Justice League Justice League: News and Speculation - Part 10

[Infinity9999x]

Superman may be a fantastic character but he still has to exist in a real world and he still has to obey laws of physics.

For example - Superman cannot talk in space, Superman cannot resurrect the dead.

He also has to interact with normal people around him, this is not a fantasy world like - Land of Oz or Narnia.

....The guy can fly. He can shoot lazers out of his eyes. He can do an ice breath.

Not to mention, he can fly in space, yet somehow his entire race died when their planet exploded...despite being able to fly in space.

Superman's powers, in many cases, have been just as much fantasy as Sci-fi. Largely because in the early comic days if a writer wanted Superman to be able to do something, he just gave him a ridiculous power.

That said, nothing you've said contradicts what I've been saying. It's all in how the material is presented. Cloning dinosaurs is a ridiculous idea. But JP presented the material in an intelligent and serious way, and we (the audience) bought into it. Superman is a ridiculous idea. This film seems to be presenting him in an intelligent and serious way, and so far, people are buying into it.

The same could be done with some of the more outlandish Batman villains.

 

[Infinity9999x]

But does it mean Earth should by any different, before they arrive?

If Lexcorp is already in the process of building cyborgs and what not during MOS, then that notion of trying to be realistic will be dispelled.

What notion of trying to be realistic? This film, because it was about Superman, was never realistic!

Yes, it's dealing with realistic reactions to an outlandish character. But it's obviously not a realistic world because it's a world where Superman is possible.

And I don't see how it changes anything if we found out after this movie that Lexcorp had been working on tech of building cyborgs. That could be revealed in the next movie, that they had been working on it for years. People are going to have no issue buying that a company made a cyborg (which is technology that may actually be achievable some day) when the world these films are set in includes SUPERMAN, who is not realistic in any sense.

 

[Rodrigo90]

But should it mean that we take a leap of having Clayfaces running around on one side of the country and being surprised by aliens arriving on the other side, when MOS is trying to portray a real world vibe to those things?

Unless MOS has unrealistic elements on Earth as opposed to from it, from scientists creating Parasite monsters and inventors building freeze guns.

 

[roach]

What notion of trying to be realistic? This film, because it was about Superman, was never realistic!

Yes, it's dealing with realistic reactions to an outlandish character. But it's obviously not a realistic world because it's a world where Superman is possible.

And I don't see how it changes anything if we found out after this movie that Lexcorp had been working on tech of building cyborgs. That could be revealed in the next movie, that they had been working on it for years. People are going to have no issue buying that a company made a cyborg (which is technology that may actually be achievable some day) when the world these films are set in includes SUPERMAN, who is not realistic in any sense.

this is why I abhor 'realism' in superhero films. You can try to justify decisions made by the filmmakers but the more you tug at a particular thread the more the whole thing falls apart. A realistic Superman movie???? This movie has a flying man and an alien invasion...it doesn't get much more fantastical than that.

 

[FeedOnATreeFrog]

But should it mean that we take a leap of having Clayfaces running around on one side of the country and being surprised by aliens arriving on the other side, when MOS is trying to portray a real world vibe to those things?

Unless MOS has unrealistic elements on Earth as opposed to on it, from scientists creating Parasite monsters and inventors building freeze guns.

But can't Clayface, etc, just pop up....after MoS?

(after the story of 'what if Superman, an alien, appeared in the real world')

 

[Infinity9999x]

But should it mean that we take a leap of having Clayfaces running around on one side of the country and being surprised by aliens arriving on the other side, when MOS is trying to portray a real world vibe to those things?

Unless MOS has unrealistic elements on Earth as opposed to on it, from scientists creating Parasite monsters and inventors building freeze guns.

When it rains it pours. This could be a world on the brink of diving into new realms technology wise. Superman was just the tipping point. He was the first outlandish character that made a splash publicly.

You could have many options:
1.)The more outlandish characters haven't been created yet. They all begin happening after Superman.
2.) Some of the more outlandish characters have been around, but they're regarded as urban legends. Someone like Clayface wouldn't be stupid enough to make himself publicly known.

