trilogy, though given this crowd, I can't say I'm surprised. How did WB end up here? Did they even try to talk Nolan and Bale into sticking around for more movies?

There were talks as early as 2007 about WB doing Justice League. At that time George Miller was going to do it. I'm sure they offered Nolan and Bale truck loads of money after TDK, but Nolan made it clear he wasn't interested and then explicitly made Rises to be the hard end of his Batman. I think Bale would've stayed if Nolan did, but Nolan had done all he wanted to do.

 

[BatLobster]

I think TDK becoming a huge phenomenon definitely changed things. If it had been another BB-level moderate success, I'm not sure Nolan achieves the Hollywood superpower status he's currently enjoying, I'm not sure Inception gets made, I'm not sure he's given the creative freedom to close the door hard on his universe, etc.

Of course, it was no fluke- I think Nolan pretty much was always going to be on this huge trajectory as major mainstream filmmaker, and we were lucky enough as Batman fans and movie fans that we got to reap the benefits of that meteoric rise with some high quality, commercial but artistically driven Bat-films.

I do feel for Bale because I think he did have more he wanted to explore with the character, but he's also lucky in that he's the only Batman actor who got to portray a complete beginning-middle-end arc for the character, and the legacy of his films are looking pretty safe at the moment. And of course, he could've always accepted a monster paycheck and returned for BvS, but I think he had too much integrity and loyalty for that.

 

[shauner111]

Nolan and Bale weren't a part of Miller's version. But supposedly they were offered money to keep going for the DCEU, and they turned it down. I haven't thought about this in a while, but after watching this fall apart with Justice League, it's hard not to think what could have been if Snyder was never involved with Superman and Man of Steel went really well with Abrams. While Bale and Gadot went on as the DCEU Batman & Wonder Woman. We could have had a trilogy for each of the Trinity, and a proper Justice League. But thank god Nolan declined in the end.

 

[BatLobster]

I'll say, I do wish Nolan would've tried to convince Snyder not to go over the top with all the CGI-destruction in the third act of MoS. I think it set a standard that's tricky to walk back from, because ideally you want to be able to keep raising the stakes as you go further in the franchise. I also think Nolan as a director himself wanted to give Snyder the same creative freedom that he would want as a director, so in the end he let Zack follow his own instincts which IMO were often the wrong ones. Not to mention he was knee-deep in making TDKR when Snyder was filming.

I still believe if WB had simply been patient, MoS 2 could've been a great step in the right direction. Either you keep Snyder on a much tighter leash, or just hire someone else.

-Let Superman be Superman. The ending set up the classic status quo, so let us live in that for a bit- THEN threaten it.
-Have a HUGE, tense rescue sequence as the major setpiece of the film- ala the plane rescue in Superman Returns, but late enough in the film like the big chase in TDK so it has more stakes. Something akin to the train or ferry sequences in Spidey 2 or Homecoming.
-Let the climax have more personal stakes, which Luthor could've worked for. At all costs, avoid another CGI destruction porn climax. Made the audience really care about and root for Superman. It could even be a moral dilemma like BvS.

Man of Steel wasn't the smash hit they were expecting, but it was far from a bomb. It may have been a tricky course correction to make, but it was still salvageable. It wouldn't have had to be as extreme and blatantly pandering as the too-late "course correction" of JL. I'm always going to wonder what could've been if they had been as patient with Superman as they were with Begins.

 

[Brother Jack]

I might be in the minority on this, but I never wanted Bale for the DCEU. TDKT stood as such a definitive and finite piece of work that, for me, having that version of Batman show up in someone else's vision with a bunch of other characters felt incongruous and cheap. The prospect of another reinterpretation of Batman was exciting to me, but I didn't want to see it so soon.

 

[Pfeiffer-Pfan]

There's a little bit of my fanboy heart that thinks it would be cool to have seen Bale come back.

- Do Superman and Wonder Woman movies.
- Build up to Justice League were the guys realise they need a strategist, the ultimate strategist. Perhaps Lois did some research on ''The Bat'' early in her career.
- This leads WonderGal to Italy (or wherever) to recruit Bat-Bale. Selina just couldn't be tied down and Blake became Nightwing.
- WB could have then done a few Bat-Family movies.

This way you get the critical adoration that came with Bale and you have the ''older'' Bats WB was looking for.

But I'll always love the trilogy and would have hated to see Bale in sub-par movies.

 

[Tacit Ronin]

It's from a Snyder/DCEU fan who used to post on this forum. He left because he was unhappy that many posters hated BvS.

http://dceufilms.proboards.com/thread/530/share-reviews-reactions-film-spoilers?page=4

The indie arthouse vibe was the strongest when Batman, Superman and Wonder Woman was fighting a video game monster amidst digital smoke and flames.