But really, this doesn't matter. Because once this film has been made, and the audience members see that the DCU is one that includes a character as outlandish as Superman, they'll have no problem buying more of the fantastical characters in the Batman universe if the material is presented well.

 

[Infinity9999x]

this is why I abhor 'realism' in superhero films. You can try to justify decisions made by the filmmakers but the more you tug at a particular thread the more the whole thing falls apart. A realistic Superman movie???? This movie has a flying man and an alien invasion...it doesn't get much more fantastical than that.

Exactly. Heck, it drove me nuts when people called Nolan's films "realistic." Because they're not at all either. Just take one look at Two-Face, despite the fact that the muscles required to move his jaw and eye were gone, he somehow magically could. Not to mention the fact that someone with that kind of damage would dead.

 

[shauner111]

Superman may be a fantastic character but he still has to exist in a real world and he still has to obey laws of physics.

For example - Superman cannot talk in space, Superman cannot resurrect the dead.

He also has to interact with normal people around him, this is not a fantasy world like - Land of Oz or Narnia.

Exactly.

Infinity, Mr. Freeze could work if you make it about tech after MOS. But let's not forget that earth in MOS, as far as we know, is just like TDKT. You cant just use Superman being an alien as a part of an argument, he was not born here so monsters or meta-humans can not exist here unless it's all tied to Krypton and what comes from outer space. That sounds OK for a couple of characters. I guess Flash could work or a single Bat villain like Freeze, but the reboot therefore shouldn't have all the other monsters should it? Because it's TOO connected. Might just be my opinion but I don't want to see every bit of fantastical element in Batmans world to be tied to Krypton.

Gotham also, in the reboot, will have to be similar to Nolans version of Gotham. Do people want that? I thought they wanted a visually separate thing for the future of the franchise?

 

[shauner111]

But can't Clayface, etc, just pop up....after MoS?

(after the story of 'what if Superman, an alien, appeared in the real world')

It can not UNLESS it's related to Krypton because of their genetically altered beings. Otherwise it cant work simply because the man is born here, our world has different rules. It's not Spider-Man where anybody can be experimented on and become a giant monster. Man Of Steel's earth is the same as TDKT so if ur born here you have to obey the laws of this universe.

 

[Great Mind(s)]

Seriously who wants to see Batman start off fighting Killer Croc and other supernatural villains?? You wanna redo Batman Begins but make Ra's have a Lazarus pit or something? What's the point? The Earth in MOS is LIKE OURS, a realistic world. NOT a world with Lazarus pits and killer croc and Mr Freeze. If the Earth Superman is coming to in MOS has Lazarus pits, killer croc, Mr Freeze, Poison Ivy, then the Earth would not only be alien to Kal-El but it will be alien to US the viewer.

However if the Earth Superman comes to's extent of "super stuff" are psychos who dress up like clowns, secret ninja societies and a vigilante dressed up as a bat, the supernatural stuff with Superman would still be as shocking and Earth-changing. But if it's like AA with supernatural silly over the top things, it's not going to mix with THIS Superman.

Why do you want AA style just so we can have a permaface Joker?? TDKR came out LESS THAN TWO YEARS AGO and people wanna jump on the "time for another version" bandwagon. Sally Field and Martin Sheen to play Wayne's parents too?

 

[FeedOnATreeFrog]

Exactly. Heck, it drove me nuts when people called Nolan's films "realistic." Because they're not at all either. Just take one look at Two-Face, despite the fact that the muscles required to move his jaw and eye were gone, he somehow magically could. Not to mention the fact that someone with that kind of damage would dead.

there's always a scale.

They just mean 'realistic' in comparison to Nolan/Schumacher, etc.

Personally, I like everything feeling as 'believable' as possible. I don't see why you wouldn't. However, the existence of a new substance (blue fear flowers, Lazarus Pits) or aliens even does not break my suspension of disbelief.

Aliens appearing tomorrow is not as 'unrealistic' as Bruce's back healing in TDKR. The Two-Face thing isn't a good thing either imo. Neither is Batman falling down the building with Rachel unscathed. I don't like to shut my mind off. I like to feel like these things are happening.

 

[Infinity9999x]

Shauner, I see what you're saying. I just don't agree.

The world in MOS is NOT like ours. Do you know why? BECAUSE IT IS A WORLD THAT EXISTS WITH SUPERMAN.

I've seen nothing yet to indicate this isn't a world where other super powered beings could exist--outside the influence of Kryptonian tech. In fact, I'd have to say it's most likely going to be that, because WB does seem to want to make this a world where a JLA is possible. And if you want a world where the JLA is possible, it HAS to be a world where super-powered beings come about without the influence from Krypton.

Flash, Wonder Woman, Hawkman, all of these characters come about without influence from Superman. It's a world where these fantastical characters exist.

However, in this world Superman is the first of them. And that's how they're dealing with that reaction. After superman, the other meta's will start popping up. Or if they're already there, they've been regarded as urban legends and haven't gone public. That's pretty simple right there.

 

[Rodrigo90]

The K Tech changing modern science and Tech can either work in the Nolanverse or the Batman reboot.

Either way, it's a good explanation for all the new weird **** happening

 

[Great Mind(s)]

Bruce's healing, Bane's mask, League of Shadows, Batman in general? How did Catwoman get a tailor made skin tight robber suit with those fancy goggles? It doesn't matter because TDKR isn't as realistic as some people claim. The Joker was almost a supernatural character in TDK. He just came in and out like a monster who had complete control over everything and knew what everyone was going to do. It's not realistic in the first place. Batman is a comic-book superhero, so is Superman. Batman has always been the vigilante who beats up humans, Superman is the alien. Mixing them together in the first place is a little strange, which is the point. And since mos is being made realistic like TDK, it would only make sense to use TDK Batman and not some super powered killer plant killer croc killer clayface fighting guy from the video game...

 

[Infinity9999x]

Seriously who wants to see Batman start off fighting Killer Croc and other supernatural villains?? You wanna redo Batman Begins but make Ra's have a Lazarus pit or something? What's the point? The Earth in MOS is LIKE OURS, a realistic world. NOT a world with Lazarus pits and killer croc and Mr Freeze. If the Earth Superman is coming to in MOS has Lazarus pits, killer croc, Mr Freeze, Poison Ivy, then the Earth would not only be alien to Kal-El but it will be alien to US the viewer.

However if the Earth Superman comes to's extent of "super stuff" are psychos who dress up like clowns, secret ninja societies and a vigilante dressed up as a bat, the supernatural stuff with Superman would still be as shocking and Earth-changing. But if it's like AA with supernatural silly over the top things, it's not going to mix with THIS Superman.

Why do you want AA style just so we can have a permaface Joker?? TDKR came out LESS THAN TWO YEARS AGO and people wanna jump on the "time for another version" bandwagon. Sally Field and Martin Sheen to play Wayne's parents too?

Why do you assume that people who want the fantastic elements ONLY want those elements?

I personally prefer a more grounded Batman. In fact, I have never liked the idea of Batman in the JLA. Ever. However, every now and then it's fun to see Batman go against Mr. Freeze, or a Lazarus Pit Ra's. ESPECIALLY if the material is handled well. That's all it takes. Again, nobody really believes we can clone dinosaurs, but JP presented the material well and we all bought it.

I've had 8 years of the Nolan bat films. I loved them. But now I'd like to see something new. I'd like to see some characters, who can be great characters if done well get a shot. (like Freeze)

And honestly, I think you HAVE to have this kind of Batman world to buy a Batman in the JLA. Because the JLA is going to be facing off against more cosmic powered entities.

 

[jonathancrane]

Nolan's secularization of the mythology should not be re-used. If it was nice while it lasted, but should not be re-used. Using it again signifies a frustrating lack of imagination. I would rather have the Rainbow Monster, Crazy Quilt and Condiment King as villains in the film before another Nolanized mobster or mercenery (Two-Face, Joker, R'as, Bane, etc.)

 

[FeedOnATreeFrog]

It can not UNLESS it's related to Krypton because of their genetically altered beings. Otherwise it cant work simply because the man is born here, our world has different rules. It's not Spider-Man where anybody can be experimented on and become a giant monster. Man Of Steel's earth is the same as TDKT so if ur born here you have to obey the laws of this universe.