 

[BatLobster]

Yeah, I mean it's fun to fantasize about what could've been in an ideal world. During that brief period in early 2013 when it was rumored WB was courting Bale to return, I definitely did some mental gymnastics to convince myself it might just work. But if it had happened, I think it could've easily been a "careful what you wish for" scenario.

 

[Spider-Aziz]

Justice League doesn't suck. But it's a giant pile of meh. It doesn't do anything new, the jokes fall flat, Ezra is a lousy Flash, Affleck is bored, Cavill is as wooden as ever, Gadot is...there, I guess, and Fisher is monotone. The majority of the film is a CG fest and the villain was a complete tosser.

The bold parts are not things I expected to read, I read compliments for Cavill in the red boots this time.

 

[shauner111]

There's a little bit of my fanboy heart that thinks it would be cool to have seen Bale come back.

- Do Superman and Wonder Woman movies.
- Build up to Justice League were the guys realise they need a strategist, the ultimate strategist. Perhaps Lois did some research on ''The Bat'' early in her career.
- This leads WonderGal to Italy (or wherever) to recruit Bat-Bale. Selina just couldn't be tied down and Blake became Nightwing.
- WB could have then done a few Bat-Family movies.

This way you get the critical adoration that came with Bale and you have the ''older'' Bats WB was looking for.

But I'll always love the trilogy and would have hated to see Bale in sub-par movies.

Totally agree with all of this.

It would have only worked if they took their time & made sure each film was good, without Whedon, Snyder, Terrio involved. Also, more of a leash on what they bring into the DCEU (i'm talking about characters). The first Justice League could have been a leaner team with a different villain, and a more balanced tone. The audience would have cared for Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman soo much going into the big team up. Having Bale/Wayne as the "intelligent recruiter" until the third act of JL where he dons that grey/black suit. Imagine the pop, with Zimmer's Bat theme pounding through the speakers? Legendary moment. No bat solos, just bat-family spin-offs like you mentioned.

 

[shauner111]

With that said, F this universe. Since you guys brought up Bale wanting to do more but having too much respect for Nolan to not continue. Well, if there was ever a chance for Bale to dig deeper into the role, I don't think it should have been for a DCEU. Screw that alien, metahuman nonsense. I would have rather seen Bale just do another Batman movie.

 

[DoomRulz]

The bold parts are not things I expected to read, I read compliments for Cavill in the red boots this time.

I felt like Miller was doing his best Peter Parker impression. The whole awkward, shy teen shtick sucked. Grant Gustin never played it like that and it's why his Flash is so superior; plus Miller's suit was terrible. Cavill wasn't doing much of anything. They obviously wanted to make him more likeable and closer to the Reeves' version of Supes but it didn't work for me and Gadot was trying, bless her. She really was.

 

[BaelaTargaryen]

Justice League proves that the DC Extended Universe doesn’t know what to do with Batman

Toward the end of Justice League, Ben Affleck’s Batman and Gal Gadot’s Wonder Woman share a small moment. Earlier in the film, he taunted her about the death of Steve Trevor, the love of her immortal-ish life and the man who taught her about hope in the human race; eventually, he apologizes for this boorish behavior — while also proposing that she replace him as the leader of the Justice League.

Wonder Woman is an Amazon — a demigod blessed with super strength and superhuman reflexes who is essentially immortal (aging has slowed down to a crawl for her). She’s a master of hand-to-hand combat; her weapons of choice were forged by the gods. And her story, believing in the goodness of man, is inspiring.

Meanwhile, Batman’s primary asset seems to be that he has a lot of disposable income, a constant joke throughout the movie. He’s constantly upstaged in Justice League by his superpowered teammates, who are stronger, faster, and smarter than him.

Wonder Woman stepping in to lead the league — even if that would mean sidelining Batman, its founder — would make complete logical sense. She appears to be more qualified in just about every way, a fact that by the end of the movie he seems painfully aware of.

His realization encapsulates one of the film’s gravest flaws: that Batman is sort of useless. While Wonder Woman would no doubt be a fantastic leader, and her character absolutely deserves a role at the center of the DC Extended Universe (Gadot has become the breakout star of Warner Bros.’ recent superhero movies), the fact remains that the DC Extended Universe has really done a disservice to DC Comics’ most popular hero.

It’s painted the Dark Knight into a corner. His skills in the comic books — his analytical mind, his knack for problem solving, his strategy and intelligence — have been downplayed in favor of a more rugged, more physical character. Batman has always been more than just a brawler, but now he’s strikingly one-dimensional in his brooding darkness, and, at times, stunningly ineffective. The Batman we see in Warner Bros.’ movies is a shadow of the hero he’s supposed to be.

If this moment of truth between Batman and Wonder Woman had happened in one of DC’s comic books, there wouldn’t have been such a stark gap between the two heroes’ competence in terms which character is better suited to preside over the Justice League. Wonder Woman, Batman, and Superman have historically been portrayed as leading the team equally and having the most important voices on the team (they’re often referred to as “the Trinity”). Batman’s tactical smarts and analytical skills are far superior to those of the other two. He doesn’t have the godlike gifts of Superman and Wonder Woman, but they can’t solve problems or think through a plan as well as Batman.