But if one 'fantasy' thing can occur (the first: aliens coming to Earth), why can't other fantasy things occur as well later?

MOS is simply the event that makes the 'real-world' a fantasy world, because aliens are fantasy. Other unrelated fantasy stuff crops up later.

Is it the coincidence of timing that rubs you the wrong way? (same thing in MCU)

 

[Great Mind(s)]

But can't you see how Man Of Steel is Superman coming to regular Earth, NOT superpowered Earth? We just had Ra's, you want him again? You wanna see Batman beat up Killer Croc PLAY Arkham Asylum. If they weren't making Man Of Steel so much like TDK movies I'd be all for a fantasy Batman reboot. But the fact that they're trying so hard to make Man Of Steel "What if Superman ACTUALLY existed", the same as "What if Batman ACTUALLY existed" makes it seem redundant and pointless at this time. Keeping Hans Zimmer, Goyer and Nolan...it just feels like the same universe. Yes Snyder has his input as did say, Matthew Vaughn for X-Men First Class...but Singer was producer and his universe was still intact.
Instead of rebooting ANOTHER realistic Batman, why not just USE the realistic Batman? And do Wonder Woman, The Flash, Green Arrow...other stuff instead? The GA knows Batman now, he's set.
Why not wait for Superman coming to a fantasy Earth for fantasy Batman to join him? This is a new type of Superman, they keep saying how realistic it's supposed to be I believe them. The trailer looks like "Superman Begins" .

 

[shauner111]

Seriously who wants to see Batman start off fighting Killer Croc and other supernatural villains?? You wanna redo Batman Begins but make Ra's have a Lazarus pit or something? What's the point? The Earth in MOS is LIKE OURS, a realistic world. NOT a world with Lazarus pits and killer croc and Mr Freeze. If the Earth Superman is coming to in MOS has Lazarus pits, killer croc, Mr Freeze, Poison Ivy, then the Earth would not only be alien to Kal-El but it will be alien to US the viewer.

However if the Earth Superman comes to's extent of "super stuff" are psychos who dress up like clowns, secret ninja societies and a vigilante dressed up as a bat, the supernatural stuff with Superman would still be as shocking and Earth-changing. But if it's like AA with supernatural silly over the top things, it's not going to mix with THIS Superman.

Why do you want AA style just so we can have a permaface Joker?? TDKR came out LESS THAN TWO YEARS AGO and people wanna jump on the "time for another version" bandwagon. Sally Field and Martin Sheen to play Wayne's parents too?

Less than one year my friend. LESS THAN ONE YEAR and people want the reboot. People should be wanting this franchise to space it out because I can guarantee everybody right now that the well will dry up with "new stories" to tell about Batman and the same people who want this reboot so soon? They'll be the ones complaining and asking "Why did they rush these films out so fast? NOW WE DONT HAVE ANYMORE GOOD IDEAS! OMG now they're going on another 8 year break? stupid studio!"

Guaranteed in 10, 15 years from now you're all going to be wondering why there's no more Batman movies for a lonnng long time, and that's because WB didn't space them out properly. If WB are smart they'll wait to reboot this thing around 2020, after JL.

 

[shauner111]

Shauner, I see what you're saying. I just don't agree.

The world in MOS is NOT like ours. Do you know why? BECAUSE IT IS A WORLD THAT EXISTS WITH SUPERMAN.

I've seen nothing yet to indicate this isn't a world where other super powered beings could exist--outside the influence of Kryptonian tech. In fact, I'd have to say it's most likely going to be that, because WB does seem to want to make this a world where a JLA is possible. And if you want a world where the JLA is possible, it HAS to be a world where super-powered beings come about without the influence from Krypton.

Flash, Wonder Woman, Hawkman, all of these characters come about without influence from Superman. It's a world where these fantastical characters exist.

However, in this world Superman is the first of them. And that's how they're dealing with that reaction. After superman, the other meta's will start popping up. Or if they're already there, they've been regarded as urban legends and haven't gone public. That's pretty simple right there.

And neither is a world where Batman exists. That's not the point. These are still action movies with advanced technology, they cant happen right now in our world. But it doesn't matter what u say, Goyer is the writer and the premise for TDKT and MOS are the same and have to do with a real world scenario. As real world as they can get I guess.

Sure that could work but it could also work within Nolans universe, just set after those events.

But if one 'fantasy' thing can occur (the first: aliens coming to Earth), why can't other fantasy things occur as well later?

MOS is simply the event that makes the 'real-world' a fantasy world, because aliens are fantasy. Other unrelated fantasy stuff crops up later.

Is it the coincidence of timing that rubs you the wrong way? (same thing in MCU)

Yeah I see what u mean but yeaaah it's the coincidence of timing. Gotham will have to be realistic as a city but they could use Gothic architecture. I love that idea but I thought the studio wants the tone like Arkham and I thought fans want that too? MOS is very real world when it comes to earth. Space is a different story but earth is just as grounded as Nolans movies. You cant just bring monsters into each Batman, Flash movie just because aliens invaded earth. It's a story of how would our world react if aliens made first contact tomorrow? Do you think New York for example would suddenly be able to have a Clayface or Killer Croc or a Lizard or a transformer or Swamp Thing or Electro JUST because an alien arrived? There needs to be explanations for EVERY SINGLE development and Man-Bat for example would have to be linked to the existence of aliens/Krypton/Oa or whatever planet that's out there that has these kinds of tech or chemicals or whatever. I don't even believe Flash can exist unless Barry is involved with some kind of accident that is alien. Otherwise it's all waaaay too convenient and random and too coincidental.

 

[FeedOnATreeFrog]

But can't you see how Man Of Steel is Superman coming to regular Earth, NOT superpowered Earth? We just had Ra's, you want him again? You wanna see Batman beat up Killer Croc PLAY Arkham Asylum. If they weren't making Man Of Steel so much like TDK movies I'd be all for a fantasy Batman reboot. But the fact that they're trying so hard to make Man Of Steel "What if Superman ACTUALLY existed", the same as "What if Batman ACTUALLY existed" makes it seem redundant and pointless at this time. Keeping Hans Zimmer, Goyer and Nolan...it just feels like the same universe. Yes Snyder has his input as did say, Matthew Vaughn for X-Men First Class...but Singer was producer and his universe was still intact.
Instead of rebooting ANOTHER realistic Batman, why not just USE the realistic Batman? And do Wonder Woman, The Flash, Green Arrow...other stuff instead? The GA knows Batman now, he's set.
Why not wait for Superman coming to a fantasy Earth for fantasy Batman to join him? This is a new type of Superman, they keep saying how realistic it's supposed to be I believe them. The trailer looks like "Superman Begins" .

Superman is coming to regular Earth.

Superman coming to regular Earth makes it superpowered Earth, because Superman is a superpowered fantasy character.

After this, you can start introducing other supernatural stuff, (WW, Flash, GL) and more fantasy villains for Batman (whether it's in the reboot or the continuation of TDKT).

The reason to do the reboot is if Nolan doesn't want TDKT to continue, Bale doesn't come back, etc. That's pretty much it.

 

[Shikamaru]

IMO at this point in time, the Nolan series said a lot about the character of batman and bruce wayne. If you're just going to make new batman films in order for people to see their favourite villains, its not exactly the best basis for a new series. Seeing as how the last series pretty much was dependent on the villains, but it was more or less a rinse and repeat formula.

That's why I think the character's next logical step is either a JL movie (which changes things up) or waiting a while for the next series to build up anticipation of seeing a new take. As fans of batman its easy to say, oh wouldnt it be cool to see the penguin, riddler, croc etc. The main problem is if they pump out a movie every 2 years, is the general audience going to care.

The general audience has been getting a new Bond film every 2 - 4 years since the 1960's and they seemed to care for the most part (I say this so no one replies listing 1 or 2 Bond films that were disliked by the GA).

There is a lot more you can say about the character of Batman. You can address his intellect, detective skills (Sherlock Holme style), his obsession and paranoia, his prep time, the fact that he is a monster in human form (psychologically speaking), the whole "Batman is an urban legend in Gotham" angle, you can further explore the no killing/no guns rule, and the list goes on.