However, there’s a major storytelling divide between DC’s comic books and many of the movies they’ve spawned. Under director Zack Snyder’s creative vision, films like Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice and now Justice League have revolved around the mentality that brute strength equals power; in terms of importance, intelligence and cunning are secondary.

Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice contains an indelible scene where Bruce Wayne throws tires around during a workout, as if extreme training is going to make a tangible difference when he goes up against a powerhouse alien like Superman. And later in that movie, in the final fight against Doomsday, it’s Superman’s valiant display of strength that saves the day, as he plunges a kryptonite spear into his enemy and sacrifices himself. Never mind that a bit of strategy between him and his teammate Wonder Woman — who also has super strength but no weakness to kryptonite — could have yielded the same result; Superman needed to put on a show. (Meanwhile, when it comes to smarts, the savviest character in the movie is the spindly, conniving Lex Luthor.)

And in both Batman v Superman and Justice League, Batman in particular is more brooding than anything else; he isn’t much of a strategist or thinker.

In Justice League, Batman and his loyal butler–turned–tactician Alfred use information from Lex Luthor’s files to find recruits for the League, as opposed to relying on Batman’s own research.

Further, Batman needs Wonder Woman to point out to him that the villain Steppenwolf’s invasion of Earth has already begun — something DC Comics’ greatest investigator should have already known. He also takes a back seat to Cyborg’s surveillance and research skills when trying to locate Steppenwolf’s hideout.

Batman’s two strategic decisions in the movie are half-baked. His plan to revive Superman results in Superman throttling the team while in a state of shock, and the only recourse Batman has is a hope and a prayer that Superman will recognize Lois Lane, and that she’ll be enough to snap him out of his stupor. Batman’s other not-so-great idea is to try to distract the parademons in the movie’s final fight, a plan that almost gets him killed.

In essence, Justice League reduces Batman to a brawler with some cool vehicles (which inevitably get blown up). Characterizing him in this way doesn’t really do him any favors, since he has teammates who eclipse his strength, speed, and fighting skills in every way. As a result, he’s often an afterthought in Justice League’s biggest fight scenes, relegated to firing guns in the corner or writhing on the ground in pain. Couple that with the DC Extended Universe’s penchant for mounting giant, world-crushing villains like Doomsday and Steppenwolf, whom Batman can’t even put a scratch on, and the caped crusader starts to seem pretty expendable.

At best, he’s minimally helpful — and that’s an extremely worrisome development considering that villains tend to get bigger and badder as superhero cinematic universes are expanded.

But perhaps that’s the point. Rumors have been circulating that Affleck wants to leave the role of Batman. Maybe his Bruce Wayne is meant to be seen as a sentimental fan favorite, a character who is more symbolic than he is integral — a Batman on his last legs who will pass on the cape and cowl to someone else. It’s possible that because Justice League’s narrative is so scrambled, this wasn’t fully made clear.

But even if that’s the case, and even if Warner Bros. hires a new Batman, the studio still needs to do some soul searching to figure out what the character means to the DC Extended Universe, and what role he plays in it.

Is he the soul of the Justice League? Is he the brains? Does he add any value whatsoever? Right now he just feels lost. And that’s a major problem not just for Warner Bros. but for anyone who wants to see some justice done to the character and his legacy.

 

[Tacit Ronin]

Black Widow was used better in the Avengers than Batman in JL.

 

[BatLobster]

Yup. Every single potential pitfall of having Batman alongside all these superpowered beings in a film context was sadly realized with this film. I'm beyond annoyed at WB for what they've done here. The more it sinks in, the more frustrated I am.

 

[Tacit Ronin]

But I am not entirely dissatisfied. If only to see batbros, the more toxic side of Batman fandom squirm.

 

[The Chris]

I felt that way the entire time watching Justice League. Batman felt like a fool who was just there to get his butt kicked. One thing i love about the animated series was it made it so clear why the league needs the Batman. They'd be nothing without his mind. They'd be like The Avengers without Cap. Here Batman feels like the Hawkeye of the group. Heck that's an insult to Hawkeye since those movies show why Hawkeye is such a good advantage to have in battle. It really seemed like Batman was just there to shoot things and be a jerk (and not an entertaining jerk like he could be on Justice League Unlimited for example).

 

[Tacit Ronin]

Stephen Wolfe seemed much weaker than Zod and Doomsday, right?

 

[Chip Chipperson]

Stephen Wolfe was a jobber

 

[The Chris]

Everyone was a jobber compared to Superman in the movie. It was almost like that old clip from WWE where everyone is getting beat up and then Stone Cold shows up and stunners everyone.