Just throwing this idea out there but how about the first film in the reboot being almost a straight adaptation of The Long Halloween? It doesn't redo the origin, has a lot of villains already established, and it still feels like a introductory story that says a lot about Batman despite not starting with the origin. Having Godfather-esque crime families in Gotham would also make it very distinct from the Nolan films even if the reboot does have a similar type of realism. The Long Halloween is also considered to be one of the most complex Batman stories ever written (in other words, the quality of the Nolan films would immediately be there and established from the get-go).

Reboot is not happening, everyone is already familiar with Batman's origins, even those living under the rock.

It bugs me when people say this. People really don't understand what a reboot is. A reboot simply means that the movie coming out is not in the same continuity as the last movie. It does not mean at all that the origin has to be retold.

I feel that if more people were aware of this, there would be more people in favor of a reboot and/or more people that wouldn't have a problem with a reboot.

 

[FeedOnATreeFrog]

Do you think New York for example would suddenly be able to have a Clayface or Killer Croc or a Lizard or a transformer or Swamp Thing or Electro JUST because an alien arrived?

No. But I also wouldn't have said that humanoid aliens would exist. But we're asking "what if it did?".

Same thing with Clayface. I wouldn't thought that it could exist. But what if it did? What it did only a few years after aliens were discovered?

Both are fantasy at this point; unrelated fantasy phenomena.

I don't even believe Flash can exist unless Barry is involved with some kind of accident that is alien. Otherwise it's all waaaay too convenient and random and too coincidental.

It is coincidental indeed. Somehow I'm okay with this. I'm okay with it in the MCU, Spider-Man movies, etc.

 

[Travesty]

I think that Robinov is being cryptic so that in the event that Bale agrees, he will not be seen as changing his stand.

But then you also forget the completely blunt statement of him saying Nolan wont be attached to JL at all, and then Nolan's reps even confirming that Nolan is out, and doing other movies.

If Nolan is out, you can 100% expect that Bale or JGL wont return. There will be no ties to TDKT, cause that's the way Nolan wants it. WB is in, no way, going to disrupt their relationship with Nolan at this point. He's a solid director, and he makes them TONS of money, so the last thing WB is going to do, is crap on his vision, when he's clearly said he wants his Batman to be a stand-alone. Why would they want to disrupt, or possible break ties with Nolan, just to have some sort of connection to TDKT? It makes no sense.

My worry is that WB is jumping too fast into Justice League without realizing that the build-up solo films are a huge part of the revenue.

I think WB is going to be more focused on a MOS2 and probably a rebooted Batman(2017-2018). I think JL is still in the air, but I don't think they're going to rush it out, especially when TA2 will be coming out in 2015. If we get a JL, it won't be till after 2017 at the earliest, if at all.

 

[shauner111]

It all comes down to this. How do WB and Snyder plan on using Batman if they indeed reboot with a different actor? I can tell you that the rumored Arkham tone that fans also want (me too eventually, but not now)..that is even more of a contradiction to MOS than TDK-Trilogy.

It just doesn't fit.

SO do WB want their Batman to be extremely close to Nolans but with a future that could slowly bring in a Mr. Freeze? That sounds great don't get me wrong but I have two problems.

They want their Batman to be young but in his prime right? Like 2 years into it so it's past the origin...so im assuming he's met the Joker already. They surely won't do another movie where he meets Joker for the first time so it has to be set post-Joker (first meeting). Soooo if Joker is perma-white, that doesn't really mesh with the rules on earth for MOS. Or will the new Joker be like Heath? That sounds stupid as hell. Just bring back Bale thank you.

Second is this. If they ground it like Nolans but maybe change the look of the buildings for Gotham, change the batmobile closer to the comics, enhance Bruce intellect, etc. So basically a little more comic oriented but in a Nolan vibe. Then we could see realistic villains like Riddler, Penguin. OK no problem. It could work out well but in one way you might as well just use Nolans damn continuity! As fine as all that sounds, it might just be a rehash and im sure fans will see right through it.

Would that be a watered down version of Nolans movies? Kind of sounds like Amazing Spider-Man doesn't it? A reboot that's way too quick and it's very similar in tone to the last franchise with the odd adjustment.